The ultimate explanation of the 2 Holy Spirit baptisms

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Listen pal, I am very well endowed to read and understand the English language.
I know what she said ... and it is very harmful to anyone
who is trying to understand the 2 Spirit baptisms.
So, I am not going to stand idly by while she teaches grievous error about it.
With what is coming, it is very important for people to understand what's happening.

All I am doing is giving my opinion. I don't have the confidence that you have that everything I say here is the absolute truth. Because I am baptised with the Spirit and pray in tongues, how I came to receive it is a dead issue. I have been quite clear in my posts as to my position on the baptism with the Spirit and the place of tongues within the Spirit-filled life.

But I will not be drawn into the tit for tat personal stuff that is being said on this thread. Once we lose respect for each other and start putting the knife in, the discussion is killed stone dead.

I wouldn't presume to say that I have the complete and utter truth about these things. I can only go on what I have learned, experienced and observed over the 50 years I have been associated with Charismatic and Evangelical churches.

Tongues is just another tool in the Spirit's toolbox, in the same way that a socket set is in a mechanic's toolbox. When there is a need for its use, then it is there to be used. In the case of many believers, it remains in the toolbox and is never used. That doesn't mean that it is not available for every believer. And in the same way that to be a mechanic one must always use the socket set is wrong, requiring a believer to always speak in tongues to be saved is equally wrong. But then you know that already.

Anyway, if a believer believes that he or she has to speak in tongues in order to know that they are saved and baptised in the Spirit, so what? According to their faith be it unto them! They are not going to lose their salvation if they believe that. But if they use that belief and make it applicable to every other believer, then they are in error and forcing others to have their personal brand of faith, especially if they put it forward to other as "the truth".

 

[BCsenior]

Anyway, if a believer believes that he or she has to speak in tongues in order to know that they are saved and baptised in the Spirit, so what? According to their faith be it unto them! They are not going to lose their salvation if they believe that. But if they use that belief and make it applicable to every other believer, then they are in error and forcing others to have their personal brand of faith, especially if they put it forward to other as "the truth".

Aren't most posts here for the benefit of all readers so they can learn spiritual Truths?
Unfortunately, some posts can cause great harm to a person's understanding,
and even possibly to his/her ultimate salvation.
So, that's why we tend to come against false doctrines,
and warn people about any false doctrines that are being taught.
The churches have spread enough false doctrines ... for several reasons!
Since most church members have been led astray by the hirelings,
they do really need to be taught the Truth!.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Aren't most posts here for the benefit of all readers so they can learn spiritual Truths?
Unfortunately, some posts can cause great harm to a person's understanding,
and even possibly to his/her ultimate salvation.
So, that's why we tend to come against false doctrines,
and warn people about any false doctrines that are being taught.
The churches have spread enough false doctrines ... for several reasons!
Since most church members have been led astray by the hirelings,
they do really need to be taught the Truth!.

The positive aspect of this forum is that people can share their views, opinions and experiences for the benefit of others, or just for the enjoyment of a good discussion. It is not really designed to be a "soap-box" for an individual's preaching of "the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth".

What makes our discussions meaningful and useful, even though we do have major disagreements with each other, and all you have to do is to read my exchanges with Major1 and the other brother who has major disagreements with me concerning tongues and prophecy. But we conduct our debates with absolute respect for each other. We don't have to agree or compromise our own beliefs to maintain respect for the beliefs and opinions of others. I went to 30 pages of debate with Hammster over predestination and election, and even though we never came to an agreement, we both were blessed with the respectful, though lively debate over those pages.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Aren't most posts here for the benefit of all readers so they can learn spiritual Truths?
Unfortunately, some posts can cause great harm to a person's understanding,
and even possibly to his/her ultimate salvation.
So, that's why we tend to come against false doctrines,
and warn people about any false doctrines that are being taught.
The churches have spread enough false doctrines ... for several reasons!
Since most church members have been led astray by the hirelings,
they do really need to be taught the Truth!.

These are pretty generalised comments. It was like my mother who used to sit in her sitting room and say, All of [our home city] think that the way the council have renewed the town centre is rubbish!" In actual fact, it was just her and her close friend who thought that way. When I asked others, they didn't care one way or the other.

