If God is, and always has been, omniscient, and it is all of Him and none of us that...?

Handmaid for Jesus said:

KJV

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Thank you.

Romans 9
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Why do people try to elevate man's will?

fhansen said:

Adam had a choice, and sufficient knowledge to make the right choice. Because if Adam didn't have a choice, if everything was predetermined and Adam was nothing more than a pawn

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Actually, not true. Predetermined choices can be free. Freedom is not randomness.

We are both free and predetermined.

Neogaia777 said:

The last part yeah... But didn't God have and know about that plan for salvation that He had in place, from before making Adam and Eve, and The Garden, ect...? Yes or No...?

How He makes good come out of bad for us, the bad being only a temporary necessary evil for a short time, does full knowledge of it, "full knowledge of it" mean it's not what he intended, or not...? Yes or No...? And because He made it all that way anyway, seeing the very very good end of it, at or near the end of it... anyway, because he made it all anyway, having "full knowledge of it all", does that mean he caused or is the cause or source of it all (as you say, "directly")...?

Or does it just maybe mean that we don't really have real choice like He has yet... And were just way to predictable right now, especially to and all-knowing God, why do you think he tells us stuff in advanced, He can simply say to you "Hey, I knew, way, sometimes way, way ahead of time, I knew, and I know all the time, I knew the entire time, and I just wanted to you all to know that" (or something like that)...? And why would He be trying to do that do you think...?

Anyway, Because He (God) weighed the consequences compared to the rewards of this temporary evil in the light of eternity, and made a decision, based on weighing those out... I glad He chose what he did, otherwise none of us would even be here to talk about it or Him or anything at all cause we all wouldn't even exist, none of us...

I'm glad God is wise and patient and kind and merciful and loving and generous and liberal and kind and patient, waiting on fruit probably...

God Bless!

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I like that-"waiting on fruit". A teaching I'm familiar with says that God has an overall purpose; He made His universe in a "state of journeying to perfection". And man's will is necessarily involved in this, which is where God's patient waiting comes into play, along with His revelation and grace. And the more we participate in this perfecting the more we own our own justice. God wants the very best from-and for-us. This whole endeavor of creation and the Fall isn't to just make a bunch of worthless worms and then decide to send some to heaven, some to hell. Yes, He's always had a plan, a grand one, knowing the beginning from the end.

Didaskalos said:

I think you have stated, howbeit in reverse, what has to be true.
If indeed God were "omni-everything" as suggested, then everything in creation would simply be and extension of His being. This concept certainly falls inward upon itself.
My position, and the position that I think is obvious, is that all of creation is in fact separate from God.
I have seen how that many Christians have replaced the "Jesus image" of God with a "OMNI" image. They even overrule the gospel and the very words of Jesus with their erroneous concepts commonly called the "General Attributes of God" i.e the Omni principles. This is pantheism or even panentheism. If indeed creation reveals to us the invisible nature of God... then what we see in creation does not tell of a good God. Pretty nasty in fact.
Fact is God and His creation are separate. This would seem self evident.

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I agree God is separate from his creation and I'm not trying to defend this idea that God is everything but rather play into the problems you get when you hyper-focus on these omni-characteristics which seems to be where the direction of the OP is going. God is separate from his creation therefore I have sovereignty over my own choices.

fhansen said:

So that would mean that God created us corrupt?

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God created Adam perfectly sinless. But when given a law, Adam wanted to break it.

God allows Man's Spiritual "free will" to operate WITHIN His superior will. God calls. Man answers.

Phoebe Ann said:

Thank you.

Romans 9
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Why do people try to elevate man's will?

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Remember, God created man in His image. Man lost that image in the fall. Adam, like Lord Jesus had no sin in him. Adam was God's first son, created in His image. Adam had his own will (thus, the power to choose). Now, that power has been corrupted by the sin nature, but man still possess it, and it is still an awesome power. It is not as awesome as God's will, I am not saying that. But man's will is still very powerful.

Neogaia777 said:

If God is, and always has been, fully omniscient, and it is all of Him and none of us that saves us, no works or self-effort or self-will or whatever... doesn't that also mean that He created it all (us) to be the way it (or they, us) is or are, or is going, ect...? And what path they or it or us all takes and is taking...?

Anyway, if God is and always has been 100% fully omniscient, doesn't He choose who goes where, Heaven or Hell, ect, that we don't send ourselves there (no real choice) or what, if God is and always has been 100% fully omniscient...? Doesn't that (100% full omniscience) negate any real "choice"...? Or not...?

That we could all be part of some kind of "program" maybe...? Or have been and are programmed...? And are running it...? What we are, and what we were, and what we will become, every detail of it all, is all fully known to Him...?

