If God is, and always has been, omniscient, and it is all of Him and none of us that...?

[section9+1]

Seems the most important attribute a Christian needs is a sense of humor.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Seems the most important attribute a Christian needs is a sense of humor.

And a little grace toward each other.
'Specially me!

 

[Neogaia777]

And a little grace toward each other.
'Specially me!

I mean, me too, God knows I need Grace from others especially with what I do on here sometimes...

God Bless!

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I mean, me too, God knows I need Grace from others especially with what I do on here sometimes...

God Bless!

You can say that again!
Kidding

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

To fix the results of the fall, disobedience "now" would be to not submit your puny little self and half-witted will over to or under the fully full well knowledgeable and all-knowing will of the always 100% omniscient always 100% sovereign, supposed to be overarching over you and your own will, eternal sovereign all-knowing and always all-knowing, Lord God...

That's the disobedience today, not fully giving your will over to His, in full exchange for all of yours... And you only have to option of not doing it because He is a gentleman and because he chooses to operate that way, though he already knows, when and what and which you will choose, ect, at all times and any times, ect...

Yet the power of choice is yours. The options are still yours to choose. God will not override your will. Yes, in obedience we are to submit our will in exchange for His perfect will. But who does that? That is why Lord Jesus came, to be a propitiation for us disobedient children.The Holy Spirit in us over time changes our will into His will.

So God was being deceptive when he pretended not to know, doesn't sound like God, or not the God that I know either...

That is your take on it. God does not deceive, an you know this.

OK... "What are our choices"...? And I mean quite literally, "what are they"...? The "what" of them...? Can they be a thing in which God does not already know the outcome (and hence, what you will choose always, at all times and at any given time) or, "What are our choices"...? Quite literally, "what are they"...? The substance of them...? Can they be a thing in which God does not already know how the choice is gonna go and be chosen ect...? Or not...? Or can they not be a thing God does not know (fully)...?

For God to be God and all...

The scriptures teach us to abide in the vine. The choice is to do or don't do what He says. Obey or disobey.God has declared the end from the beginning.

 

[Neogaia777]

Yet the power of choice is yours. The options are still yours to choose. God will not override your will. Yes, in obedience we are to submit our will in exchange for His perfect will. But who does that? That is why Lord Jesus came, to be a propitiation for us disobedient children.The Holy Spirit in us over time changes our will into His will.

The scriptures teach us to abide in the vine. The choice is to do or don't do what He says. Obey or disobey.God has declared the end from the beginning.

Did you see post #53 of mine where I talked about the "bottom line" (is) to someone, I'll quote it:

"And, the bottom line is, were gonna have to make choices all the time, (when were not spending time pondering this for example) The bottom line is, were gonna have to make to make choices all the time, and even if they are not real choices, I don't think God is gonna leave us with any other choice than to proceed as if we do have choice, even if we really do not have much of a choice, cause there is just no other choice... and that's the bottom line..."

God Bless!

 

[Rescued One]

I thought I explained it. What about my response that you do not understand?

Romans 9:16

It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it.

So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

So then, it is not of the willing, nor of the running, but of God showing mercy.

So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Which Bible translation are you using?

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

Which Bible translation are you using?

KJV

 

[DamianWarS]

Actually I am and have been conferring with Him about this for awhile now, it's not an easy subject and it is very deep, so it is taking some time...

God is omnipotent and omnipresent as well. Each of these presents logical problems when it comes to his creation co-existing for example if God is everywhere how can his creation exist at the same time? Doesn't God have to be everything to be everywhere? If God is all powerful how can his creation possibly do anything on their own accord? Doesn't God have to actually be all power to be all powerful? if God is all knowing how can his creation think for themselves, etc..?

We believe creation is separate from God so because of this creation is sovereign over their own abilities inherent to them. Although it is difficult to reconcile this with these omni-characteristics if we reject that creation is separate from God then You and I are God, this chair and table are also God, the trees and sky are also God and everything that goes in us is God and everything that comes out of us is God. It gets a little new agey that conflicts with the core of the gospel.

So I am sovereign over my own actions because creation is separate from God.

 

[Neogaia777]

God is omnipotent and omnipresent as well. Each of these presents logical problems when it comes to his creation co-existing for example if God is everywhere how can his creation exist at the same time? Doesn't God have to be everything to be everywhere? If God is all powerful how can his creation possibly do anything on their own accord? Doesn't God have to actually be all power to be all powerful? if God is all knowing how can his creation think for themselves, etc..?

We believe creation is separate from God so because of this creation is sovereign over their own abilities inherent to them. Although it is difficult to reconcile this with these omni-characteristics if we reject that creation is separate from God then You and I are God, this chair and table are also God, the trees and sky are also God and everything that goes in us is God and everything that comes out of us is God. It gets a little new agey that conflicts with the core of the gospel.

So I am sovereign over my own actions because creation is separate from God.

