If God is, and always has been, omniscient, and it is all of Him and none of us that...?

[fhansen]

Can anyone who loves him really do anything in opposition to His will, or that He cannot work out for the ultimate good of those who Love Him...?

Yes, and to the extent that we love Him, we don't want to disobey.

I don't think so, now maybe God's will has multiple paths or wills, but doesn't He already know those paths, or what we are gonna choose, long before even making us or anything really...? Made us and Made us the way we are anyway, full well knowing all that would happen and follow, clear to the end and new beginning again, or new beginnings again...

Allows and causes are not two independent things when talking about God, or the way God see's them in respect to Himself...

Yes they are. God cannot will that a child be raped and tortured-or I guarantee you that heaven should be no better than hell. But He can will that we have the freedom to do whatever we want and are physically capable of, for a time until He no longer allows evil and good to coexist.

Are you saying we should hate them, and then what, star maliciously mistreating them and/or abusing them, maybe even torturing them next...? then come up with ever more creative ways and means to torture after that...?

Of course not, ideally we should love them in fact. The point I was making is that man has a sense of justice which should not be denied and we don't operate like robots, mechanically sending criminals to jail for practical reasons only. We can and should recognize and hate evil/sin when we see it, without hating the sinner.

 

[Neogaia777]

In the beginning, before anything was made, God looked at all the possibilities or ways he could make it, and how it or they would all go, the course all would take, ect, and chose to make this one, this way, for us, anyway...

He looked at all the good and bad over a very long period of time, and could see everything that would happen or would not happen, ect, both the good and bad down to the smallest details, ect, and, again "how it would all go and the course it all or each one of us would take, or have to deal with, (abuse, rape, neglect, and all the evil) (but also the good, never forget about the good) and made it/this all this way, and to go this way, anyway, take this path and this course anyway, ect...

In that way He is the ultimate cause of all of it, even things like rape, murder, ect, because He looked at "all of it over all it's time", and chose to make it and it to be the way it is, from maybe many possibilities, anyway, and made it and us (or all of it) all this or that way anyway...

Now does that make Him evil because He made evil but for a very good reason and purpose, or that He would show Himself able to, for us, make it all (also the evil) for a very good reason and purpose, that would come about in the end...?

And if none of us chose it, or any of it, (the course of anything, or anything in general) Then did God choose for the evil to happen or did He "make the evil happen" cause we have no choice and He made it all the way it is (us, ect) anyway...? Cause He did it/that anyway, does that make evil...? Or does it make Him good maybe...?

If He did that way He must have had a very, very good reason for it, as He chose for it to all take (place) and go the course it does or did, even the evil, but also the good... But, since he chose for it to happen and it all go the way it did, or does, and because He chose to make it the way He did, or does, then does that make either us or Him, (since we have no choice) personally responsible for any of it...? Or in any way to held personally accountable for it...? or not...?

Just because God did that/this, does that make Him a Sadist because of the evil or anything...?

Or some might think He is a Sadist for choosing to make us and it all the way it is, or things are, and if there is or was no choice, then sending some people to hell afterward, some may say He is Sadist for or because of that maybe...? But, I do not... cause I know what hell is, where it is or takes place, what it is not, and exactly what it really is, ect, and when you know that, it all starts to make perfect sense, and does not mean God is any kind of Sadist at all, even if people don't really have choice in the matter, He is still not a Sadist at all...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

In the beginning, before anything was made, God looked at all the possibilities or ways he could make it, and how it or they would all go, the course all would take, ect, and chose to make this one, this way, for us, anyway...

He looked at all the good and bad over a very long period of time, and could see everything that would happen or would not happen, ect, both the good and bad down to the smallest details, ect, and, again "how it would all go and the course it all or each one of us would take, or have to deal with, (abuse, rape, neglect, and all the evil) (but also the good, never forget about the good) and made it/this all this way, and to go this way, anyway, take this path and this course anyway, ect...

In that way He is the ultimate cause of all of it, even things like rape, murder, ect, because He looked at "all of it over all it's time", and chose to make it and it to be the way it is, from maybe many possibilities, anyway, and made it and us (or all of it) all this or that way anyway...

