‘How hard can that be, saying that Nazis are bad?’ Obama’s anti-Trump speech, annotated

Ringo84 said:

I'm fairly confident in saying that Nazis/white supremacists/whatever they call themselves don't share KC's views.
Ringo

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More of that ideological blindness that's going around. The people who like to attack peaceful conservatives with smoke bombs, bottles of urine, clubs and other weapons are called Antifa.

TerranceL said:

More of that ideological blindness that's going around. The people who like to attack peaceful conservatives with smoke bombs, bottles of urine, clubs and other weapons are called Antifa.

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Let's have a look at these """""peaceful conservatives""""":

2nd man convicted in beating of DeAndre Harris during Aug. 12 rally

Three Men Sentenced to Prison for Violence at Charlottesville Rally

Updated: Jury Finds Ramos Guilty of Malicious Wounding

James Fields Jr. Could Face Death Penalty from Charges Related to Aug. 12 Rally

https://static01.nyt.com/images/2017/08/14/us/14FARRIGHT-1/14jpTRUMP-jumbo.jpg?quality=90&auto=webp

I know I know....conveniently, these aren't really conservatives, although they didn't associate with antifa. They exist in some Schrodinger's Cat state.
Ringo

TerranceL said:

You're complaining about a few hours? If he'd made a statement right after the event you'd be telling us how he was grandstanding and using the woman's death to make himself look better.

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Yep...I'm complaining about a few hours. A real president would have issued a statement right away, and he definitely wouldn't have issued his repugnant "good people on both sides" statement.

I hadn't defending any of these people.

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No...you're just moving the goalposts so that you can turn antifa into a bogeyman when they weren't the ones who perpetrated the violence.

Also your argument, "walks like a duck etc" is the same one used by people who call democrats socialist, communist and Stalinists and such. Calling people what they are isn't "splitting hairs, it's honesty.

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There's a difference between lumping an entire party into a single pile and looking at pictures from the Charlottesville rally, noting the swastikas, the "Heil Hitler" salutes, the "Jews will not replace us" chants and their little tiki torches and calling a spade a spade.
Ringo

TerranceL said:

Did you forget calling Antifa a boogieman who hadn't even been invented in 2017?

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I was talking about using them as an excuse to distract from the president pandering to white supremacist groups, not their existence in general.

It is weird that people can't see through this transparent attempt to deflect. Or maybe they have other reasons not to?

TerranceL said:

Antifa.

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And they share my politics in what ways? Come on, this is all very interesting - I can't wait for you to tell me what I believe. Don't leave us in suspense!

TerranceL said:

More of that ideological blindness that's going around. The people who like to attack peaceful conservatives with smoke bombs, bottles of urine, clubs and other weapons are called Antifa.

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And cars. Oh wait, that's what the "peaceful conservatives" use when people don't agree with them, can't mention that.

Ringo84 said:

Yep...I'm complaining about a few hours. A real president would have issued a statement right away, and he definitely wouldn't have issued his repugnant "good people on both sides" statement.

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What's so repugnant about it? When you have two large groups, one of them includes, among many other people, actual neo-nazis with swastikas, and the other one includes, among many other people, actual totalitarian communists with hammer and sickles, then saying that there are some good people on both sides is basically the mildest and most diplomatic way to describe the situation.

TerranceL said:

That quote that you and your fellow travelers like to drag out when it comes to Trump.

"You have some good people on both sides." Both sides, in this case, being the white nationalist and Antifa.

Oddly enough it's the outrage over claiming that one had "good people" that gets your goat and not the other.

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Well, within the context of the event being discussed when all of that talk was going on...acting as if it was strictly a "White Nationalist vs. Antifa" endeavor is a misrepresentation of the event.

It was White Nationalists vs. a variety of people who showed up to oppose them. Antifa was only a small subset of that.

So, the "there are some good people on both sides" was an poor statement...or if we want to give DJT the benefit of the doubt, a misinformed one.

There were some good people that showed up to oppose the white nationalists...there were no good white nationalists. Not everyone who showed up to oppose the Nazi's were Antifa/BLM. They were only a subset of the opposition that showed up.

Perhaps people wouldn't be so suspicious of him if he hadn't spent the previous 4 months giving the impression that he was walking on eggshells as to not have to say anything bad about a certain detestable faction within the right-wing.

Do I think he likes the racists? No. DJT is many things, but I don't think he's a sincere racist. However, I think he knows how to market to an audience, and he knows that there were racists among this supporters and he didn't want to risk alienating them, so he danced around any questioning that was aimed at getting him to admit they were bad. IE: "I'm not familiar with David Duke so I can't say one way or the other", "there were good people on both sides", etc...

