The question cessationists must answer.

YeshuaFan · Nov 17, 2018

RDKirk said:
However, Epaphroditus did become sick and Paul had to send him home to Philippi. Epaphroditus wasn't meant to be an evangelist--he had a different role to fill.

And as we can clearly see in Paul's letter to the Galatians, while he was with them he had suffered an eye ailment even at the same time that they were experiencing miracles.

We have to understand that the Lord does everything for His purposes, not ours. The Lord does nothing miraculous to satisfy our own lusts.

God healed me miraculously 30 years ago. That doesn't mean I haven't had any illnesses since then. I don't need another miracle to understand God's power--I'll only need another miracle when it's necessary for something the Lord intends me to accomplish.

God can choose to perform a miracle or healing whenever he wants to, but that is for His glory and purposes, and even if he says no, as he did to healing paul, still is God and worthy of all praise!

YeshuaFan · Nov 17, 2018

NBB said:
The Holy spirit is a person, and Jesus is a person, So the Holy spirit is not Jesus... or i don't know what exactly did you try to say.

About being filled with the Holy spirit, you can live all your life without being filled like the bible says Christians already believers didn't even know about the Holy spirit.

Being filled by the Holy Spirit has NOTHING to do with casting out demons or healings or miracles, but everything to do with fruit and power to live for Jesus and testify for him!

YeshuaFan · Nov 17, 2018

2tim_215 said:
I had a student once who told me that he and his family attended a Benny Hinn conference and he was going around "slaying people in the spirit" who were in the crowd. According to this person, when Benny went over to his dad and tried to "slay" him (he kept touching his father who wouldn't fall) he'd push him harder but no luck. Benny (as so many) is a false teacher who sometimes can appear to heal people but many times can't. Miracles do happen and when they do, it's God doing them and He chooses who to heal and who not to, based on reasons only he knows.

The easiest way to know none of this in the Wof is of God is who is being glorified and lifted up? its not Jesus, but the teacher/leader, but the Holy Spirit magnifies Christ!

YeshuaFan · Nov 17, 2018

W2L said:
This little girl went to be healed and was asked to sit down instead. To this day shes still not been healed. This is why i don't trust those who boast in gifts.

Winder what they told her If you just had more faith?

YeshuaFan · Nov 17, 2018

LoveofTruth said:
I have been doing such work for about 30 years. Its a long story. But I'm not hear to speak of myself. But of the true ministry and God's order among the saints and body ministry. All the work of the Spirit is needed today as much as ever.

But the gifts given to men in the church are all equally weighty. If a man claims to have a pastor gift or evangelist gift, we must take all gifts as seriously as another. No man can make himself into any gift or calling.

You do not claim to have any new revelations from God, do you? To be gifted to heal or do miracles?

YeshuaFan · Nov 17, 2018

LoveofTruth said:
There were many apostles after the resurrection and they are still needed for the church today until we all come in the unity of the faith unto the perfect man. Which we haven't all come to yet.

Interestingly those today who claim to be pastors, will find justification for their apparent gift in Ephesians 4:11 and only there as far as New testament goes. The word "pastors" is found only once in this usage in the entire New testament. So if you want to eliminate two of the gifts in the five mentioned there then you would also have to include pastors evangelist and teachers.

Ephesians 4:11 is so clear to the unbiased reader. These gifts of apostle and prophet are different in their ministration and calling than the OT prophets and apostles as scripture reveals. Although there can be an overlap in function for the apostles before the resurrection who extend into the new covenant. But only those apostles who had been with Jesus from Johns baptism till his resurrection could have a certain call and be witnesses of those things. The apostles after the resurrection like Paul, Barnabas, Silvanus, Timotheus and perhaps Titus, were in a different ministration. We read they are for the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry for the edifying of the body of Christ.

And nowhere does it say these five fold gifts ceased.

Nowhere in all the New Testament do we read that the gifts of the Spirit for the church have ceased either. It is pure conjecture and made up stuff from many who many deny the power and have a form only.Scripture warns of this.

As far as Jesus sending the original 12 out to raise the dead and heal etc. That was their specific call. However even today if God gives the direction to do such things they can be done in the Lord

I have seen others healed, demons cast out on many occassions, wonderous things and power in the gatherings many times.

