How can satan be already bound without contradicting Revelation 12?

mkgal1 · Jul 20, 2019

DavidPT said:
There is no logic in satan coming out of the pit in Revelation 9, then attacking and tormenting his own people.

Maybe you've never met a narcissist (be grateful, if you haven't) - but that's just the type of behavior an evil one does (they use and exploit even the ones that worship and admire them).

Quoting Kim Riddlebarger: Recall that the blast of trumpet is an important redemptive historical image throughout both testaments. Trumpet blasts accompany the giving of the law at Sinai. A trumpet blast announces the jubilee year as well as the coronation of a new king. A trumpet blast announces the Day of the Lord and accompanies the return of Jesus Christ to judge the world, raise the dead and make all things new. But another critical moment in redemptive history when we find seven blasts of a trumpet is in Joshua 6 when the city of Jericho fell to the army of Israel. The fortified city of Jericho blocked God’s people from entering the promised land during the Exodus, just as in the Book of Revelation the city of man–Babylon the Great–prevents the establishment of the New Jerusalem on the earth. It is not until the seven trumpet judgments are completed that the great city falls–just as Jericho did when Israel’s priests sounded the seven trumpets. Only then will God’s people enter the true promised land, that city whose architect and builder is the Lord God himself. Like the seven seals, when the seven trumpet judgments have run their course, the city of man will be destroyed and the kingdoms of this world will become the kingdom of our God and of his Christ. And all of this results–John tells us–because God hears the prayers of his suffering saints. When the prayers of his people ascend to his throne, God acts.

It is also important to put ourselves back in the first century for a moment so as to understand the images John uses in the fifth and sixth trumpet judgments. John speaks of locusts and scorpions–two of the most feared and destructive pests known in the first century world. If we don’t consider this very important point, we may make one of the worst and most common of interpretive mistakes and attempt to understand John to be describing contemporary technological advances in warfare found in our own time, completely unknown to John in his own day.

The key to interpreting these things correctly is the Old Testament and the Roman world in which John lived. When seen in this light it is clear what John is telling us–Satan is a thief, a destroyer and a murderer just as Jesus said he is. He seduces people into serving him and then torments them when they do so. Satan hates life, even the life of those who worship the Beast and his image. All those who reject Christ are not sealed with his name, they are left unprotected and they will experience the horrible things depicted in these judgments. It is clear, therefore, that John is speaking of those demonic forces unleashed upon those upon the earth to torment those who worship and serve the Beast. This then is the context in which we must read the fifth and sixth trumpet judgments. ~ http://kimriddlebarger.squarespace.com/downloadable-sermons-on-the-bo/Still They Did Not Repent 15 revised.pdf

mkgal1 · Jul 20, 2019

DavidPT said:
In order for anything to at least be possible, there has to be some logic to it first. There is no logic in satan coming out of the pit in Revelation 9, then attacking and tormenting his own people

What makes sense in our mind - typically is upside down in the world of satan. That's one of the reasons that Christ's redemptive work is called "The Great Reversal" - He "righted" everything again in His Kingdom.

Quoting from linked article:

God’s Great Reversal: Key to the Gospel of Luke
Mary also understands that what God has done for her as an individual is a sign of God’s concern for all the lowly:

“He has shown might with his arm,
dispersed the arrogant of mind and heart.
He has thrown down the rulers from their thrones
but lifted up the lowly.
The hungry he has filled with good things;
the rich he has sent away empty.” (1:51-53) ~ God’s Great Reversal: Key to the Gospel of Luke

DavidPT · Jul 20, 2019

mkgal1 said:
What makes sense in our mind - typically is upside down in the world of satan. That's one of the reasons that Christ's redemptive work is called "The Great Reversal" - He "righted" everything again in His Kingdom.

Quoting from linked article:

God’s Great Reversal: Key to the Gospel of Luke
Mary also understands that what God has done for her as an individual is a sign of God’s concern for all the lowly:

“He has shown might with his arm,
dispersed the arrogant of mind and heart.
He has thrown down the rulers from their thrones
but lifted up the lowly.
The hungry he has filled with good things;
the rich he has sent away empty.” (1:51-53) ~ God’s Great Reversal: Key to the Gospel of Luke

But what I mean by something having logic to it before it can even be possible, might be something like such. The events involving the 2nd coming actually precede the events involving the first coming. There is obviously zero logic to that, thus not a valid conclusion to come to whatsoever. So I'm basically meaning in a sense like that.

