The ultimate explanation of the 2 Holy Spirit baptisms

BCsenior

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My view is that the Holy Spirit and all his potential was indwelling you all the time over the five years, and it was after that period that you realised that you were filled with the Holy Spirit and able to release Him out of you.
IMO, all of Pentecostalism would say this is total nonsense.
 
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BCsenior

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My view is that the Holy Spirit and all his potential was indwelling you all the time over the five years, and it was after that period that you realised that you were filled with the Holy Spirit and able to release Him out of you.
OK, what do you think about the 2 lists in post #34?
 
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BCsenior

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In the second column you list, you suggest that the Spirit simply comes upon a person in order to have the gifts in Acts 2, 8, and 10. This is not the case.
No, the Spirit comes upon a person when Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit.
 
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BCsenior

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“one Lord, one faith, one baptism,” Ephesians 4:5 (NASB95)
Which baptism is the "one baptism"?
"the doctrine of baptisms" (Hebrews 6:2)
Which baptisms? How many baptisms? (4 are obviously stated in the NT)
 
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BCsenior

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What finally convinced me was what Paul said in Galatians - "Having begin with the Spirit, why are you wanting to continue in the flesh?" (my paraphrase).
This is obviously just a re-hash of what Paul taught in Romans 6 when he stated:
If you choose to be a slave of (habitual) sin, you face eternal death (6:16).
If you choose to be a slave of obedience, you will be considered righteous (6:16)
If you present yourself as a slave of righteousness, you will be considered holy (6:19).
 
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BCsenior

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I sought and received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit Christmas Eve, 1974.
It was a blessed experience but there were no physical manifestations.
You didn't speak at least a few words in tongues?
 
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Maria Billingsley

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OK, what's your take on John 20:22 ...
when Jesus said to His 11 disciples, "Receive the Holy Spirit."?

OK, for a compromise, how about we agree that
the work of the Holy Spirit is one and a half?
Haaa!
I did cover my thoughts on John 20:2 in the last post. The fact that only 10 were present, missing Thomas, led me to believe that this was not that which was prophesied in Joel. I see this as an opening of their understanding for what He was about to tell them. The Comforter did not fully come to dwell in the believer until Jesus Christ of Nazareth ascended. Anyway, I think it comes down to tongues. This is the only way to explain why a lot of Christians get this ability well after the fact. I have my options on this as well but would rather not address it here.
Blessings
 
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No, the Spirit comes upon a person when Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit.

I just showed that it was not solely the case. They also "received" the Spirit, and or they were "filled," as well (as I pointed out with the text). I highlighted the words in red within the verses for you to see.
 
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dqhall

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There are two basic fundamental Christian experiences: the most important is obviously salvation, and then next is the baptism with the Holy Spirit. Nothing can be done to earn either one!
The 1st experience is when a person is baptized into the church, resulting in being “born again”
(it occurs when the Holy Spirit comes INSIDE). The 2nd experience is when a born-again person receives “the baptism with the Holy Spirit” (and this only occurs when the Holy Spirit
comes UPON a person) and the person is FILLED with the Holy Spirit.

The problem with accepting the reality of the 2 Holy Spirit baptisms is that churches today believe
so differently than the NT churches! Satan has been successful in deceiving the church about several things, and this includes the baptism with the Holy Spirit and the 9 spiritual gifts (1 Corinthians 12:1-11). Prophecy, tongues and the other gifts will vanish away when that which is perfect (Jesus) has come. Then the gifts will no longer be needed, but they are needed now.

FIRST It all began hereJesus gave the Holy Spirit to His 11 disciples

“Peace be with you. As the Father has sent Me, I am sending you.”
Then He breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.”
(John 20:21-22, NLT)
“… it was then that they were born again of the Spirit. This is when they received true and full faith … spiritual life.” (The Applied New Testament Commentary, 1996, Dr. Thomas Hale, medical missionary to Nepal)

It is the Holy Spirit who baptizes new believers into the church
“For by one (Holy) Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.”
(Paul, 1 Corinthians 12:13, NASB)


New believers, all born-again Christians, receive the Holy Spirit INSIDE
(
John 14:16-23, John 15:4-5, Romans 8:11, 1 Corinthians 3:16,
Galatians 4:6, 2 Timothy 1:14, 1 John 3:24, 1 John 4:12-16).