Now does that make Him evil because He made evil but for a very good reason and purpose, or that He would show Himself able to, for us, make it all (also the evil) for a very good reason and purpose, that would come about in the end...?

And if none of us chose it, or any of it, (the course of anything, or anything in general) Then did God choose for the evil to happen or did He "make the evil happen" cause we have no choice and He made it all the way it is (us, ect) anyway...? Cause He did it/that anyway, does that make evil...? Or does it make Him good maybe...?

If He did that way He must have had a very, very good reason for it, as He chose for it to all take (place) and go the course it does or did, even the evil, but also the good... But, since he chose for it to happen and it all go the way it did, or does, and because He chose to make it the way He did, or does, then does that make either us or Him, (since we have no choice) personally responsible for any of it...? Or in any way to held personally accountable for it...? or not...?

Just because God did that/this, does that make Him a Sadist because of the evil or anything...?

Or some might think He is a Sadist for choosing to make us and it all the way it is, or things are, and if there is or was no choice, then sending some people to hell afterward, some may say He is Sadist for or because of that maybe...? But, I do not... cause I know what hell is, where it is or takes place, what it is not, and exactly what it really is, ect, and when you know that, it all starts to make perfect sense, and does not mean God is any kind of Sadist at all, even if people don't really have choice in the matter, He is still not a Sadist at all...

God Bless!

I know some of you are thinking God being God could have chose a better way right...?

But better how...? And for just you or everybody...? and including men and angels, or what...?

This is the best way for us right now, and for all parties involved, and God always does what is best, especially or what will produce the very greatest and best outcome in the end, which He saw and considered and is why He made things this way...

And while it may be very hard for us to see, this is what is "best" for us right now... and God has always been doing what is best for us at the time, and considering the time or times... And of course also the ending or eventual outcome of it all as well... Trust Him, it will all be well worth it in the end...

But not just the end only but right now also, as I said it is a bit difficult to see just how this is what is best for us right now, but it is...

God is good and a good God, even if and when we do not or may not have choice, He is still awesome and very good, especially in or by the end, because that's probably when we will see it or come to fully know and fully realize it/that, that the omniscient God, even if we don't have true choice "right now", is still very, very good indeed...

God Bless!

 

[AmanOfMacedonia]

The only way to understand this, again, is by comparing God to ourselves.
Let's ask ourselves one question, Why do we give birth to our children? The answer is simple, we need someone to love and that we can love unconditionally. Yes, if you don't count the children that were not wanted by the parents and were born as an "accident", most of us are willing to have kids so we can love them just like we were loved and if possibly more.
Now, let's imagine some of the worst scenarios: The kid grows up and dies in a car accident, or becomes a criminal, or commits suicide.
The BIG Question is: Do you sincerely think that any normal loving parent wishes that he never had that child. I am sure that the child have been warned by the parents at least a 1000 times about the actions he is taking but he /she freely chooses to disobey. And the most important thing is that the parent if asked would always gladly chose to start all-over fresh from the beginning at any point and to use any possibility to save the child or at least to spend some more quality time together.

Same thing is with God, The only difference is that He loves us perfectly. There is no error in His love, He literally gave His life for us. And if there was a better way for him to show us His love he would have done it, but there isn't. Jesus' life on Earth was a perfect example of how one should love another, He spent most of His life healing and teaching, and at the end He paid the ultimate price, He allowed us to judge Him and to kill Him, and yet on the Cross, with His last breath asked for us to be forgiven.
"Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." In that sentence we can see that He is aware of our lack of knowledge, and in the same time He allowed to be voted against and Even though He is the Sovereign King, He submitted His life to the general principles of Democracy and the freedom of choice.

We the Christians are no better than anyone else, the only difference is that at some point God has touched our lives sooooo strongly that we became aware of what we did. We have put Him on that Cross with our self-centered life and the only thing left for us to do is to spend the rest of our lives preventing others from doing the same mistake. The cross is internally raised and Jesus is about to be crucified. The question is: Who do you think He is?