Revelation 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

Where should one assume the origins of this command came from? There is such a thing as repeating a command that initially came from a higher source. Who would not want saints of God hurt and tormented by these things? God or satan?

mkgal1 · Jul 20, 2019

DavidPT said:
If that is what the BP is supposed to mean there, the same should be true of the following passages also. After all, there can't be more than one BP, right?

Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

BTW, none of these passages above show satan coming out of the BP.

BABerean2 said:
What is the beast that is in the verse below.

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Where is this beast now?

DavidPT said:
When the beast that we see in Revelation 13 is used, this beast blasphemes God, etc.

If we take note of what comes out of the pit in Revelation 9, we see this.

Revelation 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads .
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Compared with----

When the beast that we see in Revelation 13 is used, this beast blasphemes God, etc.

If we take note of what comes out of the pit in Revelation 9, we see this.

Revelation 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads .
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Compared with----

Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy .
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them : and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

These couldn't possibly be involving this same beast and same events. There is no beast coming out of the pit in Revelation 9 doing any of the things we see the beast in Revelation 13 doing.

In Revelation 9 it is satan's team that is being targeted. In Revelation 13 it is God's team that is being targeted.

None of this answers the question about the beast in Rev 11 (that I can see) - which is what BABerean was asking about.

mkgal1 · Jul 20, 2019

DavidPT said:
The events involving the 2nd coming actually precede the events involving the first coming.

If you're trying to insert Christ's final return into Revelation - that may be the confusion. No where in Revelation is the topic of Christ's FINAL return raised. What IS being written about is His Parousia - the Coming of the Son of Man that was written about in Daniel's prophecy. The entire context of John's vision is laid out in Rev. 1:1-6 (and everything that follows this, must be kept within this context).

Revelation 1:1-6 ~
A revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. Christ made it known by sending it through his angel to his servant John,
who bore witness to the word of God and to the witness of Jesus Christ, including all that John saw.
Favored is the one who reads the words of this prophecy out loud, and favored are those who listen to it being read, and keep what is written in it, for the time is near.
John, to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace and peace to you from the one who is and was and is coming, and from the seven spirits that are before God's throne,
and from Jesus Christ—the faithful witness, the firstborn from among the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To the one who loves us and freed us from our sins by his blood,
who made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father—to him be glory and power forever and always. Amen.

Quoting Dr. Scott Hahn:
The Book of Revelation was about Someone Who was to come. It was about Jesus Christ and His “Second Coming,” which is the way Christians have commonly translated the Greek word Parousia. Through hour after hour in that chapel in Milwaukee in 1985, I came to know that that Someone was the same Jesus Christ Whom the Catholic priest lifted up in the host. If the early Christians were correct, I knew that, in that very moment, heaven touched down on earth. “My Lord and my God. That’s really You!”

——I hope you enjoyed this excerpt from my book, “The Lamb’s Supper.”

mkgal1 · Jul 20, 2019

DavidPT said:
Revelation 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

Where should one assume the origins of this command came from? There is such a thing as repeating a command that initially came from a higher source. Who would not want saints of God hurt and tormented by these things? God or satan?

Revelation 9:4 isn't about saints of God - it's about those that DO NOT have the seal of God?

God holds the ultimate authority - and only when He releases the destroyer can he be loosed.

DavidPT · Jul 20, 2019

mkgal1 said:
None of this answers the question about the beast in Rev 11 (that I can see) - which is what BABerean was asking about.

Maybe I misunderstood what he was asking then? It wouldn't be the first time I've done something like that.

In the meantime, yet still connected with what we have been discussing lately.

Here's what I propose as maybe a possibilty.

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Could not the 2Ws be behind why the pit is being opened in Revelation 9? Perhaps the thousand two hundred and threescore day they shall prophesy, that era of time covers events from the first trumpet thru the end of the 6th trumpet, and not that the 1260 days only cover events during the 6th trumpet.

What does verse 6 above say? and have power over waters to turn them to blood. Compare that with the following, for example.

Revelation 8:8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

Maybe it's just me, but that sure sounds like waters being turned into blood to me.

And now that I think of it, after having offered the above, maybe this somewhat addresses what BAB was asking about the beast in Revelation 11? If the opening of the pit in Revelation 9 is because of the 2Ws involvement, they wouldn't be involved in the opening of it if satan is supposed to be emerging from it at the time, nor that if the beast in Revelation 13 is supposed to be emerging from it at the time.

DavidPT · Jul 20, 2019

mkgal1 said:
Revelation 9:4 isn't about saints of God - it's about those that DO NOT have the seal of God?

