Is baptism a requirement for salvation?

sdowney717 · Oct 1, 2018

Neostarwcc said:
That is another interpretation of John 3:5 that I've heard. But I think the physical birth is more closer to what Jesus meant by being born of water because of what Nicodemus asked in John 3:4 and how Jesus responded in John 3:6. But you're right that the holy spirit also baptizes with water.

The key is what being 'born of' means.
We who are born of God are saved. And being immersed in water does not accomplish being born of God, we are shown to be already born of God when we believe in our heart and confess with our mouth the Lord Jesus, as Romans 10 says about our having been saved. A water baptism is showing a change of condition of the heart, all who are water baptized are already been saved priorly by the Spirit of God making them born of God, and therefore accepted in the Beloved.

For any deniers of this, where here is mentioned baptizing with water?

5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, “The man who does those things shall live by them.” 6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7 or, “ ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach):

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

sdowney717 · Oct 1, 2018

The essence of the gospel is in 1 Corinthians 15, and it by this that you stand in the faith or fall flat on your face if you don't, (believed in VAIN, like adding on your own doctrine to the scriptures).

Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures.
That Christ rose from the dead on the third day according to the scriptures
That this is the grace of God at work within you for your good to save you.
And that you believed that in truth and is true.
.
1 Corinthians 15 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Risen Christ, Faith’s Reality
15 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received:

that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. 7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. 8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.

9 For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. 11 Therefore, whether it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

AlexDTX · Oct 1, 2018

Neostarwcc said:
There's been much discussion about this issue in my saved by works thread and I figured I'd make a topic about it. It's my impression that no, we are not saved by baptism and the verses that seem to imply that Baptism is a requirement for salvation need to be looked at closer. Like for example in John 3:5. Jesus says:

“Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit."

So just what is "being born of water?" To answer that we have to look at what Nicodemus says in John 3:4 "How can someone be born when they are old? Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!". also look at Jesus's reply in John 3:6 " Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.". Jesus was talking about our physical and spiritual births. Nobody can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born into the world and then are born again spiritually. That's what Jesus was saying in John 3:5 not that we have to be baptized to enter the kingdom of God.

Second, we have to look at Mark 16:16 it says

"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

Notice it doesn't say those who believe but are not baptized are condemned. To say that this verse is proof that baptism is required for salvation is to add words that are not present in the holy text. If Baptism were a requirement for salvation Mark would have said "But those who do not believe or who believe but are not baptized will be condemned". All the first part of the verse is saying is that those who happen to be baptized will be saved. Also see: Does Mark 16:16 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation?. Got questions explains it a lot better than I ever could.

These are just two of the most popular verses in the Bible that people try to use to "prove" that baptism is a requirement for salvation. But, there isn't a single verse in the Bible that "proves" that baptism is a requirement for salvation because, it isn't.

There also are examples in the bible of people being saved without being baptized like the thief on the cross. If baptism were required for salvation why would Jesus say "today you will be with me in paradise!"

So, what's the point in getting baptized then if it doesn't save us? Because, Baptism is a part of faith. Simple as that.

We are saved by grace through faith, not by works lest any man boast. Faith without works is dead. Water baptism is an act of faith. In other words, what we do is what we believe. Water baptism is an action of faith showing we are serious about our faith. We are not saved by water baptism, but it is public evidence of our genuine faith.

Acts2:38 · Oct 1, 2018

ItIsFinished! said:
Not going to waste my time dismantling this highly flawed logic .
Jesus Christ saves, not Jesus Christ saves and baptism.

That is the reply most give when they cannot "dismantle" sound doctrine from scripture. It is sad, while at the same time funny, that people do this. Why even reply then?

Look.

It was a command by Christ Himself. How do you make a disciple of Christ?

Matthew 28:19-20 teaching, baptizing, teaching to observe ALL things.

Acts 2:38 = The ONLY way you can obtain remission of sins and receive the Holy Spirit

Galatians 3:27 = ONLY when you are baptized are you IN CHRIST

Ephesians 1:3 = Those IN CHRIST receive spiritual blessings.

John 3:3 and 5 = How do you enter the Kingdom?!

It is not just mere water that saves, but the act of obedience to Christ, the gospel, God's word, that you are saved. Obedience to His command also requires baptism it just so happens to state in scripture. And you still probably have no clue what I meant about "believing" being a verb in Mark 16:16 do you?

