The ultimate explanation of the 2 Holy Spirit baptisms

[BCsenior]

I had some fluency in tongues before being baptised in the Spirit.
When I was baptised in the Spirit I didn't know what it was... I was in tears in a church that didnt believe in it, and He made me deeply aware of the Chasm between His Holiness and my depravity so deep that I was totally undone - His presence was powerful. I knew it was a profound experience but
it was not until a day later that He said I had been Baptised in the Spirit.

Were you feeling okay when you wrote this?

 

[BCsenior]

As for tongues I do not believe this particular gift should have a 'sign status'.

If by "sign status" you mean confirmation of receiving the H.S. baptism, I disagree ...
... for I never saw or heard of anyone receiving this baptism w/o tongues confirmation.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Were you feeling okay when you wrote this?

Friend you would be less quick to belittle my testimony if you had walked in my shoes. I could give you more detail but probably not appropriate here.

 

[BCsenior]

Cessational theologies are a human invention to account for the lack of the power of God in the church
after the spirit has long gone due to unbelief.

Boy, is this post of yours ever TRUE!
IMO, most church leaders wanted to be church leaders,
and most of them did NOT have the HS Baptism nor the gifts,
so they made excuses for their debunking of these!
This should be obvious to the church, but alas, it has NOT been!

 

[Carl Emerson]

BCS

I think we formulate things too much...

This is because the Father Son and Holy Spirit in many minds is replaced by the Father Son and the Bible.

Because of this we box how God must move...

Here is a classic case...

I attended a meeting where a prominent evangelist was praying for folks for the Baptism in the Spirit. As I felt nothing - yet was open hearted - yet at the same time didn't buy into just making noises - He pronounced publicly in front of hundreds, that I was blaspheming the Holy Spirit because I wouldn't speak in tongues. Now at the time there was a wave of peace over me because 'upstairs' they could see what was going on and didnt want me hurt by such an abusive ministry.

In subsequent years as my devotional life developed so did some fluency in a tongue. It was just a peaceful and natural occurrence.

Then more years later I was in a Plymouth Bretheren Church (they don't believe in the gifts or the Spirit Baptism) I don't recall what the preacher was saying but all of a sudden His Spirit came upon me and I was reduced to sobbing through the service. I was undone - because I could suddenly see the chasm between His Holiness and my 'righteousness' and the depth of darkness in my wicked heart. I was undone. I was deeply and profoundly repentant.

I knew I was forever changed from this encounter but I didn't have a clue what it was all about. I was born again at 13 so I knew it was something else.

Then the next day He spoke to me and said that I was Baptised in the Spirit !! I had no idea that that was what it was. From then gifts emerged but not tongues.

Now years later again as I wake in the morning and a language literally pours out...
I now have several languages for intercession, rebuke and praise. This is a precious gift but it did not come in the 'conventional' way.

So my message is that we need to let God be God and allow for Him to deal with us individually as He sees fit. We cant demand that He acts according to our limited understanding of scripture, rather rejoice with those who rejoice and look for confirming fruit.

 

[BCsenior]

Then the next day He spoke to me and said that I was Baptised in the Spirit !!
I had no idea that that was what it was. From then gifts emerged but not tongues.

Many thanks for sharing that experience!
Here's a short summary of mine (from a gospel tract) ...
In USA • In 1993, I received the baptism with the Holy Spirit.
(About 9 years prior, I had been “born again” from above
where God’s Spirit comes inside.) During one Sunday night service,
I was up at the front, and everyone was praying for me to
receive this Spirit baptism of spiritual power. Minutes later,
I heard a LOUD angelic choir singing with LOUD instruments!
Later, I kept repeating, “They all had microphones!”.
It turned out that about half of the 15 of us present heard
the angelic choir and the instruments “in the Spirit” …
the proof of this was they certainly were NOT on the tape
recording of the meeting.

 

[SkyWriting]

I had some fluency in tongues before being baptised in the Spirit.