There is a danger in saying, "Everyone is out of step except you and me, and I'm not sure about you!" None of us has the full truth. We have different experiences, learning, religious environment, live in different cultures, and have been taught different in our formative years. None of us can say that we have the absolute truth and that everyone else is not as correct as we are. I have been in the faith since 1966, and in the twilight of my life and still, I cannot say that I know all the truth about the ways of God and what the Scriptures actually means in every case. I am still learning new things in the Scriptures and seeing fresh insights. Much of our religious debates are like saying "Six is the truth, but half a dozen is not truth."

 

[CharismaticLady]

YOU said that one must speak in tongues:
-- to be saved
-- to have received the Holy Spirit INSIDE
-- to be a BAC

... and I'm NOT lying ... for I can read and understand English.

You quoted me as saying:
... speaking in tongues is the most common
(of the 9 spiritual gift in 1 Corinthians 12)
and all believers are given this ability.

I never said all believers receives the tongues of 1 Corinthians 12. I said all believers receive the tongues of Mark 16:16-18. You have me teaching the opposite of what I do teach. You have taken three disjointed phrases from different paragraphs and reconnect them to say a blatant lie.

Here is my post: Let other's see if you are telling the truth, or creating fake news.

It is because speaking in tongues is the most common and all believers are given this ability. It is part of the Christian's armor of God to pray in the Spirit. BUT there is another ability that is also referred to as speaking in tongues and is only given to a few in a congregation. That is the gift Paul referred to when asking "Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?" Here is the difference, and keep an open mind because not even many Pentecostals know this. Evidently your friend didn't. You might want to copy this and give it to him.


The Sign of Tongues (For the Individual)

Mark 16:
16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

You will notice in the above verse that all who believe receive the ability to speak in tongues. This is what Pentecostals rightly call prayer language/praise language. Also notice that interpretation of tongues is NOT mentioned. That is because this is TO God, and He understands already. These abilities were given to those on the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2. But these same people two chapters later in Acts 4:29-31 received the gifts of 1 Corinthians 12 for the profit of all.

The Gift of Tongues (Profit of all in the congregation)

The second ability is for ministry in the congregation and is found in 1 Corinthians 12. It is for corporate use and is like an office. Therefore not everyone is given the gift of diverse kinds of tongues, and not everyone is given the partnering office of interpreter of tongues. Unlike the prayer language that is TO God, the gift of diverse kinds of tongues that requires interpretation is receiving messages FROM God. Those messages from God are in 1 Corinthians 14:6 "by revelation, by knowledge, by prophesying, or by teaching. At the end of 1 Corinthians 12 we see that these few people with this gift of tongues and interpretation of tongues are appointed. It, indeed, is an office.

28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?

So never let anyone try and teach you that not everyone is given the ability to pray in tongues. If you are a true repentant believer, you have that authority. There is only one prerequisite - receiving the Holy Spirit when you are born again. Unfortunately, not everyone calling themselves a Christian, and calling Jesus, Lord is saved. Matthew 7:21-23. First you must repent of all sin. Only then will Jesus give you His powerful Spirit of Christ that overcomes all the works of the devil. Acts 2:38-39.

I was in church for 30 years before I truly repented and was baptized in the Holy Spirit from the top of my head to the bottom of my feet. Overnight all my desire to sin was GONE! As far as gifts - God is generous! What is more, before that night not one prayer in 30 years was answered, let alone gifts. Since then 100% of my prayers are answered.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Shall I look up the post where you said that you know all spiritual things? (I'm paraphrasing)
I'm not trying to teach you anything in this post ... I'm just warning the other members.

I quoted 1 Corinthians 2:
10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[CharismaticLady]

I don't think she is saying that at all! I have had many good conversations with her and she has never said that one has to speak in tongues to be saved, nor has she said that a person necessarily has to speak in tongues to be baptised with the Spirit.

What she is saying is that tongues is the most common and accessible gift that one can received, and that all believers have the ability to speak in tongues, but that doesn't mean that all believers are required to receive it.

You are exactly right Oscarr, @BCsenior seems to be scanning my posts and clipping out pieces here and there to make up nonsense. And then says he's warning everybody about me! That is just wicked. You know what I believe. If he actually absorbed my posts, he might learn something eye opening. But learning is not his agenda.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

You are exactly right Oscarr, @BCsenior seems to be scanning my posts and clipping out pieces here and there to make up nonsense. And then says he's warning everybody about me! That is just wicked. You know what I believe. If he actually absorbed my posts, he might learn something eye opening. But learning is not his agenda.

