The question cessationists must answer.

YeshuaFan said:

Except that paul seemed to have not had that gift to heal Timothy, or Himself any longer, and that was historically what happened!

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oh grief really ..
1 timothy was not ill and did not DIE - he had a stomach ailment . think that through .they did not have water treatment as we do 1800+ years ago ... the ailment would repeat if the water he must drink daily was contaminated .hence - a little wine helps with that .
2 Paul was NOT SICK . its utter rubbish unbelievers make up .
people who build theology based upon misinterpreted one off exception just aid the spirit of unbelief .
we laid hands on a girl named jenifer recently ..she was deaf from a baby and commanded healing . she now hears as her deaf ears were opened . because the lord JESUS i serve is ALIVE today . and such theological unbelief based theories are a load of rubbish.

swordsman1 said:

I was wondering when the 'blaspheming the Spirit' card would be played. It's the oft used scare tactic to try and ward off cessationists.

Defending the Holy Spirit against the counterfeiting of His gifts, and other bogus practices done in His name, is not blaspheming Him. What is dishonoring to the Holy Spirit is attributing to Him things which are clearly not of him.

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it is surprising it took so long .. . according to scripture the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is the act of attributing the power of God to the devil .. saying that signs and wonders that do happen are "of the devil" - this is what the pharisee did just before the lord Jesus explained about blasphemy . blasphemy itself is to hold things holy unto god and god in disdain and have a profain attitude towards the things of God .
No one here can judge your heart at that level . after all the pharasees who refused to believe even though the signs and wonders gave full weight to who Jesus claimed to be .it wasn't that they could not believe as SOME of them later converted and followed him .but they Chose not to . preferring thier power over the people and recognition of position . they proved this latter by crucifying the lord JESUS

and that is where we must be careful - for PAUL did the same .. when the lord jesus appeared to Paul he saidto him ..paul why do you persecute ME ?

now in logical thought the lord Jesus had died ,risen and departed . he was not on earth . so at what time did paul persecute the lord JESUS ? think that through very soberly

YeshuaFan said:

And that the most Charismatic church that Paul wrote to, Corinthian one, was one of the most messed up ones!

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Just not as messed up, concerning being “spiritual brethren”, when compared to whole “idiotes/ungifted” denominations iMO. But as far as the Charismatic churches being ‘perfect’ we are admittedly not there.

Alithis said:

and what would "you " preach as .."the real Gospel " ..

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Same one paul preached to us in Romans and Galatians, that we are sinners who cannot do anything to save ourselves, that God became a man as jesus, died for our sins in our stead upon the Cross, taking and bearing our due Wrath, being raised/resurrected and ascended back to heaven, and that we receive Him by Grace alone thru faith alone in order to be saved!

Alithis said:

it is surprising it took so long .. . according to scripture the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is the act of attributing the power of God to the devil .. saying that signs and wonders that do happen are "of the devil" - this is what the pharisee did just before the lord Jesus explained about blasphemy . blasphemy itself is to hold things holy unto god and god in disdain and have a profain attitude towards the things of God .
No one here can judge your heart at that level . after all the pharasees who refused to believe even though the signs and wonders gave full weight to who Jesus claimed to be .it wasn't that they could not believe as SOME of them later converted and followed him .but they Chose not to . preferring thier power over the people and recognition of position . they proved this latter by crucifying the lord JESUS

and that is where we must be careful - for PAUL did the same .. when the lord jesus appeared to Paul he saidto him ..paul why do you persecute ME ?

now in logical thought the lord Jesus had died ,risen and departed . he was not on earth . so at what time did paul persecute the lord JESUS ? think that through very soberly

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The so called signs and wonders WoF leaders claim are bogus, and since their theology is not scripture, the Holy Spirit cannot be part of them!

Hillsage said:

Just not as messed up, concerning being “spiritual brethren”, when compared to whole “idiotes/ungifted” denominations iMO. But as far as the Charismatic churches being ‘perfect’ we are admittedly not there.