I think this desire to make it a "Nazi vs. Antifa" thing is another defense mechanism among some in the right so that when they get painted in a corner and can't dodge the fact that they have some real undesirables among their ranks, that they can prop up this myth of equivalency as a last resort and say "well, the left is just as bad".

*Starlight* said:

What's so repugnant about it? When you have two large groups, one of them includes, among many other people, actual neo-nazis with swastikas, and the other one includes, among many other people, actual totalitarian communists with hammer and sickles, then saying that there are some good people on both sides is basically the mildest and most diplomatic way to describe the situation.

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You're right in that there were many other people in the group that happened to include the commies...

However, who were the "many other people" on the side of the Nazi's during that confrontation?

As I touched on in a previous post, I know people like to either claim A) everyone on the left side there was Antifa/BLM, or B) the Nazi/White Nationalists were just a small subset of the people on the right...both in efforts to prop up this myth of equivalency.

It seems to be a tactic by those on the far right to want this myth of equivalency so that they can claim "the left is just as bad" when confronted with the reality that they've got a racism problem in their collective house at the moment, and rather than deal with it, repudiate the support of the racists and risk losing their votes, they've opted to go with the strategy of trying to find a reason why the left is just as bad.



So, I'll give you the opportunity to provide an explanation here...

The stated purpose by the organizers (Jason Kessler and Richard Spencer - two well known white supremacists) of the Unite the Right rally was: Unifying the American white nationalist movement, promotion of white supremacy, and protesting the removal of confederate symbolism.

Given the purpose of said demonstration and who the organizers were, who are these supposed non-racists who you claimed showed up to support those guys? Are there any non-racists you know of who are on-board with that mission statement? Given who the organizers are, and their mission statement, would you refer to anyone who showed up to lend support as a "good person" in any sense of the word?

*Starlight* said:

What's so repugnant about it? When you have two large groups, one of them includes, among many other people, actual neo-nazis with swastikas, and the other one includes, among many other people, actual totalitarian communists with hammer and sickles, then saying that there are some good people on both sides is basically the mildest and most diplomatic way to describe the situation.

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The fact that these supposedly "good people" on the pro-Nazi side of the equation were the ones who perpetrated the violence against Deandre Harris and Heather Heyer, are one of the ones who fired a gun into a crowd, and all of which are the ones who were convicted post-August 12th for violence.

There are no "good people" on a side where people wear swastikas, chant "Jews will not replace us", lynch a black man in a parking garage, and run over counterprotestors with their car. I'm not sure what's so difficult to understand about that. The fact that this is a debate at all is an indication of the rot infesting our society.
Ringo

waves said:

‘How hard can that be, saying that Nazis are bad?’ Obama’s anti-Trump speech, annotated

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Your video isn't completely true. The rights does want to control the way we live. So they do want more government. So the right can have the government, have more control in our bedrooms and the way we live. The left want people to have a chance to have food, insurance and a better education. While the right doesn't.

Ringo84 said:

Let's have a look at these """""peaceful conservatives""""":

2nd man convicted in beating of DeAndre Harris during Aug. 12 rally

Three Men Sentenced to Prison for Violence at Charlottesville Rally

Updated: Jury Finds Ramos Guilty of Malicious Wounding

James Fields Jr. Could Face Death Penalty from Charges Related to Aug. 12 Rally

https://static01.nyt.com/images/2017/08/14/us/14FARRIGHT-1/14jpTRUMP-jumbo.jpg?quality=90&auto=webp

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So now a few cases of violence over the past year or so taints all of the conservatives?

Huh.

I'll have to keep that little nugget in mind when discussing things with you.

2017 Berkeley protests - Wikipedia
Dozens of people assaulted for the crime of not even being conservative but being thought of as being conservative.

Liberal America has a political violence problem

Black-clad antifa members attack peaceful right-wing demonstrators in Berkeley

This List Of Attacks Against Conservatives Is Mind Blowing

Conservative students at UC Berkeley face everything from insults to threats of violence

Most of these stories aren't even from this year.

When I've brought these up in the past I've gotten the "but they support trump!" as if that is somehow an excuse for violence. And now people are surprised that attacking non-violent people leads to escalation.

I know I know....conveniently, these aren't really conservatives, although they didn't associate with antifa.

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What makes you think they aren't really conservatives?

They exist in some Schrodinger's Cat state.
Ringo

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What in the world are you talking about Ringo? Is this the early stages of dementia showing it's face?

Ringo84 said:

Yep...I'm complaining about a few hours. A real president would have issued a statement right away, and he definitely wouldn't have issued his repugnant "good people on both sides" statement.

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It must have really angered you then that it took Obama almost 12 hours to say something about Benghazi huh? Or the days it took Obama to make face the nation after the San Bernadino attack.