Exactly! So who would not want the saints of God harmed by any of these things? God or satan? The text makes a point to bring out the fact, they are commanded to not also hurt the saints of God.

2 Questions then

Who would not want the saints of God also hurt and tormented? God or satan?

Who would want the wicked lost hurt and tormented? God or satan?

mkgal1 · Jul 20, 2019

DavidPT said:
Maybe I misunderstood what he was asking then? It wouldn't be the first time I've done something like that.

In the meantime, yet still connected with what we have been discussing lately.

Here's what I propose as maybe a possibilty.

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Could not the 2Ws be behind why the pit is being opened in Revelation 9? Perhaps the thousand two hundred and threescore day they shall prophesy, that era of time covers events from the first trumpet thru the end of the 6th trumpet, and not that the 1260 days only cover events during the 6th trumpet.

What does verse 6 above say? and have power over waters to turn them to blood. Compare that with the following, for example.

Revelation 8:8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

Maybe it's just me, but that sure sounds like waters being turned into blood to me.

And now that I think of it, after having offered the above, maybe this somewhat addresses what BAB was asking about the beast in Revelation 11? If the opening of the pit in Revelation 9 is because of the 2Ws involvement, they wouldn't be involved in the opening of it if satan is supposed to be emerging from it at the time, nor that if the beast in Revelation 13 is supposed to be emerging from it at the time.

It doesn't seem to me that Rev 9 & 11 are speaking about the same events.

Quoting linked article about Revelation 9:

In this study of the first half of Revelation 9, we will see that:

John’s vision of locusts tormenting men for five months is parallel to the length of time that Israel was prone to locust invasions throughout its history;
This also mirrors the length of the Roman siege in Jerusalem in 70 AD, leading to that city’s downfall;
The Roman siege even took place during the same months that locusts would typically invade Israel’s land;
Josephus spoke of men longing for death, just like John saw in his visions (Rev. 6:16, 9:6) and just like Jesus said would be the case for the “daughters of Jerusalem” and their children (Luke 23:27-30);
The name of this locust army’s leader, Apollyon, is remarkably similar to the 15th Roman legion, Apollinarus, that Titus led into Jerusalem in 70 AD (verse 11). This legion was named after the Greek god, Apollo.

In verses 1-2, the key to the bottomless pit was given to “a star [that had] fallen from heaven to earth.” John’s readers are not told explicitly who this star is, but some believe that it was Lucifer (see Luke 10:18 and Rev. 12:9-10). In “Days of Vengeance,” published in 1987, David Chilton notes that “the bottomless pit” is referenced a total of seven times in the book Revelation (9:1, 2, 11; 11:7; 17:8; 20:1, 3). Chilton adds,

In Biblical symbolism, the Abyss is the farthest extreme from heaven (Genesis 49:25; Deuteronomy 33:13) and from the high mountains (Psalm 36:6). It is used in Scripture as a reference to the deepest parts of the sea (Job 28:14; 38:16; Psalm 33:7) and to subterranean rivers and vaults of water (Deuteronomy 8:7; Job 36:16), whence the waters of the Flood came (Genesis 7:11; 8:2; Proverbs 3:20; 8:24), and which nourished the kingdom of Assyria (Ezekiel 31:4, 15). The Red Sea crossing of the covenant people is repeatedly likened to a passage through the Abyss (Psalm 77:16; 106:9; Isaiah 44:27; 51:10; 63:13). The prophet Ezekiel threatened Tyre with a great desolation of the land, in which God would bring up the Abyss to cover the city with a new Flood, bringing its people down to the pit in the lower parts of the earth (Ezekiel 26:19-21), and Jonah spoke of the Abyss in terms of excommunication from God’s presence, a banishment from the Temple (Jonah 2:5-6). The domain of the Dragon (Job 41:31;Psalm 148:7; Revelation 11:7; 17:8), the prison of the demons (Luke 8:31; Revelation 20:1-3; cf.2 Peter 2:4; Jude 6), and the realm of the dead (Romans 10:7) are all called by the name Abyss.