The odds are close to zero.
1 Corinthians 14:2
For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Nice one...

It takes courage to share these events when you know the naysayers are ready to pounce...

 

[Carl Emerson]

The odds are close to zero.
1 Corinthians 14:2
For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.

God isn't limited by odds...

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I attended a meeting where a prominent evangelist was praying for folks for the Baptism in the Spirit. As I felt nothing - yet was open hearted - yet at the same time didn't buy into just making noises - He pronounced publicly in front of hundreds, that I was blaspheming the Holy Spirit because I wouldn't speak in tongues. Now at the time there was a wave of peace over me because 'upstairs' they could see what was going on and didnt want me hurt by such an abusive ministry.

I don't know where that pastor got his ministry qualifications from...probably from a Cornflakes packet!

It is obvious to me that God was not supporting that pastor, and the guy probably was not in the Holy Spirit at all, but was operating from a religious spirit. I think that God is very particular about who He uses, and there is no way that he would use a heretical hypocrite like that! I wouldn't have a religious pelican like that laying hands on me and praying for me. I wouldn't know what might jump out of him into me! Because he was moving in a religious spirit, that would all he would be able to impart to others.

When I assist people to receive the baptism with the Spirit, I never pray for them or lay hands on them, because I am not the baptiser with the Spirit. Nor is that phony hockey puck of a pastor! Jesus is the baptiser with the Spirit and all we do is to assist people to activate their faith to receive Him.

I think a lot of this laying on of hands and imparting stuff to people is just a load of what comes out of the backside of a horse! The power of the Holy Spirit in us is for the preaching of the gospel to the unsaved, not for some witchcraft stuff in which we have some sort of power that flows through us to impart something to others.

I know that Peter and John laid hands on the Samaritan believers for them to receive the Holy Spirit, but that is just one narrative event and does not provide enough support for all this laying on of hands that goes on in some churches today.

But there are Scriptural reasons for the laying on of hands - for blessing, and commission to ministry. But these do not involve a transfer of power from one person to another.

There is a major invasion of the occult happening in the Charismatic movement at present, and we must be very careful and vigilant to really check that what we do in ministry to others is in strict accordance with Scripture.

 

[CharismaticLady]

I don't know where that pastor got his ministry qualifications from...probably from a Cornflakes packet!

LOL I agree!

 

[Carl Emerson]

I don't know where that pastor got his ministry qualifications from...probably from a Cornflakes packet!

It is obvious to me that God was not supporting that pastor, and the guy probably was not in the Holy Spirit at all, but was operating from a religious spirit. I think that God is very particular about who He uses, and there is no way that he would use a heretical hypocrite like that! I wouldn't have a religious pelican like that laying hands on me and praying for me. I wouldn't know what might jump out of him into me! Because he was moving in a religious spirit, that would all he would be able to impart to others.

When I assist people to receive the baptism with the Spirit, I never pray for them or lay hands on them, because I am not the baptiser with the Spirit. Nor is that phony hockey puck of a pastor! Jesus is the baptiser with the Spirit and all we do is to assist people to activate their faith to receive Him.

I think a lot of this laying on of hands and imparting stuff to people is just a load of what comes out of the backside of a horse! The power of the Holy Spirit in us is for the preaching of the gospel to the unsaved, not for some witchcraft stuff in which we have some sort of power that flows through us to impart something to others.

I know that Peter and John laid hands on the Samaritan believers for them to receive the Holy Spirit, but that is just one narrative event and does not provide enough support for all this laying on of hands that goes on in some churches today.

But there are Scriptural reasons for the laying on of hands - for blessing, and commission to ministry. But these do not involve a transfer of power from one person to another.

There is a major invasion of the occult happening in the Charismatic movement at present, and we must be very careful and vigilant to really check that what we do in ministry to others is in strict accordance with Scripture.

I don't know where that pastor got his ministry qualifications from...probably from a Cornflakes packet!

