How not to be stupid about politics

MorkandMindy said:

Basically what I'm advocating in this thread is that we must beware of the lies politicians and the media tell us because that is what is building walls of misunderstanding between us.

If we could clear out those lies we would get a lot further.

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I’ve a feeling that we’re not going to all agree with what is true and what is false. We need to accept a basic set of social facts before we try to get into political discussions.

We knew that we were going to lose manufacturing jobs since the seventies! (The only way to help “the developing world” was to let them make our widgets and doodads, then our cars, years later.)

The United States’ economy is large based on exporting War® and creating (other) entertainments.

We will need the entertainments when we have achieved the capitalist nirvana of having no need to work a job that you hate, because the only people silly enough to want a job are those cannot embrace this brave new world*!

*a hundred years, give or take

MorkandMindy said:

The statement 'We are a nation of immigrants ... '

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One of things I find especially odd for open border advocation is when they also invoke "On stolen Native American land where white people genocided the Native people!"

It's like, yeah. Hordes of foreigners streaming into your country is rarely something that works out well for the host. The American Indians absolutely *should* have slaughtered the white settlers instead of being nice to them. Their kindness was rewarded with extermination.

So why exactly would we want to emulate the now nearly extinct American Indians and just let anyone in and hope things work out better for us than previous people who did this?

Haramis said:

So why exactly would we want to emulate the now nearly extinct American Indians and just let anyone in and hope things work out better for us than previous people who did this?

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If you really need an answer to this, then maybe you’re not a “good fit” in this country?

Man reaps what he sows.

MorkandMindy said:

'We are a nation of immigrants' The backing of the media and the nation's largest political party gives the statement enough credence so a lot of people won't think about it, but it is seriously flawed on many levels.

First there is a little sleight of hand because we are not a nation of immigrants. Many of us do have immigrant parents or grandparents or perhaps further back,

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I can't agree that it is "slight of hand." Instead, the idea is that our nation is made up of immigrants or the "children of" immigrants -- meaning that our ancestors were immigrants to this country. And, outside of those that are primarily of Native American descent, this is true.

MorkandMindy said:

but then also they were legal immigrants in most cases.

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And this is "sleight of hand" -- since for pretty much all immigrants who came to the US, "legal immigrant" has little real meaning, since there were basically no qualifications for Europeans who immigrated to the US; nor was their any type of mechanism set up to find, much less, remove anyone who wasn't a "legal immigrant." Once they were in the country they were basically "legal" by default.

MorkandMindy said:

Why do we have restrictions on immigrants now when they didn't exist in the past? When didn't they?

So a few got through in the distant past without meeting various requirements, not an obvious and convincing argument anymore.

But it gets worse. The argument is claimed to be A-priori, based on simple logic and not requiring data to support it. It could support immigration of 900,000 a year as at present or an unlimited number as a number of the more socialist European countries have decided.

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And the simplest explanation for our restrictions today are "racism." We had no issue letting in "people like us" -- up until the 1920s, and beyond, the only real restrictions actually created tended to be 1) Not Chinese and 2) that the people were not immoral (prostitutes and convicts were banned in 1875 -- and more morality prohibitions were created over the years).

In the 1920's, the Chinese prohibition was lifted but, in exchange, we saw the first quote systems. Of course, those quotas basically allowed anyone who showed up from Europe, while placing severe limits on Chinese, Japanese, and other "not like us" countries. Over the last century we've progressively become more restrictive with immigration but we've largely retained the bias that allows someone from a European country to immigrate, and much harder for individuals from other parts of the world.

"How not to be stupid about politics"

Don't elect people who say that they don't believe in government and/or don't believe that government can do anything right, because they will make that a reality once in office.

Class dismissed.
Ringo

MorkandMindy said:

'We are a nation of immigrants' The backing of the media and the nation's largest political party gives the statement enough credence so a lot of people won't think about it, but it is seriously flawed on many levels.

First there is a little sleight of hand because we are not a nation of immigrants. Many of us do have immigrant parents or grandparents or perhaps further back, but then also they were legal immigrants in most cases.

Why do we have restrictions on immigrants now when they didn't exist in the past? When didn't they?

So a few got through in the distant past without meeting various requirements, not an obvious and convincing argument anymore.

But it gets worse. The argument is claimed to be A-priori, based on simple logic and not requiring data to support it. It could support immigration of 900,000 a year as at present or an unlimited number as a number of the more socialist European countries have decided.

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Uh...unless you're a Native American, your family wasn't born in this country. That's what 'nation of immigrants' means.

Hope this helps!
Ringo