St. John is thus warning his readers that hell is about to break loose upon the Land of Israel; as with Tyre of old, the Abyss is being dredged up to cover the Land with its unclean spirits. Apostate Israel is to be cast out of God’s presence, excommunicated from the Temple, and filled with demons. One of the central messages of Revelation is that the Church tabernacles in heaven (see Revelation 7:15; 12:12; 13:6); the corollary of this is that the false church tabernacles in hell (David Chilton, Days of Vengeance, 1987). ~ Israel’s 5-Month Locust Invasion In 70 AD (Revelation 9:1-11)

Quoting linked article about Revelation 11:

In the previous post, “The Gentiles Trampled Jerusalem for 42 Months,” we looked at Revelation 11:1-2 and concluded that the Gentiles mentioned in those verses were not the Romans. Instead they were the Zealots, the Galileans, and the Idumeans who trampled Jerusalem from 66-70 AD. The rest of our study on Revelation 11 will cover:

Verse 3 – the two witnesses prophesying for 1260 days (3.5 years)
Verse 4 – their identity as two olive trees and two lampstands
Verses 5-6 – their ability to escape harm and cause plagues
Verse 7 – the beast killing the two witnesses
Verses 8-9 – the two witnesses lying dead and unburied in Jerusalem
Verse 10 – their enemies rejoicing
Verse 13 – an earthquake taking place in Jerusalem

This series is about “the beast,” which, in this chapter, is only mentioned in verse 7. We will examine more than verse 7, however, because it’s necessary to look at the greater context of this verse. This will help us to validate the identity of the beast and to better understand his actions.

Having seen that it was the Zealots and the Idumeans who trampled Jerusalem for 3.5 years (42 months), we also see in Revelation 11:3 that God gave power to His two witnesses to prophesy for 3.5 years (1260 days). These time periods were identical in length, but did they begin and end at the same time? I don’t believe they did, and I will propose that they only halfway overlapped as in the following diagram:

I’ve developed a series of case studies comparing the works of Josephus and the book of Revelation. As the chart in that analysis shows, it would be very fitting for the events of Revelation 11 to have taken place in early 68 AD.

Revelation 11:4
In Revelation 11:4, the two witnesses are identified as “the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth.” As many scholars have recognized, this description draws on Zechariah’s “Vision of the Lampstand and Olive Trees”:

“Now the angel who talked with me came back and wakened me, as a man who is wakened out of sleep. And he said to me, ‘What do you see?’ So I said, ‘I am looking, and there is a lampstand of solid gold with a bowl on top of it, and on the stand seven lamps with seven pipes to the seven lamps. Two olive trees are by it, one at the right of the bowl and the other at its left.’ … Then I answered and said to him, ‘What are these two olive trees…?’ So he said, ‘These are the two anointed ones, who stand before the Lord of the whole earth’” (Zechariah 4:1-3, 11, 14).

This vision came on the heels of Zechariah’s “Vision of the High Priest,” concerning the high priest, Joshua (Zechariah 3), who served alongside the governor, Zerubbabel (Zech. 4). ~ The Two Witnesses Killed by the Beast (Revelation 11:3-13)

DavidPT · Jul 20, 2019

mkgal1 said:
If you're trying to insert Christ's final return into Revelation - that may be the confusion. No where in Revelation is the topic of Christ's FINAL return raised. What IS being written about is His Parousia - the Coming of the Son of Man that was written about in Daniel's prophecy. The entire context of John's vision is laid out in Rev. 1:1-6 (and everything that follows this, must be kept within this context).

Revelation 1:1-6 ~
A revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. Christ made it known by sending it through his angel to his servant John,
who bore witness to the word of God and to the witness of Jesus Christ, including all that John saw.
Favored is the one who reads the words of this prophecy out loud, and favored are those who listen to it being read, and keep what is written in it, for the time is near.
John, to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace and peace to you from the one who is and was and is coming, and from the seven spirits that are before God's throne,
and from Jesus Christ—the faithful witness, the firstborn from among the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To the one who loves us and freed us from our sins by his blood,
who made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father—to him be glory and power forever and always. Amen.

Quoting Dr. Scott Hahn:
The Book of Revelation was about Someone Who was to come. It was about Jesus Christ and His “Second Coming,” which is the way Christians have commonly translated the Greek word Parousia. Through hour after hour in that chapel in Milwaukee in 1985, I came to know that that Someone was the same Jesus Christ Whom the Catholic priest lifted up in the host. If the early Christians were correct, I knew that, in that very moment, heaven touched down on earth. “My Lord and my God. That’s really You!”

——I hope you enjoyed this excerpt from my book, “The Lamb’s Supper.”

Apparently you misunderstood my point entirely. I only used that example to illustrate what I'm basically meaning by something has to at least be logical first before it can even be a possibility. I could have used a number of examples to illustrate this. Another example might be something like such. The great white throne judgment precedes when the remnant of the beast's armies are slain by Christ in Revelation 19. There is no logic in that, thus not a valid conclusion to arrive at.

mkgal1 · Jul 20, 2019

DavidPT said:
Exactly! So who would not want the saints of God harmed by any of these things? God or satan? The text makes a point to bring out the fact, they are commanded to not also hurt the saints of God.