Christ did tell me about the blind leading the blind. The scripture is hitting you straight in the face and still you deny.

dgiharris · Oct 1, 2018

I have to admit, it is threads like these in which I feel my faith slipping and dissolving away...

Why is there so much disagreement between those of us of Christian faith?

Ask a hundred physicists a basic physics question and you will get one answer.
Ask a hundred Christians a basic faith question and you get dozens of different answers.

WHen I look into my heart and my relationship with God, I can't see a baptism being a "requirement".

Obviously, being baptized is awesome, but for some situations it will be impossible. I'm former military, I've heard of situations where a soldier was shot in battle, is dying, and asks to receive Christ as his personal lord and savior. Now, assuming he is genuine and sincere, are you telling me that because he's not baptized this person who is going to die can't be saved?

Acts2:38 · Oct 1, 2018

David Cabrera said:
Why, if I might ask?

Because it only happened twice in scripture. Acts 2 and Acts 10. Each time it did happen, it gave them the power of miraculous gifts when it fell upon them, Acts 10, Cornelius STILL was baptized. So was Paul, Simon the sorcerer, the Jailer, the Corinthians, the people in Jerusalem in Acts 2, the Samaritans, Lydia, so on and so forth.

Acts2:38 · Oct 1, 2018

dgiharris said:
I have to admit, it is threads like these in which I feel my faith slipping and dissolving away...

Why is there so much disagreement between those of us of Christian faith?

Ask a hundred physicists a basic physics question and you will get one answer.
Ask a hundred Christians a basic faith question and you get dozens of different answers.

The answer is simple...

1 Timothy 4:1-3
2 Timothy 4:3-4

Monk Brendan · Oct 1, 2018

Neostarwcc said:
There's been much discussion about this issue in my saved by works thread and I figured I'd make a topic about it. It's my impression that no, we are not saved by baptism and the verses that seem to imply that Baptism is a requirement for salvation need to be looked at closer. Like for example in John 3:5. Jesus says:

“Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit."

So just what is "being born of water?" To answer that we have to look at what Nicodemus says in John 3:4 "How can someone be born when they are old? Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!". also look at Jesus's reply in John 3:6 " Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.". Jesus was talking about our physical and spiritual births. Nobody can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born into the world and then are born again spiritually. That's what Jesus was saying in John 3:5 not that we have to be baptized to enter the kingdom of God.

Second, we have to look at Mark 16:16 it says

"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

Notice it doesn't say those who believe but are not baptized are condemned. To say that this verse is proof that baptism is required for salvation is to add words that are not present in the holy text. If Baptism were a requirement for salvation Mark would have said "But those who do not believe or who believe but are not baptized will be condemned". All the first part of the verse is saying is that those who happen to be baptized will be saved. Also see: Does Mark 16:16 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation?. Got questions explains it a lot better than I ever could.

These are just two of the most popular verses in the Bible that people try to use to "prove" that baptism is a requirement for salvation. But, there isn't a single verse in the Bible that "proves" that baptism is a requirement for salvation because, it isn't.

There also are examples in the bible of people being saved without being baptized like the thief on the cross. If baptism were required for salvation why would Jesus say "today you will be with me in paradise!"

So, what's the point in getting baptized then if it doesn't save us? Because, Baptism is a part of faith. Simple as that.

Baptism is a requirement for salvation only if you believe Jesus.

JoeP222w · Oct 1, 2018

Alithis said:
1- are you wiling to stand before god teaching people they need not get baptized ? im confident your not willing to do so .

As a requirement for salvation, yes, because baptism is not a requirement for salvation. Read my words carefully. Baptism follows after salvation in obedience to Christ. If you claim it a requirement for salvation, I don't see where you have shown that from scripture. And if you claim that baptism is a requirement for salvation, how is that not works based righteousness? (Ephesians 2:8-10) Are you saying that someone who has a physical impairment that would not allow them to be baptized is not saved and never could be saved?

Alithis said:
2 Did you get baptized - because if you did and you did so with NO belief that God does anything by it as a result of obedience then you have never been baptized in faith in Christ .-

Yes, I have been baptized. But again, not so that I would be saved. I was baptized when I was already a believer in Jesus Christ.

And I never claimed that baptism is meaningless or unimportant or God does not use it. But baptism is not a requirement for salvation.

Alithis said:
Why did the lord Jesus not teach his own hand picked disciples to stop baptizing people because it was not required ... ?

You have misunderstood my position. So this question is moot.