The prophets and Apostles were only for a specific time and purpose for the Church, in order to confirm the person and work of Jesus as messiah, and to lay the foundation for the church in theology. that was already done, so no more need for them since then!

LoveofTruth · Nov 17, 2018

YeshuaFan said:
Paul described what the true Gospel was to us, and casting out demons, healing, and doing signs and wonders were not mentioned by Him in his description!

But Paul also said,

"1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. 2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. 3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. 4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: 5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God."(1 Corinthians 2:1-5 KJV)

and we read

"15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."(Mark 16:15-18 KJV)

and heres a interesting verse that may apply to many today....

1 Corinthians 4:19

But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord will, and will know, not the speech of them which are puffed up, but the power"

and we are warned in the last days

2 Timothy 3:5

Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away."

The word "power" there is "dunamis". The same word used for the Holy Spirits outpouring power in Acts 1

"8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."

that power will reach and still be in effect unto the uttermost parts of the earth. This power of the Holy Spirit is still needed today as much as ever.

YeshuaFan · Nov 17, 2018

FIRESTORM314 said:
The Doctrines of Demons would in my opinion try and stop our Faith growing and thus limiting what we could do.

The doctrines of demons are those that have Jesus death making him a sinner needing to be reborn again, and to have God being commanded around by us if we just obey the law of faith!

YeshuaFan · Nov 17, 2018

LoveofTruth said:
But Paul also said,

"1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. 2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. 3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. 4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: 5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God."(1 Corinthians 2:1-5 KJV)

and we read

"15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."(Mark 16:15-18 KJV)

and heres a interesting verse that may apply to many today....

1 Corinthians 4:19

But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord will, and will know, not the speech of them which are puffed up, but the power"

and we are warned in the last days

2 Timothy 3:5

Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away."

The word "power" there is "dunamis". The same word used for the Holy Spirits outpouring power in Acts 1

"8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."

that power will reach and still be in effect unto the uttermost parts of the earth. This power of the Holy Spirit is still needed today as much as ever.

The power to live godly lives in Christ Jesus, to bear forth much fruit, and to be eyewitnesses... How many miracles/healing did john the Baptist do, and he was filled with the holy spirit while in the womb?

LoveofTruth · Nov 17, 2018

YeshuaFan said:
You do not claim to have any new revelations from God, do you? To be gifted to heal or do miracles?

no person can know the Son God unless the Father reveals the Son. This revelation is a daily growing in the knowledge of Jesus Christ.

When the word "new" is used. This word can be understood of Gods mercies are new every day

"It is of the LORD'S mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not. 23 They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness."

and the knowing of Jesus Christ is a new and wonderful revelation as we grow.

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."(2 Cor 5:17 KJV)

Is this newness of life not an unfolding wonder daily in the Lord. Are not Gods ways past finding out? Don't we need to learn daily and grow in this?

But if you mean by "new" something that would contradict what has already been revealed in scripture, then no I do not speak anything that would contradict what the Spirit has already given. If i did, I would need to be corrected and exhorted and warned.

I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

Paul spoke to believers and said

"But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God."

Can any claim to know all their is of God? Can any claim that God does not reveal new and wondrous things to them and confirm them many times in scripture?

We also read of these type of things in scripture

"17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,"(Ephesians 1:17,18 KJV)

NBB · Nov 17, 2018

YeshuaFan said:
Being filled by the Holy Spirit has NOTHING to do with casting out demons or healings or miracles, but everything to do with fruit and power to live for Jesus and testify for him!

It has to do in part, since is he who does those things, myself i never knew of someone that would say 'in the name of Jesus get healed' and a person gets healed, but about casting out demons, the Holy spirit can reveal a spiritual problem and the cause, and we need to solve it, either praying, or casting it out, what would you do if a person manifests themselves because of a bad spirit like in the Bible, like it happens a lot in church, at least where the presence of God is? you would say the demons were cast out when they converted? or try to help, driving the demons out?
Your gospel maybe work in theory, but if that happens then what?? because has happened.... and to me as well sometimes the devil just don't leave, you need to tell him to leave. Or at least pray a lot, but that is not usually the method suggested in the bible, or demons 'are cessationists' too, that they don't behave like in the bible anymore?

And prophecies, like i said some ministers can give you surpisingly amount of details about your life, that they do not possible know otherwise, what about that?

God is supernatural and is fine that with Him supernatural things happen.

