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Featured If God is, and always has been, omniscient, and it is all of Him and none of us that...?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Neogaia777, Dec 14, 2018.

  1. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    If God is, and always has been, fully omniscient, and it is all of Him and none of us that saves us, no works or self-effort or self-will or whatever... doesn't that also mean that He created it all (us) to be the way it (or they, us) is or are, or is going, ect...? And what path they or it or us all takes and is taking...?

    Anyway, if God is and always has been 100% fully omniscient, doesn't He choose who goes where, Heaven or Hell, ect, that we don't send ourselves there (no real choice) or what, if God is and always has been 100% fully omniscient...? Doesn't that (100% full omniscience) negate any real "choice"...? Or not...?

    That we could all be part of some kind of "program" maybe...? Or have been and are programmed...? And are running it...? What we are, and what we were, and what we will become, every detail of it all, is all fully known to Him...?

    Does that negate free will, or self will (for us)...?

    Comments...?

    God Bless!
     
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  2. JohnB445

    JohnB445 Well-Known Member

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    I think this is all a mystery that no one can fully understand, I call it the mystery of God's heavenly decree.

    But we do know its all God's redemptive work. Whether or not we play any part of it, doesn't seem to matter as long as we are loving God with all all heart, producing the works of the spirit, having full faith in Jesus Christ.

    Apart from him we can do nothing. I've read both sides and the Bible doesn't tell us the full picture on how the mechanics of God's Decree works, so we leave it at that.

    Trying to understand predestination/free will is like trying to fully understand the Trinity.
     
  3. TuxAme

    TuxAme Quis ut Deus? Supporter

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    Knowing about our eternal destiny doesn't automatically suggest that God has also predestined us for the path we took.
     
  4. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    He didn't create us to be that way...?

    Or Make or made or caused us to be the way we are and/or turn(ed) out...? And everything is the way it is, and where it is, and where it's all going, and what it's going to do or be doing... doesn't He know that all, and at all times, from the very beginning...?

    Or not...?

    God Bless!
     
  5. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    And is in it all...?
     
  6. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    Then He didn't know about it...? Or doesn't know about it...?

    God Bless!
     
  7. bcbsr

    bcbsr Newbie

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    That's kind of the Calvinist way of thinking. But not all of us are Calvinists.
     
  8. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    I'm asking, and I don't care what you want to say it is or what kind of theological box you will probably try to put it in, the questions are valid...

    I'm just asking...?

    God Bless!
     
  9. bcbsr

    bcbsr Newbie

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    My personal answer would be that your assumption is wrong. Otherwise ask a Calvinist.
     
  10. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    I'm not making any assumptions, I'm asking questions... if only maybe around the fact or the assumption that God is supposed to be, or have been always and still is, always 100% fully omniscient, and always has been so from the very beginning, and that we are all fully and all to predictable, predictable beings to Him... and in fact all of life and creation its/themselves is all fully predictable to Him as well, and he already knew it and could predict it all long ago, from the very beginning, ect...

    IOW's Do you mean my assumption about God being 100% always fully omniscient is wrong, or perhaps about how he is fully omniscient, or my own assumptions on how a always 100% fully omniscient God would have to be, to be 100% always fully omniscient maybe...? If so, or if you do mean that, could you explain maybe...? How would He (God) be...?

    And I'm not a Calvinist...

    God Bless!
     
  11. Unnamed Guy

    Unnamed Guy Member

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    "If" -- You say "If" but I suspect you do not allow the possibility that your "If" may not apply. The world is full of people who say "If" but they firmly believe that they are stating a law of the universe. There is nothing to be gained from talking to such people.

    So what is your condition? Are you willing to consider that your "If" is not so? Are you actually making a statement, rather than asking a question? Consider: If God knows everything, there is no reason for commandments. But if you can't consider, then there is no reason to discuss it.
     
  12. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    We are made in God's likeness. God is sovereign, and He made us sovereign over our own choices. We DO have free will. Look at the Jews. They are God's elect, yet not all Jews were saved.
     
  13. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    How does that work with omniscience...?

    God Bless!
     
  14. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    The only if I am stating if "If" our God is and always was 100% fully omniscient, then what follows...? And I'm asking questions about that...?

    Is one or more of my own assumptions wrong, about God and omniscience, free will, all that...? If so, then please point out the or that or those flaws please...?

    God Bless!
     
  15. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    How can He be sovereign and make us sovereign...? How's that work...?

    God Bless!
     
  16. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    Nothing. LOL Just responding to this "Does that negate free will, or self will (for us)...?
     
  17. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    He doesn't overrule our decisions, and make us puppets. Without our faith, Jesus couldn't do some miracles in like His home town. If God just used His own sovereignty, He could have just healed everyone, and saved everyone, because it is not His will that anyone should perish, but we do.
     
  18. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Apprentice Supporter

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    There would be no such thing as overruling any kind of decision, it would be a completely mute point and non issue with a completely and 100% fully omniscient from the beginning (and now, ect, past, present, and future), all-knowing God, and/or there would be no changing His mind either, which is just another mute point and non-issue with a being like that...

    Jesus was God the Son...

    That is talking about going to Hell and eternal salvation and eternal destination...

    And we do perish physically, and have many that suffer right now, and have suffered in this world, cause it temporarily God's will right now, for and in this world...

    And He has many very good reasons for that, sometimes it's just difficult for us to understand and/or comprehend sometimes... He's looking at the big picture (for us)...

    God Bless!
     
  19. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    Not sure how your responses relate to what you are responding to.

    I'm going back to bed. Nitie nite.
     
  20. Foxfyre

    Foxfyre Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I don't pretend to have answers for this kind of question, but do understand how anyone with a fertile mind can wonder about such things.

    My personal belief is that God knows what is in our thoughts at any given moment, but in order for there to be love, he allows us free will to choose how we will respond to our world, all the people in it, and Him. I have to believe that prayer does make a difference, that we can repent and change course, that we can make choices that produce better outcomes than poor choices produce.

    If everything is programmed so that we are simply puppets being manipulated by a cosmic will and have no ability to change anything, the puppeteer would be exceedingly cruel allowing those who do evil to prosper while so many people who are honorable and faithful suffer terribly. The God I know and love is not cruel.
     
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