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I do see a clear difference between old time Pentecostal churches such as the AOG and the Wof /Health and wealth/dominion churches, as the mainline Charismatics are wrong on second act of grace as evidence by tongues, and also on the Soteriology proper, but that is not nearly as bad as the theology in those fringe groups!

i note the greatest error cessationist make is they take the not so good things (and some are very erroneous indeed and need repenting of for sure ) they see in circles like the charismatic circles ..lump it all together and say its not of God . and by implication they are saying its "of the devil ".. this saddens me because it displays no faith or trust in God as the "almighty " it devalues the lord Jesus . it says , well lord JEsus you said ALL authority in heaven and on earh is given to you " .. but the cessationist implies that's not the truth .. they imply the devil has all the power and everything that happens in the realm of the spiritual or miraculous must be his power . such a contradiction to belief in God .
well god i believe in you but i do not believe everything you say or that you are sovereign over al things
oh they may say that in words that they believe he is bit their actions and arguments prove they do not believe that .
its being Double minded . they have not yet made up their minds to believe the lord Jesus no mater what confronts them . Gods word over and above .

now this does not mean they are completely incorrect in regard to SOME charismatic goings on . the charismatic churched are not perfect or right in everything .they teach a lot of new age garbage and mysticism -mostly in books .and im not going to deny that . in every topic we must be HONEST ..defend the truth not the froth and bubble . but thier strongest objection seems to be in regard to tongues . based upon ONE out of context verse about the inspired ADVISE (not a law ) which paul gives the corinthians in regard to speaking out loud in tongues while in a gathering of believers . (while at the same time he expressly says "do not forbid to speak in tongues ) . and fully ignores everything ELSE paul said about it . being thst there are differing KINDS of tongues for differing purposes for the holy Spirit is the Spirit of God with whom NOTHING is impossible .

sadly the entire premise of cessationism is based upon nothing clear or precise in scripture instead it is a teaching as ambiguous as teaching people to ray to mary because gods to busy to hear ,implying he is not omnipotent or omnipresent .a contradiction . the cessationist do the same thing . saying they beleive .. BUT.. oh that "but "-it is nothing but pure unbeleif .

YeshuaFan said:

The so called signs and wonders WoF leaders claim are bogus, and since their theology is not scripture, the Holy Spirit cannot be part of them!

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that "could be so" but they are a small portion of Christendom . your crossing topics of cessationism and error in WOF -they are not the same topic .

YeshuaFan said:

Same one paul preached to us in Romans and Galatians, that we are sinners who cannot do anything to save ourselves, that God became a man as jesus, died for our sins in our stead upon the Cross, taking and bearing our due Wrath, being raised/resurrected and ascended back to heaven, and that we receive Him by Grace alone thru faith alone in order to be saved!

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well then thats exactly what WOF preach .. and it is only HALF the Gospel message and a lie by omitting half the truth

you said they preach a false gospel yet you preach EXACTLY what they do . amazing ...
pity people did not stick to All the the apostles preached instead of cutting it in half .

Alithis said:

well then thats exactly what WOF preach .. and it is only HALF the Gospel message and a lie by omitting half the truth

you said they preach a false gospel yet you preach EXACTLY what they do . amazing ...
pity people did not stick to All the the apostles preached instead of cutting it in half .

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Agreed, Alithis! They are in error and pointing a finger at other Christians in error!

Alithis said:

lol its fine .. its just a terminology . the misunderstanding comes when the word anointing is used because the western charismatic pretty much took a word and attributed a completely different meaning to it .

kind of like the word gay once had a wide use meaning of cheerful free mood .. now has a meaning of one who engages in homosexuality - Same word but a different meaning has been wrongly attributed to it .

the anointing is not on you some times and gone other times .
what your experiencing is the holy spirit Inside you stirring you up to a certain thing he wants to happen .. so that why i referred to the old king James word the "quickening " .. the pulse speeds up the senses increase the Adrenalin flows the hands quiver .. this is the FLESH reacting to the stirring of the holy spirit ..so the body speeds up . hence the term quickening - gets quicker . often this happens the first time some one speaks in tongues or prophecies out loud Or had a declarative word in tongues real loud over the noise of a crowd .
so yes i agree we DO feel things .. but they are resultant not causative .

we can start a thread on it if you like and i can explain is as best i can . i just want you to kow it is NOT to say what you experience is not valid.. not at all though some of the things and the experiences that resulted may shock you a bit . because a wrong teaching just a little wrong at its origin wil lead one further not nearer to the truth

-picture a straight line and another line beside it that starts at an offset angle so so slight that at first it cant be seen to be offset ..but the longer that line is followed its not aligned with the truth line and only grows in distant from the truth as it is followed . the wrong understanding of the word anointing is just such a wide spread scenario

OR-- i can short cut and give you a link to a guy who explains it all in about 40 minutes in one youtube clip lol .. let me know i'l link it
but if you do watch it PLEASE come back and discuss id love to see your response

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'Anointing' is not the only word that charismatics and pentecostals have redefined. 'Tongues', 'prophecy', and 'apostle' do not match the biblical definitions either.

From the apostolic age right up to the time the Pentecostal movement started at the beginning of the 20th century, the word 'tongues' was universally understood to be miraculously speaking foreign human languages. So often has the word tongues been misused since then, that it is common for non-tongue speakers to now assume that biblical tongues is speaking non-human unintelligible utterances. Even in the secular world 'tongues' in the English vernacular is now understood to mean that strange babble that Christians speak.