Alithis said:
have you ever known God anywhere to declare that people should do a pointless meaning less task that is not required to bring about a result ?

Again, you have misunderstood my position. I never claimed that God requires us to do meaningless things. So this question is moot as well.

Alithis said:
its like telling people how to bake bread and half way through the recipe go take a bath .. - i for sure KNOW the lord does not tell any one to do an UN-required task ever .
IN fact Not only does the lord Jesus NOT tell them to stop , he oversees the increase of water baptism.- WHY would he do that for a meaningless Unrequired action ?-
(because it is neither meaningless NOR unrequired . it is for living that we die in Christ and rise again in him that we may live a life unto God . if your planning to die the moment you believe in Christ then go right ahead , but if your planning to live in him and he in you and go do what he has for you to do -then best start with water baptism -its required .)

yes its one of those sentences few read because its been overshadowed by the insertion of verse and chapter breaks . But at the beginning of john ch 4 it states .." When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,) ..... oh YES there it is , not only did the lord JESUS the living word and manifestation of the most High God manifested in flesh not stop them baptizing , he encouraged them to INCREASE in doing it . because he knew the power of it - and so does the adversary - and it is why it has been one of the three most attacked and undermined sections of the gospel ( repentance and the ceasing of sinful deeds - water baptism - baptism of the Holy Spirit )

Since this is a continuation of misrepresentation of my position, not going to answer this segment.

Alithis said:
i encourage you to think again and change your mind . unless your willing and confident to stand before the Lord Jesus himself and explain to him why you taught people that water baptism is unrequired And in opposition to His command ... Then i would not DARE to even remotely insinuate such a thing .

Re-emphasis of your misunderstanding of my position on your part. No response needed here since this is not my position.

Natsumi Lam · Oct 1, 2018

Monk Brendan said:
Baptism is a requirement for salvation only if you believe Jesus.

Which baptism? Water or Spirit

friend of · Oct 1, 2018

Water Baptism is not what saves. Faith in the gospel is what saves. If someone truly believes in the gospel but has never been immersed or sprinkled with literal water, that person is still reconciled to Christ. John 3:5 is speaking about Spiritual water.

Light of the East · Oct 1, 2018

friend of said:
Water Baptism is not what saves. Faith in the gospel is what saves. If someone truly believes in the gospel but has never been immersed or sprinkled with literal water, that person is still reconciled to Christ. John 3:5 is speaking about Spiritual water.

If that is true, why didn't the first disciples teach that it was a spiritual baptism? They taught that one must be baptized in water by immersion.

Light of the East · Oct 1, 2018

AlexDTX said:
We are saved by grace through faith, not by works lest any man boast. Faith without works is dead. Water baptism is an act of faith. In other words, what we do is what we believe. Water baptism is an action of faith showing we are serious about our faith. We are not saved by water baptism, but it is public evidence of our genuine faith.

And yet, Polycarp, whom you quote at the bottom of your post, would disagree with you, as would all the Early Fathers, who taught that baptism is a requirement for salvation.

Stringfellow_Hawke · Oct 1, 2018

redleghunter said:
Acts 10 disagrees.

I was waiting on that one!

JacksBratt · Oct 1, 2018

friend of said:
Water Baptism is not what saves. Faith in the gospel is what saves. If someone truly believes in the gospel but has never been immersed or sprinkled with literal water, that person is still reconciled to Christ. John 3:5 is speaking about Spiritual water.

Faith saves.... the baptism is the public profession of this faith.
The wedding marries.... the wedding ring is a public display of that marriage.

The ring is not necessary for the marriage to be valid...
Baptism is not necessary for the salvation to be valid..

If I was living alone in the woods and decided to accept Christ as my savior... and lived for another 25 years, on my own.. reading the bible praying, even listening to a church ministry every Sunday... and died right there in my cabin... am I saved? Or.... because I didn't "do" something.... die without salvation?

There is nothing required of me for my salvation because there is nothing on earth that I can do to contribute to it.

I am saved because of my faith in the work of Christ.

ItIsFinished! · Oct 1, 2018

Acts2:38 said:
That is the reply most give when they cannot "dismantle" sound doctrine from scripture. It is sad, while at the same time funny, that people do this. Why even reply then?

Look.

It was a command by Christ Himself. How do you make a disciple of Christ?

Matthew 28:19-20 teaching, baptizing, teaching to observe ALL things.