God is always - and has always been - in ultimate power or control (even when satan is "loosed", it's under careful direction of God - as you see here "do NOT harm any that have the seal of God on their forehead").

DavidPT said:
2 Questions then

Who would not want the saints of God also hurt and tormented? God or satan?

Who would want the wicked lost hurt and tormented? God or satan?

The destroyer (satan) destroys. I wouldn't say that God "wants" the lost to be hurt and tormented - but He allowed it (releasing satan for a little while) for His purpose (and Revelation was just another example of a warning that was given).

I'm not sure where your point is leading, though?

mkgal1 · Jul 20, 2019

DavidPT said:
Apparently you misunderstood my point entirely. I only used that example to illustrate what I'm basically meaning by something has to at least be logical first before it can even be a possibility. I could have used a number of examples to illustrate this. Another example might be something like such. The great white throne judgment precedes when the remnant of the beast's armies are slain by Christ in Revelation 19. There is no logic in that, thus not a valid conclusion to arrive at.

It seems to me that you're searching for a narrative that makes sense (if I'm not mistaken).

I'd recommend considering this context - because this is what made a lot of sense to the Bible to me (and made so many passages much more clear). As someone posted earlier, Revelation isn't really the book to form your chosen "story line":

Quoting from That the World May Know article:
The Seeds of Revolt

The Seeds
After the Romans began their occupation of Judea in 64 BC, the Jews became divided on how to respond.

The religious leaders, particularly the Pharisees, believed the Messiah would come from the Jewish people and make Israel a great, free nation. They condemned Rome's access and viewed Romans as oppressors punishing God's people for their unfaithfulness to the Torah.

The Sadducees and secular leaders decided to cooperate with the Romans, who gave them various special privileges (John 11:49-50).

The Zealots proclaimed revolution to be God's solution to Roman oppression (Acts 5:37).

The Essenes waited for the Messiah to lead a violent overthrow of the Romans and their Jewish supporters, while the Herodions (nonreligious Jews who supported Herod) were completely satisfied with Herod's dynasty (Matt. 22:16).

The Sparks
The Jews were motivated to revolt by a number of different factors. After Herod Agrippa I died, the Romans appointed a series of increasingly cruel, corrupt governors to rule over the Jews, causing confusion, hatred, and division.

The paganism of Rome's culture offended the Jews, and the Jewish priests, who became more dependent on Roman security and support, became more corrupt. Priests and their followers also began fighting each other in the streets.

During feast days, especially Passover, nationalistic tensions escalated, causing Rome to increase its military presence. Wanting to serve God in their own way, the Jews longed for freedom.

Although Jesus warned his followers not to participate in military methods of bringing his kingdom, some Jewish people decided to seek out salvation through political and military might. Their actions brought about the Jewish Revolts and ultimately led to their destruction. ~ The Seeds of Revolt

Quoting from another linked article:
But what the four Gospels are doing is talking about the coming of God’s Kingdom. Jesus says, “The Kingdom of God is at hand.” When you look at the crucifixion narratives in all four Gospels, it’s all about Jesus being enthroned as king. ~ N.T. Wright on Easter, Atonement and the Real Message of the Cross | RELEVANT Magazine

mkgal1 · Jul 20, 2019

Regarding "the beast":

Quoting linked article:

This topic is “the beast.”

In John’s day, the consequences for following the beast were very heavy, but the blessings for overcoming the beast were also very great. We see this contrast in Revelation 14 and 15, where one group received the full strength of God’s wrath and fiery torment, while the other group had the privilege of standing on the sea of glass and singing the song of Moses and the song of the Lamb:

“Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, ‘If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. And he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name’” (Rev. 14:9-11).

“I saw something like a sea of glass mingled with fire, and those who have the victory over the beast, over his image and over his mark and over the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, having harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying: ‘Great and marvelous are Your works, Lord God Almighty! Just and true are Your ways, O King of the saints! Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy. For all nations shall come and worship before You, for Your judgments have been manifested’” (Rev. 15:2-4).

So there’s no doubt that the beast was a great enemy to the church, but who was this enemy? Was this enemy Roman? Or was it Jewish? Whoever or whatever it was, there are details about the beast in Daniel 7, and Revelation 11, 13 – 17, and 19 – 20 which all need to be reconciled. These details include:

10 horns on the beast
a little horn coming up among the 10 horns
three horns that fell before the little horn
the little horn persecuting the saints for 3.5 years and changing time and law
a second beast that works very closely with the first beast
seven heads of the beast
a wounded head
the dragon, beast, and false prophet working together to gather people to a great battle
the beast and false prophet cast into the lake of fire

This presentation won’t cover all these details, but see the “Glossary of Terms” at the end of this article for some more details.