It is obvious to me that God was not supporting that pastor, and the guy probably was not in the Holy Spirit at all, but was operating from a religious spirit. I think that God is very particular about who He uses, and there is no way that he would use a heretical hypocrite like that! I wouldn't have a religious pelican like that laying hands on me and praying for me. I wouldn't know what might jump out of him into me! Because he was moving in a religious spirit, that would all he would be able to impart to others.

When I assist people to receive the baptism with the Spirit, I never pray for them or lay hands on them, because I am not the baptiser with the Spirit. Nor is that phony hockey puck of a pastor! Jesus is the baptiser with the Spirit and all we do is to assist people to activate their faith to receive Him.

I think a lot of this laying on of hands and imparting stuff to people is just a load of what comes out of the backside of a horse! The power of the Holy Spirit in us is for the preaching of the gospel to the unsaved, not for some witchcraft stuff in which we have some sort of power that flows through us to impart something to others.

I know that Peter and John laid hands on the Samaritan believers for them to receive the Holy Spirit, but that is just one narrative event and does not provide enough support for all this laying on of hands that goes on in some churches today.

But there are Scriptural reasons for the laying on of hands - for blessing, and commission to ministry. But these do not involve a transfer of power from one person to another.

There is a major invasion of the occult happening in the Charismatic movement at present, and we must be very careful and vigilant to really check that what we do in ministry to others is in strict accordance with Scripture.

He was not a Pastor - He was very high profile in Christian circles and you will know him well but I dont want to get into names.

 

[Aussie Pete]

I don't know where that pastor got his ministry qualifications from...probably from a Cornflakes packet!

It is obvious to me that God was not supporting that pastor, and the guy probably was not in the Holy Spirit at all, but was operating from a religious spirit. I think that God is very particular about who He uses, and there is no way that he would use a heretical hypocrite like that! I wouldn't have a religious pelican like that laying hands on me and praying for me. I wouldn't know what might jump out of him into me! Because he was moving in a religious spirit, that would all he would be able to impart to others.

When I assist people to receive the baptism with the Spirit, I never pray for them or lay hands on them, because I am not the baptiser with the Spirit. Nor is that phony hockey puck of a pastor! Jesus is the baptiser with the Spirit and all we do is to assist people to activate their faith to receive Him.

I think a lot of this laying on of hands and imparting stuff to people is just a load of what comes out of the backside of a horse! The power of the Holy Spirit in us is for the preaching of the gospel to the unsaved, not for some witchcraft stuff in which we have some sort of power that flows through us to impart something to others.

I know that Peter and John laid hands on the Samaritan believers for them to receive the Holy Spirit, but that is just one narrative event and does not provide enough support for all this laying on of hands that goes on in some churches today.

But there are Scriptural reasons for the laying on of hands - for blessing, and commission to ministry. But these do not involve a transfer of power from one person to another.

There is a major invasion of the occult happening in the Charismatic movement at present, and we must be very careful and vigilant to really check that what we do in ministry to others is in strict accordance with Scripture.

I'm glad you've seen the truth of occult deceptions. It's also prevalent in Pentecostal circles, starting with the Azusa Street revival. Many Pentecostals seem unable to distinguish real from false manifestations, hence the gullible embrace of the "Toronto Blessing". I was greatly blessed to be baptised in Holy Spirit on my own. I'd rejected a number of "opportunities" because I was suspicious - and sometimes rightly so. I was a member of a Pentecostal church for 5 years. What I saw put me off for life!

 

[Carl Emerson]

I'm glad you've seen the truth of occult deceptions. It's also prevalent in Pentecostal circles, starting with the Azusa Street revival. Many Pentecostals seem unable to distinguish real from false manifestations, hence the gullible embrace of the "Toronto Blessing". I was greatly blessed to be baptised in Holy Spirit on my own. I'd rejected a number of "opportunities" because I was suspicious - and sometimes rightly so. I was a member of a Pentecostal church for 5 years. What I saw put me off for life!