Does that negate free will, or self will (for us)...?

Comments...?

God Bless!

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I’ll give a scenario.

Say you have a mom and son. The mom plans to drop him off to school. She knows if she drives him to school, drops him off the school and he enters the school that he should be in school. That are her plans.

But she dropping him off to school doesn’t negate the choice for him to find a way not to stay in school. He could cut. He could have trick his mom and not go to class. Kids are creative.

His choices also didn’t negate the fact that the mom did put him in school . She orchestrated that he will be there. But she also warns about cutting, about hanging with the wrong crowd. And her speeches will be based on the steps he’s taking and also her knowledge of him. It will be along the lines of “ my plans is to have you be in school to graduate”. God who created us all would know much more of course, but within that same concept.

So yes God is all-knowing, but not in a way where he already sentenced us. He knows the plans he have for us, he knows based on His will where He would be orchestrating is, he direct our path.But at the same time he also knows that if we take the route that we intend to do outside of that, the consequences. We make the path every time we choose. He knows the intricacies of this life, He is the designer who best know which path to be on to ensure us going where we need to be. That’s why we have to have such a relationship with God where He can order our steps, and hold our hand as a mother/father does with his son, and trust God as a son trusted his mother/father.

No path is too far from God as long as we are alive, but we can sabatoge opportunities of being with Him by further our heart from Him in thought and action.

Dave L said:

God created Adam perfectly sinless. But when given a law, Adam wanted to break it.

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Ok,l so rather than say that we're a corrupt species, proved by Adam, I think it would be more accurate to simply say that Adam willed to break God's commandment. I don't think we can take it much beyond that although the question, "Why did Adam sin?" is a good one, and one that's been much pondered.

Neogaia777 said:

If God is, and always has been, fully omniscient, and it is all of Him and none of us that saves us, no works or self-effort or self-will or whatever... doesn't that also mean that He created it all (us) to be the way it (or they, us) is or are, or is going, ect...? And what path they or it or us all takes and is taking...?

Anyway, if God is and always has been 100% fully omniscient, doesn't He choose who goes where, Heaven or Hell, ect, that we don't send ourselves there (no real choice) or what, if God is and always has been 100% fully omniscient...? Doesn't that (100% full omniscience) negate any real "choice"...? Or not...?

That we could all be part of some kind of "program" maybe...? Or have been and are programmed...? And are running it...? What we are, and what we were, and what we will become, every detail of it all, is all fully known to Him...?

Does that negate free will, or self will (for us)...?

Comments...?

God Bless!

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Neo,

You probe some excellent but provocative issues with your post.

In this hypothesising, I would not use the language of 'if God is ... if God is and always has been'.

The biblical evidence is: Since God is and always has been (Gen 1:1). Psalm 90:2 (NIV) states, 'Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the whole world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God'.

If it not an 'if' about God's eternity, then it is factual reality, 'Since'.

How do you deal with what happened in the Garden of Eden?


So, from the beginning of time, God built into the university the ability of human beings to make choices, beginning here with Adam.

Eternal salvation is created by God Himself, salvation being the gift of God (Eph 2:8-9). Is it salvation for a group of people chosen sovereignly by God and he neglects the others for decrees damnation for them?

That is not supported by the biblical texts, in my understanding. We know this:

1. 'No one can come to me unless drawn by the Father who sent me; and I will raise that person up on the last day' (John 6:44 NRSV). There is no salvation without God the Father's drawing those people.
2. Who can be drawn? John 12 32 (NRSV) states: 'And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself'. So, all people can be drawn to Jesus.
3. But there's a snag from Gen 2:16-17 (NIV), the God-given power of alternate choice (free will). People can choose to accept or reject God's drawing power (see John 3:16-21; 3:36; 5:24 Acts 16:31; Rom 1:18; Joshua 24:14-15).

The sovereign Lord has built human free will into human beings so that, when the Gospel is proclaimed, God gives them the choice to accept or reject salvation. I do not believe the Bible teaches forced salvation.

Oz

Phoebe Ann said:

Why do people try to elevate man's will?

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Phoebe,

I can speak only for me. I want to be an honest exegete of Scripture.

What did God give to Adam in the Garden according to Gen 2:16-17 (NIV)?


The gift of free will (the power of alternate choice) was given to our first parent, Adam, from the beginning. Adam could choose to eat or not to eat.

Do you disagree that Adam, a 'very good' person, had the gift of free will given to him so that he could choose to eat or not to eat from the tree in the Garden?

When it came to the time of the Israelites in Joshua's day, what did he state?


The Israelites could choose to serve the Lord God or they could choose to worship other gods.