In my studies over the last six months or so, I’ve come to some very different conclusions than those I used to hold about the beast. Beginning in 2009, I believed that the beast was Rome (generally) and Nero (specifically). I did have unanswered questions, especially when it came to Daniel 7 and Revelation 19, but I kept those questions on the back burner. When I finally brought those questions to the forefront, I came to realize that Rome and Nero didn’t fit the visions that Daniel and John had about a beast that would oppose God’s people.

Five Clues About the Beast’s Identity
In this presentation we will analyze five passages in Revelation in an effort to understand the beast’s identity:

1. The fifth bowl was poured out on the beast (Revelation 16:10-11).
2. The beast was given to the burning flame (Daniel 7:11; Revelation 19:20).
3. Who was killed by the sword AND went into captivity (Revelation 13:10)?
4. Who destroyed and burned the harlot (Revelation 17:16)?
5. How did the two beasts relate to “those who dwell on the earth” (Revelation 13:3-15)? ~Who Was the Beast? (Five Clues) – Long Island Conference Presentation

Quoting Adam Maarschalk: The 42 months of persecution and beheading (Rev. 13:5-8) took place at the beginning of the Jewish-Roman War (AD 66 – 73). So that’s when the 1000 years would begin, not end. ~ An Interview with Adam Maarschalk – Daniel Reloaded

BABerean2 · Jul 20, 2019

mkgal1 said:
I’ve developed a series of case studies comparing the works of Josephus and the book of Revelation. As the chart in that analysis shows, it would be very fitting for the events of Revelation 11 to have taken place in early 68 AD.

From your source...

"Revelation 11:11-12
“Now after the three and a half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, ‘Come up here.’ And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them” (Revelation 11:11-12).

At this time, I don’t have much insight into what these verses mean or how they may fit the narrative described above (or any narrative described by Josephus or any other first century historian). Does this simply mean that heaven validated their message of peace? Did Ananus and Jesus embrace the gospel and become followers of Christ (something Josephus wouldn’t have mentioned)? I hope to gain insight on these verses in the future. In the meantime, those who read this are invited to share any insight you may have."

Please allow me to respectfully disagree with your source.

Your source does not understand Revelation 11:11-12 because they are ignoring John 5:27-30, whose timing is found in Revelation 11:18. You cannot have a "time of the judgment of the dead" without a resurrection of the dead.

Your source is also not accepting the identity of the candlesticks, and olive trees found in Revelation 1:20, and Romans 11:24.

Are the two witnesses Levitical priests, or are they part of the Church? The answer is found in Revelation 12:11.

If "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18 did not occur during the first century, your source has driven the Preterist bus into the ditch on the side of the road.

We need to urge them back onto the roadway and toward our future meeting with the one who bought us with His blood. It is that event which is described symbolically in Revelation 11:15-18, and earlier in the chapter with the resurrection of the witnesses.

.

mkgal1 · Jul 20, 2019

BABerean2 said:
"Revelation 11:11-12
“Now after the three and a half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, ‘Come up here.’ And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them” (Revelation 11:11-12).

At this time, I don’t have much insight into what these verses mean or how they may fit the narrative described above (or any narrative described by Josephus or any other first century historian).

From what I understand, these verses are pointing to Ezekiel 37:5, 10 :

Ezekiel 37:5 ~ The LORD God proclaims to these bones: I am about to put breath in you, and you will live again.

V 10 ~ I prophesied just as he commanded me. When the breath entered them, they came to life and stood on their feet, an extraordinarily great army.

The nation in exile is described as corpses of which only dry bones remain. G.K. Beale contends that this scene is simply a symbolic portrayal of vindication. He writes: “The acceptance of the witnesses into the cloud [v. 12] shows the divine approval since the cloud in the OT was representative of God’s presence either in judgment or in commissioning his prophetic servants” ( 599). ~ Revelation 11:1-13 - Part II

mkgal1 · Jul 20, 2019

BABerean2 said:
You cannot have a "time of the judgment of the dead" without a resurrection of the dead.

This is not relative to "the time of the judgment of the dead".

In my belief, the "coming to life" is the translation of the saints into the presence of God (see v. 12).

mkgal1 · Jul 20, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Are the two witnesses Levitical priests, or are they part of the Church? The answer is found in Revelation 12:11.