“Anyone who is thirsty may come to Me! Anyone who believes in Me may come and drink! For the Scriptures declare, ‘Rivers of living water will flow from his heart.’ ” When He said “living water”, he was speaking of the (Holy) Spirit, who would be given to everyone believing in Him.” (Jesus, John 7:37-39, NLT)

Meanwhile, John the Baptist was prophesying …
It is Jesus Himself who will be baptizing believers with the Holy Spirit
(Matthew 3:11, Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16, John 1:33).


“He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ ”
(John 1:33).

As usual, John is more in-depth about spiritual things!
Jesus will “baptize with the Holy Spirit” (some people, not all)
… when He sends the Holy Spirit “upon” whomever He chooses!


SECOND Jesus “promised” His disciples that they would receive “the gift”
of the baptism with the Holy Spirit, which would result in spiritual power


● “Behold, I send the promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high.” (Jesus, Luke 24:49)

● “Do not leave Jerusalem until the Father sends you the gift He promised, as I told you before [Luke 24:49]. John baptized with water, but in just a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.” (Jesus, Acts 1:4, NLT)

● “But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you. And you will be My witnesses, telling people about Me everywhere …” (Jesus, Acts 1:8, NLT)

The baptism with the Holy Spirit was the gift Jesus had promised. This occurs when the Holy Spirit comes upon a person and he/she is filled with the Holy Spirit, which results in spiritual power.
This “power” that Jesus gives is usually an anointing for some type of ministry.


THIRD Jesus’ 11 disciples surely witnessed to other people and
although it is not mentioned, some surely became born-again Christians


“During this time, when about 120 believers (footnote: brothers) were together in one place, Peter stood up and addressed them. “Brothers …” (Acts 1:15, NLT)

“While Jesus’ disciples were waiting for the gift of the Holy Spirit, they all joined together constantly in prayer. It is mainly through praye that we obtain the power of the Holy Spirit (Luke 11:13) …
In addition to Jesus’ main disciples, there were in Jerusalem at that time about 120 other believers. ... Many Christians say that sometime after having put faith in Christ and having received the Holy Spirit the first time, they then have experienced a new filling of the Spirit. These Christians call this new experience of the Spirit a “second blessing” or “the baptism with the Spirit”. They are filled with the Spirit in a new and deeper way, and they receive a new power and zeal”
(The Applied New Testament Commentary, 1996, Dr. Thomas Hale, medical missionary to Nepal)

FOURTH Days later, Jesus’ 12 disciples (and others) experienced the Day of Pentecost

“On the day of Pentecost all the (120) believers were meeting together in one place. Suddenly, there was a sound from heaven like the roaring of a mighty windstorm, and it filled the house where they were sitting. Then what looked like flames or tongues of fire appeared and settled on each of them. And everyone present was filled with the Holy Spirit and began speaking with other tongues, as the Holy Spirit gave them this ability.”
(Acts 2:1-4, NLT)


Peter tried to explain all of this to other Jews who were present
“And the Father, as He had promised, gave Him (Jesus) the Holy Spirit to pour out upon us, just as you see and hear today … Each of you must repent of your sins and turn to God, and be (water) baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. This promise is to you, and to your children, and even to the Gentiles – all who have been called by the Lord our God.”
(Acts 2:33-39, NLT)

To repeat with emphasis re: the baptism with the Holy Spirit …
“This promise is to you, and to your children, and even to the Gentiles –-
all who have been called by the Lord our God.”
(Acts 2:39, NLT)

“Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them (the high priest and others) … Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated and untrained men, they marvelled ... And seeing the man who had been healed standing with them, they could say nothing against it ... For, indeed, that a notable miracle has been done through them is evident to all …” (Acts 4:8-16)