When it comes to salvation, what did Paul and Silas say to the Philippian jailer when he asked: 'Sirs, what must I do to be saved'? They didn't say, 'Do nothing. God has sovereignly saved you and you are in the kingdom automatically, through unconditional election and irresistible grace'.

They never said anything even close to that. Instead, they commanded '[you] believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved – you and your household' (Acts 16:31 NIV).

See also Rom 1:18 (NIV).

I'm obtaining this emphasis from the Bible. I am not elevating man's and woman's will. I'm telling it as it is. The Bible tells me so.

I deal with some of this content in my article, What is the nature of human free will?

Oz

fhansen said:

Ok,l so rather than say that we're a corrupt species, proved by Adam, I think it would be more accurate to simply say that Adam willed to break God's commandment. I don't think we can take it much beyond that although the question, "Why did Adam sin?" is a good one, and one that's been much pondered.

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So, do you consider God gave Adam the ability to will to break God's commandment from the beginning of time?

OzSpen said:

So, do you consider God gave Adam the ability to will to break God's commandment from the beginning of time?

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God gave Adam & Eve free will. They could use it rightly, which would mean obedience, or they could abuse it, using it wrongly, meaning disobedience.

Neogaia777 said:

If God is, and always has been, fully omniscient, and it is all of Him and none of us that saves us, no works or self-effort or self-will or whatever... doesn't that also mean that He created it all (us) to be the way it (or they, us) is or are, or is going, ect...? And what path they or it or us all takes and is taking...?

Anyway, if God is and always has been 100% fully omniscient, doesn't He choose who goes where, Heaven or Hell, ect, that we don't send ourselves there (no real choice) or what, if God is and always has been 100% fully omniscient...? Doesn't that (100% full omniscience) negate any real "choice"...? Or not...?

That we could all be part of some kind of "program" maybe...? Or have been and are programmed...? And are running it...? What we are, and what we were, and what we will become, every detail of it all, is all fully known to Him...?

Does that negate free will, or self will (for us)...?

Comments...?

God Bless!

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This question is one of the reasons why I have such strong leanings toward multiple time lines...... .multiple fulfillments of the
Ezekiel 37
resurrection in which new versions of us may be led to salvation that did not make it to Paradise / Heaven in other time lines?

Multiverse Theory and multiple Ezekiel 37 type events.

Neogaia777 said:

The only possibility for choice, is if God designed it/this with multiple upon multiple possibilities and possible outcomes, consequences or effects, ect, and/but still weaves those all together regardless of lot's of choices being able to change it or alter it, send it down different paths, ect, regardless of that or those changes in it, there could many possibilities and outcomes as a part of God design of it, but, it would still be His "design", and would he not know, how it was "all gonna go", basically, regardless...? Are not our supposed choices dictated by causality, or all due to prior factors, ect, going all the way back to the original one and only uncaused cause... The rest are caused from there...

God Bless!

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The problem is that you render any free will impossible if you insist that God's foreknowledge implies determinism. If that's true, then all criminals: murderers, rapists, etc, should be set free on moral grounds-because, after all, God made them do it. We certainly would no longer have the right to express moral outrage at any injustices committed in any case. And yet James tells us that God doesn't even tempt anyone, that we sin when carried away by our own lusts and desires.

God knows everything; He exists outside of time. But we exist in our world within time, and so whether or not God even exists we make the same moral choices, that we're responsible for, everyday. Man is simply not some morally irresponsible beast; he is culpable for his actions.

Neogaia777 said:

We have to punish evil in this world, that's why we have authorities and judicial and courts and prison systems, Law and justice, ect... But, we no longer just kill a lot of people, like used to happen so often, or torture people or prisoners anymore, even prisoners have certain rights in this country, but, out of our sense of justice, and for our own protection, we do have to punish evil and evildoers, or and especially serious wrong or very bad wrongs and evils in this world, but not judge their eternal destination or ability to become redeemed or reformed at some point either...

I would like you to look at post #175 two posts above this that I edited if you would or might please...?

And the post you quoted again, as God could very well incorporated some kind of "choice system" into it or His design (creation) and/or us as well... Where we affect things greatly sometimes, cause I'm not talking about the kind where we don't affect anything at all, in fact, quite the opposite really...

God Bless!

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Yes, God is the cause of everything, so indirectly He's the cause of every act committed by a free moral agent, but not the direct cause in that case, because He allows that agent to act even if in opposition to His own will. Free will necessarily gives us the ability to oppose God's will. So He allows rather than causes evil, for a time, and for His purposes.

And we don't resist evil just because its practical to imprison bad characters in order to prevent them from harming others. We also do it out of a sense of justice, out of righteous indignation because we know right from wrong and know the perpetrator had a choice. That's what makes an act particularly evil.