All we can do is use conjecture for this (I've not studied the passage enough to come to a conclusion yet).

Revelation 12:11 ~ They gained the victory over him on account of the blood of the Lamb and the word of their witness. Love for their own lives didn't make them afraid to die.

This is a list of opinions of who the two witnesses might be:

·Elijah and Jeremiah – A few contend that Elijah and Jeremiah are the two witnesses, for according to one Jewish legend neither did Jeremiah suffer physical death.

·Joshua and Zerubbabel – Since Rev. 11:3ff. is clearly patterned after Zech. 4:1-14, these two are seen as likely candidates.

·Peter and Paul – Some point to the martyrdom of these two apostles and the tradition that Nero prohibited their burial (cf. Rev. 11:19).

·Stephen and James the Just – Again, since both Stephen (Acts 7:54-60) and James the Just (martyred in a.d. 62, acc. to Eusebius, Eccles. Hist. 2.23.21-24) were early martyrs, some saw them as likely candidates.

·James and John, the sons of Zebedee – James was martyred by Herod Agrippa I according to Acts 12:1-2.

·John the Baptist and Jesus – Since John was regarded by many as the embodiment of Elijah and Jesus as the successor to Moses, they may be the two witnesses.

·Ananus and Joshua – High priests who were killed by the Idumaeans in 68 a.d., whose bodies were cast out into the street without burial.

·The OT and the NT – Or more likely, the Law (represented by Moses) and the Prophets (represented by Elijah).

·The Word of God and the testimony of Jesus – See Strand (AUSS 19 [1981], 127-35.

·Moses and Elijah – Most believe that these two are the models for the two witnesses. It was Elijah who called down fire from heaven on Mt. Carmel (1 Kings 18:38) and later to consume his enemies (2 Kings 1:10-14; cf. Luke 9:54). In Rev. 11, however, the imagery is changed and the fire proceeds from the mouths of the witnesses. Elijah also prevented rain from falling for 3 ½ years (1 Kings 17:1). Moses was responsible for turning water into blood (Exod. 7:14-24) and for striking the Egyptians with “every sort of plague” (1 Sam. 4:8). And the two appeared together with Jesus on the Mt. of Transfiguration (Mt. 17:3).

Clearly, the latter are the most likely models. However, this does not mean that the two witnesses literally are Moses and Elijah. ~ Revelation 11:1-13 - Part II

Ananus ben Ananus and Jesus ben Gamaliel
Quoting Adam Maarschalk:
I would like to propose that the two witnesses were two first century high priests, Ananus ben Ananus and Jesus ben Gamaliel (also known as Joshua). According to Josephus, they led the peace movement in Jerusalem when the Zealots were determined to rebel and incite war with the Romans, hoping to gain full independence for Israel. As we will see, their roles, deaths, the aftermath of their deaths, and the timing of their deaths line up with a number of details John saw in Revelation 11. Here is a short summary of these two men.

1. Ananus: The appointment of Ananus as high priest is recorded in Antiquities 20.9.1. He was appointed in 62 AD. Josephus called him “the ancientest of the high priests” and “a very prudent man” (Wars 4.3.7), “a prodigious lover of liberty” who “preferred peace above all things,” and “a shrewd man in speaking and persuading the people” (Wars 4.5.2). Ironically, in December 66 AD he was appointed as a general over Jerusalem, one of 10 generals appointed to prepare for war with Rome (Wars 2.20.3). A long speech given by Ananus against the Zealots is recorded in Wars 4.3.10.

2. Jesus: The appointment of Jesus as high priest is recorded in Antiquities 20.9.4. He was appointed in 63 or 64 AD, but only for about a year (Ant. 20.9.7). From that time on, Josephus said, Jerusalem was “greatly disordered” and “all things grew worse and worse” (Ant. 20.9.4). Josephus referred to Jesus as “a friend and companion” (Life 41.204), and called him “the eldest of the high priests next to Ananus.” Josephus added that “although he was inferior to [Ananus] upon the comparison, he was superior to the rest” (Wars 4.5.2). Jesus also gave a long speech against the Zealots, which is recorded in Wars 4.4.3. ~ two witnesses – Pursuing Truth

BABerean2 · Jul 20, 2019

mkgal1 said:
From what I understand, these verses are pointing to Ezekiel 37:5, 10 :

Ezekiel 37:5 ~ The LORD God proclaims to these bones: I am about to put breath in you, and you will live again.

I agree that Ezekiel 37:5 and Revelation 11:11-12 are parallel passages, which are also parallel to John 5:27-30, whose timing is found in Revelation 11:18.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

.