And that is a PERFECT example of freedom of choice

Earlier someone compared God as unfair Chess player, playing with us a Chess game in which He always wins because He knows all the moves (Which by the way is something that is happening now between us and the robots). This worldview is motivated by the uncontrolled desire to win.

No my friend, the chess game with God is like a chess game with our father, It is not a competition for a title or medal, it is simply for the pleasure of spending time together and of learning some good moves along the way.

Jesus saved so many lives while he was walking on Earth. But let's not forget He is still working and healing. On one occasion I witnessed a young trained professional bringing back to life an overdosed drug addict in a shelter. To come to that point in life this professional had to make series of choices like going to school, be willing to learn, and lastly to have willingness to help the one in need. The drug addict on the other hand chose to spend his youth in pleasure and under the influence of drugs. But to be honest it can be other way around if he after this near death experience, choses to change completely and find the true meaning of life and starts serving God by loving and helping people. And the trained professional could end up like the seed planted between the thorns and His pride can cause him accept some self destructive addictions and end up in worst condition that the person that was brought back to life.
If you ask me why do I think the All-knowing and Benevolent God created evil, My answer is He didn't, He created everything good, but the absolute freedom, unfortunately also means to have potential to become evil. Also, evil exists but in the same time there is goodness and forgiveness so we can learn from mistakes and change.
Finally, do not forget, we are not in Heaven. Since Adam we are sentenced to spend our lives in this material world, and along the way to be alert, observant and never ignorant of the wanders that are happening all around us, so we can ask questions and find answers. The final answer, the final truth is always God.

 

[Neogaia777]

The only way to understand this, again, is by comparing God to ourselves.
Let's ask ourselves one question, Why do we give birth to our children? The answer is simple, we need someone to love and that we can love unconditionally. Yes, if you don't count the children that were not wanted by the parents and were born as an "accident", most of us are willing to have kids so we can love them just like we were loved and if possibly more.
Now, let's imagine some of the worst scenarios: The kid grows up and dies in a car accident, or becomes a criminal, or commits suicide.
The BIG Question is: Do you sincerely think that any normal loving parent wishes that he never had that child. I am sure that the child have been warned by the parents at least a 1000 times about the actions he is taking but he /she freely chooses to disobey. And the most important thing is that the parent if asked would always gladly chose to start all-over fresh from the beginning at any point and to use any possibility to save the child or at least to spend some more quality time together.

Same thing is with God, The only difference is that He loves us perfectly. There is no error in His love, He literally gave His life for us. And if there was a better way for him to show us His love he would have done it, but there isn't. Jesus' life on Earth was a perfect example of how one should love another, He spent most of His life healing and teaching, and at the end He paid the ultimate price, He allowed us to judge Him and to kill Him, and yet on the Cross, with His last breath asked for us to be forgiven.
"Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." In that sentence we can see that He is aware of our lack of knowledge, and in the same time He allowed to be voted against and Even though He is the Sovereign King, He submitted His life to the general principles of Democracy and the freedom of choice.

We the Christians are no better than anyone else, the only difference is that at some point God has touched our lives sooooo strongly that we became aware of what we did. We have put Him on that Cross with our self-centered life and the only thing left for us to do is to spend the rest of our lives preventing others from doing the same mistake. The cross is internally raised and Jesus is about to be crucified. The question is: Who do you think He is?

And that is a PERFECT example of freedom of choice

Earlier someone compared God as unfair Chess player, playing with us a Chess game in which He always wins because He knows all the moves (Which by the way is something that is happening now between us and the robots). This worldview is motivated by the uncontrolled desire to win.

No my friend, the chess game with God is like a chess game with our father, It is not a competition for a title or medal, it is simply for the pleasure of spending time together and of learning some good moves along the way.