We will only ever see Jesus, for and because, yes, the Father is everywhere in everything and at all and in all at the same time... So and any manifestation of Him (The Father) is only ever going to or even ever even be seen or is even possible at all, unless it's through His chosen manifestation or form of Him, which is Christ, Christ exists both where we are and where the Sons of God are and where the Father is for He is the one and only bridge, or image or likeness or any manifestation or any show of power or display by the Father or "whatever" voice or image, or projection/manifestation only ever happens and is and only ever happens or "even can happen" through Christ, or by seeing Christ and You can only ever see the Father by Christ... (Colossians 1:15-17) (But all of Colossians 1)...

Colossians 1:15-17 "Who is the (any) image (or manifestation or whatever) of the invisible God (The Father), the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they bethrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Romans 9:16

It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it.

So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

So then, it is not of the willing, nor of the running, but of God showing mercy.

So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Which Bible translation are you using?

So, depends, or is completely dependent on, God's Mercy, who is The God of Mercy, who has Mercy, right...?

got it!

God Bless!

 

[DamianWarS]

We will only ever see Jesus, for and because, yes, the Father is everywhere in everything and at all and in all at the same time... So and any manifestation of Him (The Father) is only ever going to or even ever even be seen or is even possible at all, unless it's through His chosen manifestation or form of Him, which is Christ, Christ exists both where we are and where the Sons of God are and where the Father is for He is the one and only bridge, or image or likeness or any manifestation or any show of power or display by the Father or "whatever" voice or image, or projection/manifestation only ever happens and is and only ever happens or "even can happen" through Christ, or by seeing Christ and You can only ever see the Father by Christ... (Colossians 1:15-17) (But all of Colossians 1)...

Colossains 1:15-17 "Who is the (any) image (or manifestation or whatever) of the invisible God (The Father), the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they bethrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

God Bless!

Paul identifying God as invisible is a statement of ignorance not knowledge because he doesn't use it to explain the substance of God. The very idea of something separate from God is in itself counter-god because it takes away from his omni-characteristics. If I had a jar full of water I could say the water is everywhere in the jar (and all powerful in the jar, and all knowing in the jar). If I introduce a rock the water will be displaced by the rock and no longer can be said as everywhere in the jar but rather everywhere in the jar except where the rock is. Whatever characteristics the rock has are independent from the water and whatever characteristics the water has, however powerful, are displaced by the rock simply by it being there.

 

[Unnamed Guy]

The only if I am stating if "If" our God is and always was 100% fully omniscient, then what follows...? And I'm asking questions about that...?

Is one or more of my own assumptions wrong, about God and omniscience, free will, all that...? If so, then please point out the or that or those flaws please...?

God Bless!

If God were omniscient there would be no reason to give commandments.

 

[RDKirk]

If God is, and always has been, fully omniscient, and it is all of Him and none of us that saves us, no works or self-effort or self-will or whatever... doesn't that also mean that He created it all (us) to be the way it (or they, us) is or are, or is going, ect...? And what path they or it or us all takes and is taking...?

Anyway, if God is and always has been 100% fully omniscient, doesn't He choose who goes where, Heaven or Hell, ect, that we don't send ourselves there (no real choice) or what, if God is and always has been 100% fully omniscient...? Doesn't that (100% full omniscience) negate any real "choice"...? Or not...?

That we could all be part of some kind of "program" maybe...? Or have been and are programmed...? And are running it...? What we are, and what we were, and what we will become, every detail of it all, is all fully known to Him...?

Does that negate free will, or self will (for us)...?

Comments...?

God Bless!

As Mr Spock said, "A difference that makes no difference is no difference."

If you are an obedient believer, what difference does it make to you?

What are you going to do any differently?

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

Deuteronomy 29:29
James 1:13-15

We have no knowledge of what the LORD has decreed, only what He has commanded.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I think you have stated, howbeit in reverse, what has to be true.
If indeed God were "omni-everything" as suggested, then everything in creation would simply be and extension of His being. This concept certainly falls inward upon itself.
My position, and the position that I think is obvious, is that all of creation is in fact separate from God.
I have seen how that many Christians have replaced the "Jesus image" of God with a "OMNI" image. They even overrule the gospel and the very words of Jesus with their erroneous concepts commonly called the "General Attributes of God" i.e the Omni principles. This is pantheism or even panentheism. If indeed creation reveals to us the invisible nature of God... then what we see in creation does not tell of a good God. Pretty nasty in fact.
Fact is God and His creation are separate. This would seem self evident.

Paul identifying God as invisible is a statement of ignorance not knowledge because he doesn't use it to explain the substance of God. The very idea of something separate from God is in itself counter-god because it takes away from his omni-characteristics. If I had a jar full of water I could say the water is everywhere in the jar (and all powerful in the jar, and all knowing in the jar). If I introduce a rock the water will be displaced by the rock and no longer can be said as everywhere in the jar but rather everywhere in the jar except where the rock is. Whatever characteristics the rock has are independent from the water and whatever characteristics the water has, however powerful, are displaced by the rock simply by it being there.

 

[fhansen]

Adam proved we are a corrupt species under the best conditions.

So that would mean that God created us corrupt?

 

[Neogaia777]

So that would mean that God created us corrupt?