I just wish people would not pose such a strong defense denying things that other christians actually experienced.

LoveofTruth · Nov 17, 2018

YeshuaFan said:
The power to live godly lives in Christ Jesus, to bear forth much fruit, and to be eyewitnesses... How many miracles/healing did john the Baptist do, and he was filled with the holy spirit while in the womb?

John was filled with the Holy Ghost from his mothers womb, but not baptized with the Holy Ghost baptism, as he said himself.

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: 12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now:..."(Matthew 3:11-15 KJV)

YeshuaFan said:
You do not claim to have any new revelations from God, do you? To be gifted to heal or do miracles?

God has shown me his order to set for the churches and confirmed it in scripture. And many other things.

NBB · Nov 17, 2018

LoveofTruth said:
John was filled with the Holy Ghost from his mothers womb, but not baptized with the Holy Ghost baptism, as he said himself.

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: 12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now:..."(Matthew 3:11-15 KJV)

God has shown me his order to set for the churches and confirmed it in scripture. And many other things.

Being filled and baptized is not the same?

When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

What differentiates one thing of the other?

Francis Drake · Nov 17, 2018

YeshuaFan said:
The Church was not given the great commission to cast demons out of Christians, but to witness Jesus and the true Gospel to lost sinners, and to mature and train up those now saved by it!

And this coming from the guy who is always insisting he only follows the bible. LOL.
Well, I've got news for you my friend, here's the great commission.

The Great Commission
…16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In My name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; ……………………

Seems you've been slicing pages you don't like from that bible of yours again.

Francis Drake · Nov 17, 2018

YeshuaFan said:
Any of us can pray to God for healing, but none of us are gifted to have that always happen, as God still decides how to heal, and many times the healing comes from physically death!

Calling physical death a healing is one of the worst and cheapest forms of deception I have ever come across.
Nowhere in the scriptures do we find the Lord using that excuse.

Can you imagine that as a defence in a murder trial? But your honour, I was just healing him when I slit his throat!

Deborah D · Nov 17, 2018

Francis Drake said:
And this coming from the guy who is always insisting he only follows the bible. LOL.
Well, I've got news for you my friend, here's the great commission.

The Great Commission
…16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In My name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; ……………………

Seems you've been slicing pages you don't like from that bible of yours again.

I quoted this verse from Mark earlier in the thread. SM said it was just a prediction and, of course, said it was questionable according to some versions.... HCSB, KJV and AMPC don't show it as being questionable. In truth this is a powerful prophecy, and it's a sure word.

NBB · Nov 17, 2018

YeshuaFan said:
The doctrines of demons are those that have Jesus death making him a sinner needing to be reborn again, and to have God being commanded around by us if we just obey the law of faith!

I think nobody is defending those teachings here...

Alithis · Nov 17, 2018

point is we dont build theology on an exception, i too have been sick near death days after seeing people healed,

but hey..how many did i see healed in many years of NOT praying for the sick based upon wrong theology basedon the exception..?= none.

how many healed since i began praying for the sick ignoring such theology and doing what Jesus said?
very many indeed.
so people can stick to theology which undermines faith which cannot please God.
or
they can have faith step out and obey.

Deborah D · Nov 17, 2018

Francis Drake said:
Calling physical death a healing is one of the worst and cheapest forms of deception I have ever come across.
Nowhere in the scriptures do we find the Lord using that excuse.

Can you imagine that as a defence in a murder trial? But your honour, I was just healing him when I slit his throat!

Yeah, let all the murderers out of prison because they were just healing people!

Alithis · Nov 17, 2018

YeshuaFan said:
The Gospel is the very power of God unto salvation, as that is THE primary use of the message of the Cross, to have lost sinners saved eternally now, and to be able to live for Christ Jesus in this wicked world system! Signs and wonder and healings and miracles are not part of the Gospel, as the Holy spirit still manages to save when the Lord Jesus is lifted up and preached, apart from needing any other stuff!
Jesus promised to hos redeemed His peace and His presence, and to be with them always, thru both good times and bad, not the easy street WoF teaches we are to have now!

i agree the gospel is the power of God unto salvation
i have no idea why you brought up wof.
we are not wof
now go and study the world salvation...
it is all encompassing.
im guessing from your reply that your talking a nice theory .
so many here do

The question cessationists must answer.

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