Jesus saved so many lives while he was walking on Earth. But let's not forget He is still working and healing. On one occasion I witnessed a young trained professional bringing back to life an overdosed drug addict in a shelter. To come to that point in life this professional had to make series of choices like going to school, be willing to learn, and lastly to have willingness to help the one in need. The drug addict on the other hand chose to spend his youth in pleasure and under the influence of drugs. But to be honest it can be other way around if he after this near death experience, choses to change completely and find the true meaning of life and starts serving God by loving and helping people. And the trained professional could end up like the seed planted between the thorns and His pride can cause him accept some self destructive addictions and end up in worst condition that the person that was brought back to life.
If you ask me why do I think the All-knowing and Benevolent God created evil, My answer is He didn't, He created everything good, but the absolute freedom, unfortunately also means to have potential to become evil. Also, evil exists but in the same time there is goodness and forgiveness so we can learn from mistakes and change.
Finally, do not forget, we are not in Heaven. Since Adam we are sentenced to spend our lives in this material world, and along the way to be alert, observant and never ignorant of the wanders that are happening all around us, so we can ask questions and find answers. The final answer, the final truth is always God.

It's a nice post and it sounds good, but your just not understanding 100% full omniscience...

In it's purest and truest and most 100% form, how does it not eliminate the possibility of choice by lesser creatures created, made, or supposedly given "life" by that one...?

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

The omniscient God, is also omni-benevolent... or all and always and/or "all good" as well... and I'm trying to also show how a truly omniscient God can also be omni-benevolent as well, because those two are very hard for many to reconcile...

And is why many just will not put down, nor lay down their own will, or (supposed) free will... Because of being unable to reconcile these two...

It's a major stumbling block to many...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

.

 

[CaspianSails]

If God is, and always has been, fully omniscient, and it is all of Him and none of us that saves us, no works or self-effort or self-will or whatever... doesn't that also mean that He created it all (us) to be the way it (or they, us) is or are, or is going, ect...? And what path they or it or us all takes and is taking...?

Anyway, if God is and always has been 100% fully omniscient, doesn't He choose who goes where, Heaven or Hell, ect, that we don't send ourselves there (no real choice) or what, if God is and always has been 100% fully omniscient...? Doesn't that (100% full omniscience) negate any real "choice"...? Or not...?

That we could all be part of some kind of "program" maybe...? Or have been and are programmed...? And are running it...? What we are, and what we were, and what we will become, every detail of it all, is all fully known to Him...?

Does that negate free will, or self will (for us)...?

Comments...?

God Bless!

I will start by saying I have not read the entire thread but this is a hodgepodge of ideas. To start with if God is this or that when we know full well that God is eternal and omniscient, omnipresent and so on then it is not a question of if God is, it is a question in your mind as to what we are is it not? God is all those attributes and God knows the past, the present and the future. That in no way negates the choices we make and have made which determine our present and our future. His knowledge of your choice does not negate your choice. This is not SIM City.

 

[Neogaia777]

YHWH or God in the OT was not always 100% fully omniscient, and that poses a problem, and if you cannot see that, you are blind...

 

[Unnamed Guy]

YHWH or God in the OT was not always 100% fully omniscient, and that poses a problem, and if you cannot see that, you are blind...

Please, can we discuss this without the personal insults?

 

[Radagast]

.

 

[Radagast]

YHWH or God in the OT was not always 100% fully omniscient

This is heresy, plain and simple.

 

[Neogaia777]

Please, can we discuss this without the personal insults?

Not an insult but a statement of fact...

Not many people get this revelation, cause not many want to, or are brave enough to, really, but it's really quite simple...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

This is heresy, plain and simple.

No, it is fact...

Why is it heresy...? Can you tell exactly what specifically, makes it heresy...?

Heresy is something people yell, when they do not or will accept logic or reason, that shatters the false god they had made in their own image and likeness instead of the truth about the real God...

God Bless!

 

[Unnamed Guy]

Not an insult but a statement of fact...

Not many people get this revelation, cause not many want to, or are brave enough to, really, but it's really quite simple...

God Bless!

Whatever you call it, you need to learn better manners so you can get your point across without sticking anybody with it.

 

[CaspianSails]

YHWH or God in the OT was not always 100% fully omniscient, and that poses a problem, and if you cannot see that, you are blind...

Evidence? As in what do you see that demonstrates that God is not omniscient? I believe I know where you are going with this and we will not agree.

If God is not omniscient why would you postulate we should surrender our will to His perfect will which was formed out of His knowing all things.

And I agree lets not get personal here. I am not blind, I was blind but not now.