There is a problem when someone purports to have the truth and sets out to warn those who disagree with him that they are not receiving the truth. There is only one Person who tells the truth. Jesus said it repeatedly in the gospel of John: "I am telling you the truth".

The process is as follows. God is truth. He spoke directly through the Holy Spirit to the Old Testament authors. It was all about Jesus, as Jesus demonstrated to the disciples at Emmaeus when He went through the whole Old Testament to show them how it spoke of Him. Jesus took the truth of the Father and presented it in His teaching and ministry. Then, when the Holy Spirit came to the church, He took the truth that Jesus taught and applied it to the Apostles. What the Apostles wrote became New Testament Scripture. Now, the Holy Spirit applies what the Apostles wrote to us.

Therefore, the only truth is the Holy Spirit's interpretation of Scripture to us through the insights He gives us. This is why Holy Spirit inspired prophecy has to be part of the process - Father to Son to Holy Spirit to the Apostles, and through the Holy Spirit to us. Prophecy that contains "new" revelation that is not contained within the process, cannot be the truth. It may be good, beneficial and edifying, but it cannot be the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit will reflect only the truth of the Father which has been given to the Son and through the Son to the Holy Spirit and on to the Apostles.

Therefore the complete inspired word of God is contained in the Old and New Testaments, and the Holy Spirit's ministry to us is to give us insight into what has already been written, whether it is through inspired preaching, or prophecy.

Therefore, for anyone to put forward their own opinions as the absolute truth is nothing but arrogance and pride, and comes from an unteachable spirit.

I have emphasised the importance of accurate exegesis of Scripture to determine who, what, where, how, when, and why it was written so as to give a clear understanding of how it is to interpreted in the context of the environment in which it was originally written.

Then, on the basis of that exegesis, we can then use hermeneutics to see how the Scripture can be applied to believers in our present day.

But we do this in conjunction with the Holy Spirit because we need His help to get the understanding of Scripture from His perspective, and not our own. Unless we can be sure that we know His perspective on a passage of Scripture, through exegesis and hermeneutics, all we can do is offer our own opinion, which can be accepted or ignored by those who receive it.

By coming on a thread like this and saying, "I have the truth, and I am warning against those who don't have it in the way I do", is the same as giving a prophecy and starting it by saying, "Thus says the Lord". I don't know what others think, but if I had that attitude, I would be arrogant in thinking that I had the exclusive take on the truth.

 

[CharismaticLady]

There is a problem when someone purports to have the truth and sets out to warn those who disagree with him that they are not receiving the truth. There is only one Person who tells the truth. Jesus said it repeatedly in the gospel of John: "I am telling you the truth".

The process is as follows. God is truth. He spoke directly through the Holy Spirit to the Old Testament authors. It was all about Jesus, as Jesus demonstrated to the disciples at Emmaeus when He went through the whole Old Testament to show them how it spoke of Him. Jesus took the truth of the Father and presented it in His teaching and ministry. Then, when the Holy Spirit came to the church, He took the truth that Jesus taught and applied it to the Apostles. What the Apostles wrote became New Testament Scripture. Now, the Holy Spirit applies what the Apostles wrote to us.

Therefore, the only truth is the Holy Spirit's interpretation of Scripture to us through the insights He gives us. This is why Holy Spirit inspired prophecy has to be part of the process - Father to Son to Holy Spirit to the Apostles, and through the Holy Spirit to us. Prophecy that contains "new" revelation that is not contained within the process, cannot be the truth. It may be good, beneficial and edifying, but it cannot be the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit will reflect only the truth of the Father which has been given to the Son and through the Son to the Holy Spirit and on to the Apostles.

Therefore the complete inspired word of God is contained in the Old and New Testaments, and the Holy Spirit's ministry to us is to give us insight into what has already been written, whether it is through inspired preaching, or prophecy.

Therefore, for anyone to put forward their own opinions as the absolute truth is nothing but arrogance and pride, and comes from an unteachable spirit.

I have emphasised the importance of accurate exegesis of Scripture to determine who, what, where, how, when, and why it was written so as to give a clear understanding of how it is to interpreted in the context of the environment in which it was originally written.

Then, on the basis of that exegesis, we can then use hermeneutics to see how the Scripture can be applied to believers in our present day.