Acts 2:38 = The ONLY way you can obtain remission of sins and receive the Holy Spirit

Galatians 3:27 = ONLY when you are baptized are you IN CHRIST

Ephesians 1:3 = Those IN CHRIST receive spiritual blessings.

John 3:3 and 5 = How do you enter the Kingdom?!

It is not just mere water that saves, but the act of obedience to Christ, the gospel, God's word, that you are saved. Obedience to His command also requires baptism it just so happens to state in scripture. And you still probably have no clue what I meant about "believing" being a verb in Mark 16:16 do you?

Christ did tell me about the blind leading the blind. The scripture is hitting you straight in the face and still you deny.

No, what is sad is individuals like you who do not comprehend God's Word appropriately and take verses out of context. It isn't funny , it is rather sad.
Salvation comes from 100% faith in the redemptive work of Jesus Christ on the Cross.
I personally am baptized, but not for salvation .
I received Christ as Saviour then I was baptized.

AlexDTX · Oct 1, 2018

Light of the East said:
And yet, Polycarp, whom you quote at the bottom of your post, would disagree with you, as would all the Early Fathers, who taught that baptism is a requirement for salvation.

Just the early church fathers believed something does not make them right. There were many Beatles songs that I heard in my youth that took 50 years later for me to understand. The assumption that the closer to time that one lived to Jesus the more you know is a false assumption. Peter lived with Jesus for 3 years yet it took Paul to help him understand the Gospel was for Gentiles as well as Jews.

Post Script
Salvation is the new birth. Anything else is not salvation.

Wordkeeper · Oct 1, 2018

Salvation is receiving the promise made to Abraham about being a blessing to the world.

The promise involves receiving the Holy Spirit and the more you receive, the more of a blessing you become.

Faith, which comes from hearing and agreeing with the Gospel places you in Christ, AKA being cleansed by the word Christ spoke to you. Baptism lines you up for more hearing, also known as foot washing, drinking even more from the Rock. Laying on of hands ensures you are also empowered to wash feet, lead others into Rest, like Joshua.

Perfection is arrived when you are without blemish and wrinkles through the washing of the word. You are going to be the greatest blessing you can ever be. Of course the rewards are commensurate. Paul talks of winning the race, of experiencing a better resurrection, the ex anastasis...

From being saved perfectly.

Even the thief was a blessing to the world, in his own way. But think about what Stephen's ministry led to?

The raising from the dead of Saul/Paul?

SaintCody777 · Oct 1, 2018

Baptism is a sacrament and the holy spirit entered Jesus recognizing Him as Gods son when Jesus got baptized.
One good question from the so called Bible believing Christians and Protestants, who think that Baptism is either not that important or necessary, that I find reasonable is 'what if a person trusts Jesus with his life and gets born again, in spirit, but on his way to Baptism, he gets killed unexpectedly, like in a car crash or a violent act?"
I'm sure that God knows his heart and he has His mercy on that person who was spiritually regenerate but unexpectedly died on his way to Baptism.

aiki · Oct 1, 2018

Alithis said:
the problem when one takes this verse from paul and presents it as a whole ..is simply it is not a whole ..
Paul states that he was not sent to baptise
he was sent to preach the Gospel
the good news of Jesus .

and what is the goods news of Jesus ? that he became flesh .died on the cross , rose again and we must repent BE BAPTIZED and receive the Holy Spirit .
So he is simply saying water baptism is a part of the whole .. he was not sent to only water baptize but to present the WHOLE MESSAGE of the Gospel .so stop squabbling about who baptized you .. it is irrelevant to the whole Gospel message . -that is the context he is speaking into and the point he is making .

"Presents it as a whole"? A whole what, exactly?

Have you asked yourself why, if baptism is salvific, Paul only baptized Crispus and Gaius? Why would he refrain from baptizing other Corinthian believers if baptism saves a person? Was he willing to let those to whom he had preached the Gospel and who had believed it remain under the jeopardy of hell until someone else baptized them? That seems like a very unloving thing to do. Why, if it was in any believer's power to bring someone out from under the jeopardy of eternal damnation by baptizing them, wouldn't they do so? How can it be loving to neglect to rescue a person from hell? But Paul didn't. He only baptized a couple of the Corinthian believers and was glad he hadn't baptized any others! Yikes! What was the matter with Paul?! Nothing, nothing at all. Paul just didn't think baptism was salvific. His cavalier attitude toward baptism makes this pretty clear, I think.

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