Before Pentecost, most probably all of the 120 had been water baptized. Please notice that
the promise and the gift refer to what the 120 believers received on the Day of Pentecost,
which was the baptism with the Holy Spirit … as the Spirit came UPON them and they were
FILLED with the Holy Spirit to over-flowing! Any of the 120 who had NOT yet been born-again,
must have received both Spirit baptisms simultaneously! Yes, some people today all over the world receive both at the same time.
In Acts 12 Herod Agrippa met some representatives of Tyre and Sidon about their complaints or concerns. He made a speech and they liked what they heard. They stated Agrippa was a god and not a man. Since Agrippa did not give God the glory, he was struck with infirmity and died.

Whether you deserve the Holy Spirit or not, your salvation is dependent on your obedience to God.
 
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In Acts 12 Herod Agrippa met some representatives of Tyre and Sidon about their complaints or concerns. He made a speech and they liked what they heard. They stated Agrippa was a god and not a man. Since Agrippa did not give God the glory, he was struck with infirmity and died.

Whether you deserve the Holy Spirit or not, your salvation is dependent on your obedience to God.

No true. The Bible says that obedience to God (i.e. good works) glorifies God.

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 5:16).

Why?

Because it is the Lord that does the good work through us (Philippians 2:13).
 
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Johan_1988

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It has passed the test as far as I'm concerned. It has the signature of God all over it. I do not believe any of the verses that have been deleted from the newer versions were never there to begin with. It is not that they were added, but that they were deleted. Another case in point is 1 John 5:7. Non-trinitarians deleted key words.

I have studied the works of Dr. Ivan Panin, especially his theory on the signature of God. The number 7. Just on the last verses of Mark, which just a small section of his study, here it is presented by Dr. Chuck Missler:

Just on the last verses of Mark:

I agree, people go to much on the so called archeological evidence, simply because they are older does not mean they are more accurate. All those deleted verses are in no way any conflict with any other doctrine or scripture and actually adds a wonderful revelations.

If you would look at those people whom actually translate the bible you will be left to question their motive. A lot of it is Satan's attempt to dilute the word of God and change its meaning. Watch this you tube video to understand some of the origins of new Bible translations:

 
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Johan_1988

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It has passed the test as far as I'm concerned. It has the signature of God all over it. I do not believe any of the verses that have been deleted from the newer versions were never there to begin with. It is not that they were added, but that they were deleted. Another case in point is 1 John 5:7. Non-trinitarians deleted key words.

I have studied the works of Dr. Ivan Panin, especially his theory on the signature of God. The number 7. Just on the last verses of Mark, which just a small section of his study, here it is presented by Dr. Chuck Missler:

Just on the last verses of Mark:

I agree, people go to much on the so called archeological evidence , simply because they are older does not mean they are more accurate. All those deleted verses are in no way any conflict with any other doctrine or scripture and actually adds a wonderful revelations.

If you would look at those people whom actually translate the bible you will be left to question their motive. A lot of it is Satan's attempt to dilute the word of God and change its meaning. Watch this you tube video to understand some of the origins of new Bible translations:

 
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It's not just Charismatics. The so-called Toronto Blessing was a complete deception, Pentecostals and Charismatics alike. Ignorance is not bliss, it is dangerous. We who are born again have the indwelling Holy Spirit. We can receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit at conversion or later on (about 3-1/2 years in my case). Lack of correct teaching, overemphasising gifts instead of fruit are commonplace. That does not mean that the gift is invalid. There is also a great temptation to spiritual pride with those who have the gifts. Watchman Nee encouraged Christians to get established in Christ before seeking the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. He saw the dangers.
Actually, I don't see anything in the New Testament that mentions seeking the baptism with the Spirit. There are definite references about seeking God and finding Him. And there is strong support for the baptism with the Spirit occurring with conversion to Christ. In fact, Paul, in Galatians calls conversion receiving the Spirit.

I think it is a mistake to put the early church on a pedestal as if it was any better than our present churches. The facts are that before the end of the first century it was full of heresies, false prophets and teaching, and divisions. Much like many of our modern churches, and not just Pentecostal and Charismatic.
 