To be fair, and honesty is important because it is so easy to jump on a critical bandwaggon. When the Totonto thing happened and our pastor at the time was decked every time he tried to preach, after about 4 weeks he asked folks to give testimony of how God was working in relationships. Person after person went forward and testified of healing of deep hurts in family relationships. So I reserve my opinion having seen what Satan would never do in the midst of it all... To balance that, we had a missionary return from Colombia seeing what was going on. He had been in a revival in the 30's - he had this to say... Last time I saw God move sovereignly I remember a 14 year old girl being catapulted to the front to repent of her sins. Then he said no more and sat down... The message was clear - repentance is a sign of a genuine move of God. His ministry was credited with more than one million souls.

 

[BCsenior]

I was a member of a Pentecostal church for 5 years.
What I saw put me off for life!

What could be more obvious than ...
Man's behavior does NOT invalidate God's spiritual Truths,
E.G. the Holy Spirit Baptism and the 9 spiritual power gifts are for today!

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I'm glad you've seen the truth of occult deceptions. It's also prevalent in Pentecostal circles, starting with the Azusa Street revival. Many Pentecostals seem unable to distinguish real from false manifestations, hence the gullible embrace of the "Toronto Blessing". I was greatly blessed to be baptised in Holy Spirit on my own. I'd rejected a number of "opportunities" because I was suspicious - and sometimes rightly so. I was a member of a Pentecostal church for 5 years. What I saw put me off for life!

I was more fortunate because my initial involvement with the Pentecostal church was in the late 1960s before all the wacky stuff became mainstream. I may have been fortunate that the churches I was involved with had pastors who were men of prayer and of the Word and did not really align themselves with the mainstream even in those days. But when I relocated to another city in 1970, I joined up with a Charismatic church, and by 1978, I became very disillusioned because of church politics, gossiping, spiritual abuse, and false promises of healing, and a trend away from preaching the true gospel of Christ. It was a church that maintained it was at the cutting edge of what God was doing in that city, and that the other Charismatic churches should come under its banner. Looking back, I see that as arrogance and it is no wonder that the church went through a major division in the early 1980s and ceased to exist.

I then joined an Anglican church, and met a whole group of Anglican charismatics. They were a totally different breed of believers, very loving and welcoming and Christ-centred, and none of the wacky stuff at all. I'd fellowship with a group like that any day!

When I relocated again to do my university and teacher-training, I joined a Baptist church and found that they loved the Lord, and I settled in there, and in another Baptist church where I went for my first teaching job. I found nothing of the arrogance that I experienced with the Charismatic church, and found that the people were just ordinary people who loved the Lord, getting on with their lives.

When I got to Auckland, I joined a Presbyterian church, and became an elder there, and stayed there for 23 years. They accepted me and gave me opportunities to preach the Word, and accepted everything that I said.

Now, that I am in Christchurch, I went along to a union church (Presbyterian/Methodist) and found them very welcoming and Christ-centred. And that is all I want in a church. And I might get some opportunities to preach the Word as well.

So, my foundation is Puritan Reformed and continuist, and it works for me. It means that I can fellowship in a range of different churches and be trans-denominational in my attitude. I think I'm a small church person, because it is more intimate, and better opportunities for making a meaningful contribution to the ministry.

I think that worship is much more than standing for half an hour singing along to a pseudo-professional performance from the stage at the front, which happens in many Charismatic churches. Even fellowshiping over a cup of tea at the end of the service is as much worship as singing the hymns, praying and praising, and hearing the preaching of the Word. Sharing the gospel with the unsaved is worship, sharing a testimony in the service is also worship. Engaging in personal prayer in my own room with just God as company is as much worship as everything else.