BABerean2 · Jul 20, 2019

mkgal1 said:
All we can do is use conjecture for this (I've not studied the passage enough to come to a conclusion yet).

Did Christ reveal that the candlesticks are a symbol of the churches in the Book of Revelation?
Do you think He changed His mind later in the book? If so, where is this change revealed?

Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Did Paul use the two Olive Trees as a symbol of the New Covenant Church in the New Testament?

Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

.

parousia70 · Jul 21, 2019

TribulationSigns said:
Let me explain...

I believe it is a foregone Biblical conclusion that the sacrificed ceasing is the power of salvation in the testimony of the saints. Because the Bible states that when the Two Witnesses' 1260 days are finished, the testimony of the true witnesses is finished. It does not mean that they can no longer talk, but that the power of the Spirit given them per previous verse to testify unto salvation is over or ended. But by whom?

Dan 12:7
(7) And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

The Two Witnesses no longer have such Spirit or power there anymore. The power they had of sacrifice (Romans 12:1; Hebrews 13:15; Philippians 2:17, 4:18, etc.) and offering has ceased in the church. Scripture says these are no longer witnesses (unto salvation) there but killed. There is no more testimony as all these saints (true witnesses) are killed in the streets of that city.

Revelation 11:3

"And I will give POWER unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth."

Revelation 11:7

"And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them."

Thus when the 1260 symbolic days are finished, clearly the two Witnesses who were given POWER of God to bring the testimony of salvation, no longer have that power. Sacrifice and offering have ceased because all Israel that God has chosen to seal, has been sealed. All 144,000 of them!! THis has nothing to do with the physical city of Jersualem but the building of New Testament Congregation is finished.

Now after 1,260 days, the 1,290 come with Abomination of Desolation:

Dan 12:9-13
(9) And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
(10) Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
(11) And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
(12) Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
(13) But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

There is no disharmony in that verse. It literally reads from the time of the continual [sacrifice] (which is Christ) is taken away, to the giving of the desolating, [are] days a thousand, two hundred, and ninety. I believe that this is understood to mean from point A to Point B to point C. In other words, from the sacrifice taken away, A: 1260, to the abomination of desolation, is B: 1290, and to the blessed faithful and patient saints who wait for the end is C: 1335 days.

Daniel 12:11

"And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days."

From the time of A to B is 1290 and Blessed are those who wait for C. And "C" being the return of the Lord and consummation. I believe it illustrates there is a time period between 1260 when it begins and 1290 when it falls. From the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that makes desolate setup. Thus the period the two witnesses are killed and remain in thte street of the city for 3 and half day which is symbolical of sleep/Death on the streets before the fall of the congregation when they are to come out. They come out at 1290 and wait for the 1335. I believe it is a very logical progression, spiritual lengths of time rather than literal.

Daniel 12:12

"Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days."

Clearly, the period of 1,260 symbolic days is the whole New Testament period when the two witnesses have power to testimony (unto salvation). After the 1260, their testimony is finished. They lay dead in the streets of Great City (church) for 30 days so that at 1290, God's congregation officially falls into desolation. Thus understood, the times intimate that the overthrow of the Church by antichrist, and the delivery of the saints, will be accomplished by two successive interpositions, 1260 is the time of testimony, after 1260 the end of testimony, and 1290 being the fall when they are to come out and wait.

Quite a word salad you’ve employed to answers a simple yes or no question...

Yes, there is only one time of Abomination of Desolation.

Then why did you object so vehemently to me asking if you believed it was for one generation only, and not for the entire church throughout the ages, if you truly agree?

Your argument has been that it was for the entire church not just one generation. Now you’re saying it is for one generation only.

I Guess you’re going to need to abandon the “it’s meant for all the church of all time” argument now, so what else you got ??

However, that did not occur in 70AD. It comes after the 1,260 days of Testimony which will stand on the 1,290th day. Obviously in the future to our time!

I guess that answers the “what else you got” question.
What Else you have is the word “obviously”.
So “obviously” is your defense?
“Obviously” is your proof?

obviously you’re wrong

Again Jesus warned his disciples exclusively: “when you [disciples standing there] see the abomination of desolation then those in Judea flee to the mountains”

You’ll notice he didn’t say if you see, he said when you see. The reason the disciples expected to see it is because Jesus Told them to expect to see it.
I don’t believe Jesus was mistaken. I believe he absolutely meant exactly what he said to them.

It’s obvious you don’t.

How can satan be already bound without contradicting Revelation 12?

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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Well-Known Member

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Well-Known Member

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Newbie

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Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow

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