But we do this in conjunction with the Holy Spirit because we need His help to get the understanding of Scripture from His perspective, and not our own. Unless we can be sure that we know His perspective on a passage of Scripture, through exegesis and hermeneutics, all we can do is offer our own opinion, which can be accepted or ignored by those who receive it.

By coming on a thread like this and saying, "I have the truth, and I am warning against those who don't have it in the way I do", is the same as giving a prophecy and starting it by saying, "Thus says the Lord". I don't know what others think, but if I had that attitude, I would be arrogant in thinking that I had the exclusive take on the truth.

I was raised a partial Cessationist - I say partial because we believed Ellen G. White was a prophet - but I was taught that those who spoke in tongues today were speaking blasphemies.

I know you just finished a book by John MacArthur. Well, someone gave me a set of six cassettes by him on speaking in tongues. I listened to them with my husband. It was almost comical in some parts when he would say something so outrageous, both my and my husband's mouths flew open more than once. I ended up using the tapes as a Dictaphone and typed out the complete set so I could give the tapes back. There was a lot of things I wanted to research. Just doing that was the start of my writing career.

It took seven years, but I would ask God questions regarding tongues, because I would come to some passages and just shake my head. I couldn't figure out what Paul meant. Then I found out that others had the same problem with the same passage, so I started to dig, and found the answer. Of course, you know all about that because you read my book. LOL And you also know that other times I would be stumped with a scripture, and say to myself, well if that is true, then what about this. Basically, I would talk to God all day. Then early in the morning when I was just coming awake, the answer would come almost as part of a dream. They weren't my thoughts, so I know I have the correct interpretations on my study on tongues, straight from the horse's mouth.

 

[BCsenior]

Therefore, for anyone to put forward their own opinions as the absolute truth is nothing but arrogance and pride, and comes from an unteachable spirit.

Absolutely correct!
Butski, I'm not talking about opinions!

When the Holy Spirit reveals a spiritual Truth to you,
it becomes: "I know that I know that I know!"

Then, when the Holy Spirit says, "Go and teach this to others",
it becomes: "I will and I will and I will!"

Re: who said what ...
I cannot help it if people don't say what they mean.
I just read and understand the words that are written,
and comment on them ... and perhaps warn against them.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Informative video. Thank you for sharing. I should watch more of his videos. There is a war going on. A spiritual battle with God's Word at the center of it.

There is even a war that sometimes goes on within ourselves. I would highly also recommend checking out this Christian movie here:

It has a powerful message for the gospel, and in living for the Lord.
It is a very emotional film that is well acted.

Free to watch with Amazon Prime Video:

Amazon.com: Watch The War Within | Prime Video

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I was raised a partial Cessationist - I say partial because we believed Ellen G. White was a prophet - but I was taught that those who spoke in tongues today were speaking blasphemies.

I know you just finished a book by John MacArthur. Well, someone gave me a set of six cassettes by him on speaking in tongues. I listened to them with my husband. It was almost comical in some parts when he would say something so outrageous, both my and my husband's mouths flew open more than once. I ended up using the tapes as a Dictaphone and typed out the complete set so I could give the tapes back. There was a lot of things I wanted to research. Just doing that was the start of my writing career.

It took seven years, but I would ask God questions regarding tongues, because I would come to some passages and just shake my head. I couldn't figure out what Paul meant. Then I found out that others had the same problem with the same passage, so I started to dig, and found the answer. Of course, you know all about that because you read my book. LOL And you also know that other times I would be stumped with a scripture, and say to myself, well if that is true, then what about this. Basically, I would talk to God all day. Then early in the morning when I was just coming awake, the answer would come almost as part of a dream. They weren't my thoughts, so I know I have the correct interpretations on my study on tongues, straight from the horse's mouth.

I am sorry you learned of this topic by John MacArthur. In my opinion, John MacArthur does not do the teaching of Partial Cessationism justice. I seen one of his videos on the topic and I had to shut it off because of the bad way he was speaking. I cannot recall exactly what words he said, but I know that it was enough to turn off the video. I disagree with his view on Calvinism, so that in my view disqualifies him to speak correctly on the topic right there. Again, I do leave room that the Continuation view is potentially true by a small percentage. But the weight of Scripture leads me to lean towards Partial Cessationism. I am always open to seeing otherwise with Scripture on this topic. May the Lord open all our eyes to the truth on this difficult subject or topic in the Bible.

Blessings to you in the Lord today.