Define corrupt...? If you mean that He knew that if He set us up even a perfect system of obedience and disobedience, because they were made like Him, they would have to learn or have an affinity for disobedience, or a just slightly somewhat rebellious nature, and would have to have a period of time where they disobeyed before they would be able to learn obedience again at a future day and time, but in a new way, that this time that will not only make them capable of obeying again but that will also keep their knowledge and information in tact, that they did not have prior to that...

I think we do lead to beings like Him, and part of the mystery of that, is how we have to first learn what disobedience is, before we could ever really learn to obey, and God knew that, and the only way to teach one that, so as to be able to come back and really obey again, with that in tact, the knowledge of obedience/disobedience, is through "experience and experiencing it/them", and getting to know what it truly is and what it is not (obedience or disobedience) (goodness and badness) (fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil) (and making that distinction for yourselves and all by yourselves, and how it costs and has cost you)...

But did God know about it and all of that, you bet, why wouldn't He know all of that...

Did he create us corrupt...? Again, Define corrupt...? If it was and is all being used to lead us to Him and to being and becoming like Him and knowing Him and spending and eternity with Him, after just a very short period of time of bad (comparatively) but after that to be with Him and among Him and His kind who is also our kind, and we theirs, and we realize that now, or at that time and we see it all and everything clearly and not through a glass dimly or darkly... How were all one, and all is one, but not all is one in/and the same, ect...

Anyway, gonna stop now...

God Bless!

 

[fhansen]

Define corrupt...? If you mean that He knew that if He set us up even a perfect system of obedience and disobedience, because they were made like Him, they would have to learn or have an affinity for disobedience, or a just slightly somewhat rebellious nature, and would have to have a period of time where they disobeyed before they would be able to learn obedience again at a future day and time, but in a new way, that this time that will not only make them capable of obeying again but that will also keep their knowledge and information in tact, that they did not have prior to that...

I think we do lead to beings like Him, and part of the mystery of that, is how we have to first learn what disobedience is, before we could ever really learn to obey, and God knew that, and the only way to teach one that, so as to be able to come back and really obey again, with that in tact, the knowledge of obedience/disobedience, is through "experience and experiencing it/them", and getting to know what it truly is and what it is not (obedience or disobedience) (goodness and badness) (fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil) (and making that distinction for yourselves and all by yourselves, and how it costs and has cost you)...

But did God know about it and all of that, you bet, why wouldn't He know all of that...

Did he create us corrupt...? Again, Define corrupt...? If it was and is all being used to lead us to Him and to being and becoming like Him and knowing Him and spending and eternity with Him, after just a very short period of time of bad (comparatively) but after that to be with Him and among Him and His kind who is also our kind, and we theirs, and we realize that now, or at that time and we see it all and everything clearly and not through a glass dimly or darkly... How were all one, and all is one, but not all is one in/and the same, ect...

Anyway, gonna stop now...

God Bless!

Adam had a choice, and sufficient knowledge to make the right choice. Because if Adam didn't have a choice, if everything was predetermined and Adam was nothing more than a pawn, then God is directly responsible for all evil, for every atrocious act ever committed by man. IOW, when God commanded man not to eat of the forbidden fruit, He didn't want man to eat of it.

But, being omniscient, He also knew that Adam would eat of it and valued man's freedom enough to allow that to happen, knowing the beginning from the end, knowing that He would somehow bring an even greater good out of the evil that resulted, having a plan of salvation already in place.

 

[Neogaia777]

Adam had a choice, and sufficient knowledge to make the right choice. Because if Adam didn't have a choice, if everything was predetermined and Adam was nothing more than a pawn, then God is directly responsible for all evil, for every atrocious act ever committed by man. IOW, when God commanded man not to eat of the forbidden fruit, He didn't want man to eat of it.

But, being omniscient, He also knew that Adam would eat of it and valued man's freedom enough to allow that to happen, knowing the beginning from the end, knowing that He would somehow bring an even greater good out of the evil that resulted, having a plan of salvation already in place.

The last part yeah... But didn't God have and know about that plan for salvation that He had in place, from before making Adam and Eve, and The Garden, ect...? Yes or No...?

How He makes good come out of bad for us, the bad being only a temporary necessary evil for a short time, does full knowledge of it, "full knowledge of it" mean it's not what he intended, or not...? Yes or No...? And because He made it all that way anyway, seeing the very very good end of it, at or near the end of it... anyway, because he made it all anyway, having "full knowledge of it all", does that mean he caused or is the cause or source of it all (as you say, "directly")...?

Or does it just maybe mean that we don't really have real choice like He has yet... And were just way to predictable right now, especially to and all-knowing God, why do you think he tells us stuff in advanced, He can simply say to you "Hey, I knew, way, sometimes way, way ahead of time, I knew, and I know all the time, I knew the entire time, and I just wanted to you all to know that" (or something like that)...? And why would He be trying to do that do you think...?

Anyway, Because He (God) weighed the consequences compared to the rewards of this temporary evil in the light of eternity, and made a decision, based on weighing those out... I glad He chose what he did, otherwise none of us would even be here to talk about it or Him or anything at all cause we all wouldn't even exist, none of us...

I'm glad God is wise and patient and kind and merciful and loving and generous and liberal and kind and patient, waiting on fruit probably...

God Bless!