 

[Aussie Pete]

To be fair, and honesty is important because it is so easy to jump on a critical bandwaggon. When the Totonto thing happened and our pastor at the time was decked every time he tried to preach, after about 4 weeks he asked folks to give testimony of how God was working in relationships. Person after person went forward and testified of healing of deep hurts in family relationships. So I reserve my opinion having seen what Satan would never do in the midst of it all... To balance that, we had a missionary return from Colombia seeing what was going on. He had been in a revival in the 30's - he had this to say... Last time I saw God move sovereignly I remember a 14 year old girl being catapulted to the front to repent of her sins. Then he said no more and sat down... The message was clear - repentance is a sign of a genuine move of God. His ministry was credited with more than one million souls.

I have the following reasons to reject the Toronto Blessing:

• I saw a video of the initial meeting where the "new move of God" was launched. It was out and out hypnosis.
• It defies every description of the work and person of the Holy Spirit as declared by Jesus (John 16)
• Faith comes by hearing, not by being physically thrown out of your seat (I knew someone who declared they were saved on that basis only)
• It defies the instruction of Paul, "Let everything be done in an orderly manner (1 Corinthians 14.40). The meetings that I attended were a circus
• The main proponent of the TB told his audience not to pray. "Do your praying at home" Wrong x 10
• "Holy Ghost bartender"? Spare me
• There was power for sure. People were getting out of their cars at Pensacola, falling to the ground and assuming they were saved. Point 3 again. The power was surely not of God.
  
• One of the main Pentecostal denominations in Australia announced that the Holy Spirit had replaced Jesus. Someone I knew came back from a conference with that gem.
• Where is the fruit? The Christians I know who were infected are cold and aloof, full of spiritual pride as if they have secret knowledge that I do not have. Yet the meetings are flat and dull - lifeless.
• A pastor from India went to one meeting. He told me it was exactly like the meetings of Hindu priests in India - he was one before he got saved. They hype themselves up to gain more power.

We spent months checking this out. An ex-drug addict, someone I used to share a house with, told me it just like some of his drug parties and tripping out that he experienced. He was dubious but his pastor said that it was ok. He invited me to visit his church and I did. One of the members was in hospital with a broken skull as a result of being "slain in the spirit". Wrong spirit.

I'll leave it there.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I have the following reasons to reject the Toronto Blessing:

• I saw a video of the initial meeting where the "new move of God" was launched. It was out and out hypnosis.
• It defies every description of the work and person of the Holy Spirit as declared by Jesus (John 16)
• Faith comes by hearing, not by being physically thrown out of your seat (I knew someone who declared they were saved on that basis only)
• It defies the instruction of Paul, "Let everything be done in an orderly manner (1 Corinthians 14.40). The meetings that I attended were a circus
• The main proponent of the TB told his audience not to pray. "Do your praying at home" Wrong x 10
• "Holy Ghost bartender"? Spare me
• There was power for sure. People were getting out of their cars at Pensacola, falling to the ground and assuming they were saved. Point 3 again. The power was surely not of God.
  
• One of the main Pentecostal denominations in Australia announced that the Holy Spirit had replaced Jesus. Someone I knew came back from a conference with that gem.
• Where is the fruit? The Christians I know who were infected are cold and aloof, full of spiritual pride as if they have secret knowledge that I do not have. Yet the meetings are flat and dull - lifeless.
• A pastor from India went to one meeting. He told me it was exactly like the meetings of Hindu priests in India - he was one before he got saved. They hype themselves up to gain more power.

We spent months checking this out. An ex-drug addict, someone I used to share a house with, told me it just like some of his drug parties and tripping out that he experienced. He was dubious but his pastor said that it was ok. He invited me to visit his church and I did. One of the members was in hospital with a broken skull as a result of being "slain in the spirit". Wrong spirit.

I'll leave it there.

I have no problem with your anaylsis, but He will not stand back and do nothing about it. For this reason I see a mixture of deception and the truth.

 

[Aussie Pete]

I have no problem with your anaylsis, but He will not stand back and do nothing about it. For this reason I see a mixture of deception and the truth.

Satan will throw in a little truth if it suits his purpose. He quoted God's word to Jesus in the wilderness.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I doubt if Satan is in the business of healing family relationships...