 

[BCsenior]

“Little children, let no one deceive you.
He who practices righteousness is righteous,
just as He is righteous … In this the children of God
and the children of the devil are manifest:
Whoever does NOT practice righteousness is NOT of God,
NOR is he who does NOT love his brothers and sisters.”
(1 John 3:7-10)

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Absolutely correct!
Butski, I'm not talking about opinions!

When the Holy Spirit reveals a spiritual Truth to you,
it becomes: "I know that I know that I know!"

Then, when the Holy Spirit says, "Go and teach this to others",
it becomes: "I will and I will and I will!"

Re: who said what ...
I cannot help it if people don't say what they mean.
I just read and understand the words that are written,
and comment on them ... and perhaps warn against them.

There is nothing wrong with receiving insights from God's Word and sharing them with others. But firing "This is the truth and you'd better believer it!" at a person won't do much to persuade them of it.

In my 12 years as a young Christian in Pentecostal circles, many preachers shouted their messages as if shouting them made people believe them more readily. When we went to hear one preacher, my wife would put cotton wool in her ears to muffle the sound!

We will never have the complete truth until we are with Jesus in glory. Paul said that we know in part and prophesy in part, which means that because we see through a glass darkly, we don't always have a completely clear picture of all the ways of God. This is because we walk by faith and not by sight.

The Holy Spirit will reveal to us and give us insight into what He thinks we need to know to maintain our faith and keep us from error. But what the Holy Spirit reveals to me, may not be what He might choose to reveal to others. If I say, "Are You going to reveal this to that other person?" He would be very likely to say, "What is that to you? Follow Jesus."

So, when we are sharing what the Holy Spirit reveals to us in the Word, we can only share it with humility, saying "This is the insight I have about that passage of Scripture, or the way the Holy Spirit moves with me, and I trust that it is helpful to you."

I have viewed a number of messages by John MacArthur, and find him very helpful in his exposition of Scripture. I keep well away from his views on the Charismatic because I don't hold to his views on that topic; but when he teaches the Bible, he is very faith building. He doesn't yell or preach loudly in his messages. He is more at conversational level.

But when I have heard Kenneth Copeland and his band of merry men in the faith movement, I see they tend to yell, preach loudly, and are very dramatic in their messages; and much of what they preach is false doctrine. This leads me to think that if a person has to shout, then either his argument is false or very weak in its support in Scripture.

Also, if one has to discredit another personally because they have different views, then one is basically shooting himself in the foot and destroying his own argument.

 

[BCsenior]

As obvious from the chart in post #2,
“the Promise” and “the gift” refers to “the baptism with the Holy Spirit”.

From “The Complete Biblical Library” (Springfield, MO),
Acts (731 pages) ...

“Now through Jesus would come the Promise of the Father, the gift of the Spirit.
… Jesus, as John promised, would baptize them in the Holy Spirit.” (p.21)

“Jesus promised they would receive power as a result of being filled with the Spirit.” (p.23)

“waiting for the Promise of the Father, the baptism in the Holy Spirit.” (p.27)

“In 1:5, Jesus said, ‘Ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.’
Here (in 2:4), Luke wrote that the 120 were ‘filled with the Holy Ghost’,
In fulfillment of Jesus’ promise … Actually, the Bible uses a variety of terms.
It was also a pouring out of the Spirit as Joel prophesied,
a receiving and an active taking of the Spirit as a gift (2:38),
a falling upon (8:16, 10:44, 11:15), a pouring out of the gift (10:45),
and a coming upon (19:6).” (p.39)

“As soon as they were filled, the 120 began to speak with other tongues (languages)
… This is the one sign of the baptism of the Spirit that was repeated (10:44-47, 19:1-7).” (p.39)

“120 … who were filled with power through the baptism in the Holy Spirit.” (p.57)

“Through the baptism in the Spirit is the Promise of the Father.” (p.57)

“Peter identified the gift with the Promise (1:4). This promise,
or ‘gift of the Holy Ghost’, was not limited to the 120.” (p.61)

 

[BCsenior]

IMO, there is ONLY ONE confusing NT passage regarding ...
BACs who are baptized with the Holy Spirit ...vs... BACs who are not.

Mark 16:
15 Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved;
but he who does not believe will be condemned.
17 And these signs will follow those who believe:
In My name they will cast out demons;
they will speak with new tongues;
18 they will take up serpents;
and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them;
they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.