No...you're just moving the goalposts so that you can turn antifa into a bogeyman when they weren't the ones who perpetrated the violence.

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Ah, more of this "bogeyman" stupidity. It's not a bogeyman, it's not a moving of the goalposts. This violence didn't pop up out of thin air. It's not even unheard of, it's happened before.

TerranceL said:

So now a few cases of violence over the past year or so taints all of the conservatives?

Huh.

I'll have to keep that little nugget in mind when discussing things with you.

2017 Berkeley protests - Wikipedia
Dozens of people assaulted for the crime of not even being conservative but being thought of as being conservative.

Liberal America has a political violence problem

Black-clad antifa members attack peaceful right-wing demonstrators in Berkeley

This List Of Attacks Against Conservatives Is Mind Blowing

Conservative students at UC Berkeley face everything from insults to threats of violence

Most of these stories aren't even from this year.

When I've brought these up in the past I've gotten the "but they support trump!" as if that is somehow an excuse for violence. And now people are surprised that attacking non-violent people leads to escalation.

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Hmmm...it's definitely the sign of a winning strategy when your defense is to bleat "b-b-b-but they do it too!" Because as we all know, stealing a hat is definitely the same as what happened to Heather Heyer.

What makes you think they aren't really conservatives?

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I was anticipating your next line of defense: to disavow them as "not real conservatives".

What in the world are you talking about Ringo? Is this the early stages of dementia showing it's face?

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Do you not know about Schrodinger's Cat?
Schrödinger's cat - Wikipedia
Ringo

TerranceL said:

Ah, more of this "bogeyman" stupidity. It's not a bogeyman, it's not a moving of the goalposts. This violence didn't pop up out of thin air. It's not even unheard of, it's happened before.

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You're right: Nazi violence has happened before. My memory is a bit cloudy, but I'm pretty sure there was a war fought over that kind of ideology.
Ringo

TerranceL said:

So now a few cases of violence over the past year or so taints all of the conservatives?

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You're the one who labeled neoNazis, KKK and other white supremacist activists "peaceful conservatives" in post 61. You really can't blame others for going with that idea and seeing where it leads.

KCfromNC said:

And cars. Oh wait, that's what the "peaceful conservatives" use when people don't agree with them, can't mention that.

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And a gun too, don't forget the gun.

The greatest thing is that he was not convicted of shooting at a black counter protester; he was convicted of discharging a firearm within 1000 feet of a school.

Aryeh Jay said:

And a gun too, don't forget the gun.

The greatest thing is that he was not convicted of shooting at a black counter protester; he was convicted of discharging a firearm within 1000 feet of a school.

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I'm sure it was "peaceful" attempted murder, what with the being from one of the good people on both sides and all.

ThatRobGuy said:

It seems to be a tactic by those on the far right to want this myth of equivalency so that they can claim "the left is just as bad" when confronted with the reality that they've got a racism problem in their collective house at the moment, and rather than deal with it, repudiate the support of the racists and risk losing their votes, they've opted to go with the strategy of trying to find a reason why the left is just as bad.

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I'm not American so I can't say for sure, but in mainstream American media I've recently seen significantly more racism from left wingers than from right wingers. It might have been different in the past, but things seem to change. If I made a comment saying that "people shouldn't be judged by skin color" on any large, popular American website, there would be a lot more self-described left wingers than self-described right wingers disagreeing with me.

ThatRobGuy said:

So, I'll give you the opportunity to provide an explanation here...

The stated purpose by the organizers (Jason Kessler and Richard Spencer - two well known white supremacists) of the Unite the Right rally was: Unifying the American white nationalist movement, promotion of white supremacy, and protesting the removal of confederate symbolism.

Given the purpose of said demonstration and who the organizers were, who are these supposed non-racists who you claimed showed up to support those guys? Are there any non-racists you know of who are on-board with that mission statement? Given who the organizers are, and their mission statement, would you refer to anyone who showed up to lend support as a "good person" in any sense of the word?

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Was that an actual quote? I tried googling for some official Unite the Right mission statement and couldn't find anything. I thought it was a more broad march, for all kinds of right-wing people.

*Starlight* said:

Was that an actual quote? I tried googling for some official Unite the Right mission statement and couldn't find anything. I thought it was a more broad march, for all kinds of right-wing people.

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Unite the Right rally - Wikipedia

The organizers' stated goals included unifying the American white nationalist movement[11] and to oppose removing a statue of Robert E. Lee from Charlottesville's Emancipation Park.[19][23]

"Saturday’s “Unite the Right” rally was meant to unify various white nationalist factions against unidentified enemies, Damigo said"