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IMO, all of Pentecostalism would say this is total nonsense.
"all" of Pentecostalism? You must have a pretty effective crystal ball to know that! :)
 
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OK, what do you think about the 2 lists in post #34?
Different ways of saying the same thing. None of the references in your list 2 contradict Paul's statements in list 1.

The Holy Spirit indwells the believer at conversion. He does not leave the believer and come back again with a second blessing. He is there, and it is with faith and experience that we learn to work with the Holy Spirit to manifest His power to get converted when we share the gospel with them.
 
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CharismaticLady

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I agree, people go to much on the so called archeological evidence found in the dead sea scrolls, simply because they are older does not mean they are more accurate. All those deleted verses are in no way any conflict with any other doctrine or scripture and actually adds a wonderful revelations.

If you would look at those people whom actually translate the bible you will be left to question their motive. A lot of it is Satan's attempt to dilute the word of God and change its meaning. Watch this you tube video to understand some of the origins of new Bible translations:



The Dead Sea Scrolls only contain Old Testament fragments, except for the Book of Esther.
 
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Ecclesiastian

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Can someone tell me why the gift of tongues is so focused upon in charismatic groups, when Paul goes into detail explaining that God gives to different people different gifts, and he even asks rhetorically "Not all speak in tongues, do they?". When I quoted this to a Pentecostal friend of mine he simply said he knew about the verse and proceeded to quote Acts 2 to me again.
 
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CharismaticLady

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Can someone tell me why the gift of tongues is so focused upon in charismatic groups, when Paul goes into detail explaining that God gives to different people different gifts, and he even asks rhetorically "Not all speak in tongues, do they?". When I quoted this to a Pentecostal friend of mine he simply said he knew about the verse and proceeded to quote Acts 2 to me again.

It is because speaking in tongues is the most common and all believers are given this ability. It is part of the Christian's armor of God to pray in the Spirit. BUT there is another ability that is also referred to as speaking in tongues and is only given to a few in a congregation. That is the gift Paul referred to when asking "Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?" Here is the difference, and keep an open mind because not even many Pentecostals know this. Evidently your friend didn't. You might want to copy this and give it to him. :)


The Sign of Tongues (For the Individual)

Mark 16:
16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

You will notice in the above verse that all who believe receive the ability to speak in tongues. This is what Pentecostals rightly call prayer language/praise language. Also notice that interpretation of tongues is NOT mentioned. That is because this is TO God, and He understands already. These abilities were given to those on the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2. But these same people two chapters later in Acts 4:29-31 received the gifts of 1 Corinthians 12 for the profit of all.

The Gift of Tongues (Profit of all in the congregation)

The second ability is for ministry in the congregation and is found in 1 Corinthians 12. It is for corporate use and is like an office. Therefore not everyone is given the gift of diverse kinds of tongues, and not everyone is given the partnering office of interpreter of tongues. Unlike the prayer language that is TO God, the gift of diverse kinds of tongues that requires interpretation is receiving messages FROM God. Those messages from God are in 1 Corinthians 14:6 "by revelation, by knowledge, by prophesying, or by teaching. At the end of 1 Corinthians 12 we see that these few people with this gift of tongues and interpretation of tongues are appointed. It, indeed, is an office.

28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?

So never let anyone try and teach you that not everyone is given the ability to pray in tongues. If you are a true repentant believer, you have that authority. There is only one prerequisite - receiving the Holy Spirit when you are born again. Unfortunately, not everyone calling themselves a Christian, and calling Jesus, Lord is saved. Matthew 7:21-23. First you must repent of all sin. Only then will Jesus give you His powerful Spirit of Christ that overcomes all the works of the devil. Acts 2:38-39.

I was in church for 30 years before I truly repented and was baptized in the Holy Spirit from the top of my head to the bottom of my feet. Overnight all my desire to sin was GONE! As far as gifts - God is generous! What is more, before that night not one prayer in 30 years was answered, let alone gifts. Since then 100% of my prayers are answered.
 
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