Alithis said:

when i first was inundated with the Holy Spirit my body shook from head to toe and my heels vibrated so intensely i moved sideways across the floor

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Where in scripture does the Holy Spirit ever cause that kind of behavior?

swordsman1 said:

'Anointing' is not the only word that charismatics and pentecostals have redefined. 'Tongues', 'prophecy', and 'apostle' do not match the biblical definitions either.

From the apostolic age right up to the time the Pentecostal movement started at the beginning of the 20th century, the word 'tongues' was universally understood to be miraculously speaking foreign human languages. So often has the word tongues been misused since then, that it is common for non-tongue speakers to assume now that biblical tongues is speaking non-human unintelligible utterances. Even in the secular world 'tongues' in the English vernacular is now understood to mean that strange babble that Christians speak.

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see.. all that is based upon your (and the people who taught you ) OPINION . tongues is only one of the attributes of the holy Spirit . the lord "WHO CHANGES NOT " did not cease being God .everything you just said is pure opinion based . no fact no scripture .

RDKirk said:

The existence of a counterfeit does not imply the nonexistence of the genuine.

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What charismatics commonly call tongues is a counterfeit. It doesn't match the biblical description.

The same applies to what they commonly call the gift of prophecy, and the gift of healing.

what

swordsman1 said:

Where in scripture does the Holy Spirit ever cause that kind of behavior?

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do you mean.. ( and thanks for taking the sentance out of context to my entire post and misrepresenting it .. well done . very honest of you lol.. not at all )

do you mean as in "rushing winds .. fire appearing on the hear which referred too cleaving between spiriut and flesh . or perhaps you meant the entire place being shaken ... of but the inhabitants arounf them did not come rushing to that shaking .. so it wasn't necessarily the physical building that shook .

hmm or maybe you mean falling over backwards at the word of God ..like when the soldiers came to arrest Jesus .. Or maybe you mean how the earth shook and swallowed the hard hearted rebels at the time of moses ..same God you see - he changes not . i testified that many years ago that happened to me .. i ALSO testified that often it does happen when a person FIRST has the holy Spirit come into them . but need not continue to happen . i also testified that many things happening that are based upon seeking only such outer manifestations can lead to great error..
so please .. do be honest and consider the whole post ..

LoveofTruth said:

And Timotheous and Silvanus and possibly Titus.

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If Timothy was an apostle Paul wouldn't have started a couple of his epistles with "Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus...and Timothy our brother”. It would have been "Paul and Timothy, apostles of Christ Jesus".

You cant even discern between true and false teachers. You cant explain why a Spirit lead church can be so divided.

swordsman1 said:

If Timothy was an apostle Paul wouldn't have started a couple of his epistles with "Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus...and Timothy our brother”. It would have been "Paul and Timothy, apostles of Christ Jesus".

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1 Thessalonians 1 - 1. Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians... 1 Thessalonians 2 - 6. Nor of men sought we [Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus,] glory, neither of you, nor yet of others, when we [Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus,] might have been burdensome, as the apostles of Christ.”[Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus,]

scripture is clear on this. The gifts have not ceased and there are still apostles, prophets, evangelist , pastors and teachers needed for the body of Christ.These gifts were given AFTER the resurrection of Christ. (Eph 4:8-11 KJV)

LoveofTruth said:

Here is another one about Titus and other brethren who were apostles

2 Corinthians 8 - 23. Whether any do inquire of Titus, he is my partner and fellowhelper concerning you: or our brethren be inquired of, they are the messengers of the churches, and the glory of Christ.”

The word “messengers” in Greek is “apostolos” apostle, sent one etc

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The Greek word 'apostolos' has 2 meanings. By far the most common usage in the NT is an eye-witness, miracle working, divinely appointed apostle of Christ. The other usage, which is only used a couple of times (this being one of them), means a messenger. Titus was a messenger of the churches. In virtually every English translation the word in that verse is correctly translated messenger.

LoveofTruth said:

1 Thessalonians 1 - 1. Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians... 1 Thessalonians 2 - 6. Nor of men sought we [Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus,] glory, neither of you, nor yet of others, when we [Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus,] might have been burdensome, as the apostles of Christ.”[Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus,]

scripture is clear on this. The gifts have not ceased and there are still apostles, prophets, evangelist , pastors and teachers needed for the body of Christ.These gifts were given AFTER the resurrection of Christ. (Eph 4:8-11 KJV)

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If we have apostles, prophets and teachers, why is the church so divided? Can it be because they are teaching flawed doctrine? Would a true teacher do that?