Sure hope that verse 16 refers to water baptism ...
because some Pentecostals believe it refers to the H.S. Baptism!

IMO, Jesus was speaking of the future Day of Pentecost ... and the days beyond.
Back then, almost everyone was being baptized with the Holy Spirit,
beginning with the 12 disciples + the 120 + the 3000 (all in Acts 2).
The 3000 received what the others received on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:38-39).
The 3000 had all things in common with the apostles (Acts 2:44).

R.C. priests have cast out demons.
Haven't heard of anyone speaking in tongues w/o having the H.S. baptism.
Paul took up a serpent and survived, but he had the H.S. baptism.
Some Pentecostals have survived after drinking poison.
IMO, BACs w/o having the H.S. baptism can pray for the sick and see them recover.

So, where are we with all this? ... It seems to be about a 50-50 tie!
WHAT was Jesus talking about anyway?

 

[Carl Emerson]

Haven't heard of anyone speaking in tongues w/o having the H.S. baptism.

I had some fluency in tongues before being baptised in the Spirit.
When I was baptised in the Spirit I didn't know what it was... I was in tears in a church that didnt believe in it, and He made me deeply aware of the Chasm between His Holiness and my depravity so deep that I was totally undone - His presence was powerful. I knew it was a profound experience but it was not until a day later that He said I had been Baptised in the Spirit. I wouldn't have known what it was. I have not been the same since - no tongues involved, but a gift of discernment was released. Greater fluency in tongues came much later. I think we try to formulate these things and that He is a lot more flexible than what we think.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Sure hope that verse 16 refers to water baptism ...
because some Pentecostals believe it refers to the H.S. Baptism!

I am sure it is referring to water baptism, I believe it is talking about those who respond to the Gospel and refuse water baptism for whatever reason, this indicated a heart not ready to receive Him. It was the thing to do - preach to folk where there was water, to immediately confirm responses.

 

[Carl Emerson]

OK, what's your take on John 20:22 ...
when Jesus said to His 11 disciples, "Receive the Holy Spirit."?

OK, for a compromise, how about we agree that
the work of the Holy Spirit is one and a half?

I believe this was the time that the disciples were born of the Spirit and received His presence within permanently.

Later they received the empowering from the Spirit upon them at Pentecost permanently.

 

[Carl Emerson]

For what it's worth here is a short summary of how I view this topic.

Biblically there is a key passage that throws quite some light on the Baptism of the Spirit. This is the testimony of John the Baptist who was told in John 1 30-34 That the One who would Baptise in the Spirit - unlike all the others coming to Him to be baptised, in every case he would see the Holy Spirit blessing them then leave - this man was different because the Holy Spirit came down and remained permanently upon Him.

Not only was John told that this was how he should recognise who the awaited Messiah was, but that unlike himself, Jesus would be the One who Baptises in the Spirit.

Why is this important?

In the old covenant no one was reborn - they all related to their God as a Spirit external to themselves.

In the new covenant the Spirit takes up permanent residence in our hearts at rebirth.

This is confirmed in Jeremiah 31:31 and 32.40... and was meant for Jew and gentile alike as stated in Acts 15:8.

So there are two distinct and seperate experiences - Rebirth and Baptism in the Spirit.

In the case of Jesus he was indwelled by the spirit at conception so was in the 'reborn' state at birth. He did however still need the Baptism of the Spirit before beginning His ministry.

Apart from this - for various reasons we 'leak' and need to be refilled or topped up from time to time. This is being 'filled with the Spirit' rather than the Baptism of the Spirit which is a one time event.

A question that remains is when did the disciples receive the holy spirit within?

When the twelve and the seventy two were sent out to minister in His name they had a temporary anointing of His Spirit.

It was after the resurrection that Jesus was able to give them the Holy Spirit permanently within - John 20:22 and later at Pentecost they received the Holy Spirit permanently upon Acts 2:3

As for tongues I do not believe this particular gift should have a 'sign status'.

Nor do I think that it is wisely exercised in some circles.

I think that if your tongue is not being interpreted, it is a tongue for personal edification and should not be for public display.

The problem is that when one pushes a theology of tongues being a sign gift then folks will want to display it as if it indicates they are saved or baptised in the spirit. This can be driven by a lack of personal identity in Him.

I consider my personal tongue to be somewhat sacred and don't broadcast it far and wide.

I also find that at times when there is spiritual oppression He inspires a tongue of rebuke which sounds quite different.