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Then don’t tell people they can never lose their salvation.
I never once said that... ? I'm not an OSAS guy....
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Then don’t tell people they can never lose their salvation.
discipler7 said:For their involuntary/unintentional and inherited/inborn Adam's Original Sin, God will be sending all fallen Man to hell when they die = they need to believe in Jesus Christ to save them from hell = believers will die, be resurrected/raptured, ... and inherit the kingdom of heaven.(ROMANS.5:12)
MATTHEW.5:27-30 = Adultery in the HeartUntrue. ...
Judgement comes based on the sins we actually did.
I've already prayed for that and I suggest you rethink on that interpretation. If you call me a retard at least type in coherent English.
I would do anything for genuine repentance and hating my sin. Repentance is only possible if the Spirit will grant me it and so far I haven't been able to.
I ASKED if you were retarded because one you self diagnosed
and two your own diagnosis does not fit the parameters laid out by the bible verses YOU yourself quoted. meaning once you were showed the verses your quoted as your perceived problem were dismissed, you attacked the differential diagnosis and held on to the one that does not follow your situation
Either 1 you have a learning disability, which retarded is/was (to just a few years ago) the correct technical term to describe what is now call mentally disabled. I say that because your recollection or contextual recall of the passage you quote does not accurately describe what is on page. So either you do not understand what is on page or... you do, and are pressing your own diagnosis despite what the writer of hebrews said. If you are then it is not an intellectual decision you are making, because the evidence demands you change your diagnosis, that is unless you have a fault in reasoning. which again begs the question of a learning disability.
Because clearly the hebrew writer says once a man who has known the holy Spirit has strayed, there is nothing anyone else can offer to bring him back... Meaning there is no third party way of talking someone back home... Now in your op you said you found yourself in sin, you returned on your own, you repented but feel like something died, and you have no sense of the Holy Spirit.
You came home on your own, which means no third party is responsible for bring you here, which means heb 6 DOES NOT APPLY TO YOU! You are already past what Hebrews 6 discusses at length.
However The passages I provided to you describe this very thing, not to mention other people telling you the prodigal son returned on his own, and was welcomed.
Yet you presist in making what is said in hebrew 6 the new unforgivable sin... which again begs the question why... it is a mental incapacity problem/you do not have the wherewithal to understand the situation, or you are being driven or lead by emotion. if it is a feeling that is driving you then know it is the devil lying to you. even though you repented your heart is still steeped in sin.. which brings us back to what Paul said in romans 7 and 8
No shame in a learning disability so long as you do not let it define you. I was branded retarded all my life, I learned it is just a word mean people use to try and keep other people down. Well later I found out I wasn't retarded just learned differently. once I figured out how I learned I taught myself, which is why spelling and grammar is still pretty bad. Still yet challenging you or your mental well being tells me something about you as well. it tells me if you are going through the motions or if you are looking for an excuse/way out of christianity. If you are looking for a way out I'd rather it be me/some name on a message board than you put this guilt trip on a parent or loved one.
I worked with alot of atheists/new christian converts to atheist for a very long time and they usally start like you are. they self diagnosis some paradoxical situation where they see no way out of, decide if God is there he would XYZ and ultimately God does not XYZ to save them and then the convert looks for a way out. now a christian calling you retarded is gold. If you want out this is your chance. just know you chose deep down this out, and also know there is always a way back. Some of us are meant to spend time with the pigs. I spent almost the first 1/2 of my life. because I needed to know without a doubt what the other side was about. some of us are destined to do this no matter what and yes most will not return. Just know you can even if this go round the holy spirit was not there with the warm and fuzzies. (which is child stuff anyway) when we grow in the spirit we must put away childish things/our relationship must grow beyond 'feeling' and full fill our requirement for faith. Faith meaning we do by God even if we have no way of knowing he was there. Romans 7 is the beginning to the understanding of this spiritual maturity, if you are looking for direction.
I fell into a long season of willful sins and when I realized what I was doing I tried to repent of it.
I was able to physically repent of my sins in the manner of simply not doing them anymore. I was able to quit my addictions and etc. but my soul still has a void in the inside.
I think I even remember a time when I sensed the Holy Spirit left me.
I keep praying and praying and interceding but God does not answer. I search for him diligently but he will not be found by me.
When I quit all of my sins it just left a void in my heart. Since I have nothing to replace my sin since God left me, I can't enjoy my victory over sin.
I think I have done Hebrews 6 where I cannot ever repent truly from the inside out again.
There is a sin unto death and you should listen to the Bible warning about it.
Almost everyone else I see in the same predicament as me(truly born again and fell away) are in the same state as me feeling spiritually dead.
I think I am a true born again believer as described in Hebrews 6 and I truly fell away. I don't even feel fear anymore. Just consuming apathy. The second death is here and now.
You reading is out of context.I can assure you I don't have a learning disability. Trust me I am looking for an excuse to be IN Christianity, not out.
The problem isn't feelings. The problem is the absence of His presence. He is just simply not there on either emotional or intellectual basis. Sorry but your interpretation of Hebrews 6 is just not correct. It says it's impossible to RENEW them to repentance. What does renew mean? It means regeneration. Then it goes on to say WHY it's impossible to RENEW them and it's because they have re-crucified Christ to themselves again. Why is this unforgivable? Because Christ would have to come down a 2nd time and die again which is out of order.
This doesn't make sense. If you were sinning willfully, then you knew what you were doing. What do you mean, then, that you "realized what I was doing"? You knew all along what you were doing.
Why did you repent of your sins? If it wasn't in obedience to the First and Great Commandment (Matthew 22:36-38), you might as well have not bothered. (See 1 Corinthians 13:1-3) When you live God's way because you love Him, your soul won't have any "void."
The Holy Spirit doesn't leave those he has spiritually regenerated and made new creatures in Christ. Now, you may have broken your fellowship with God which will make Him feel at a distance from you, but your relationship to God is unbreakable.
Hebrews 13:5
5 Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you."
Romans 8:38-39
38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come,
39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
John 10:27-29
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.
God is omnipresent; He is everywhere always; there is no place you can go where He is not (Psalms 139:7-10). In a sense, then, you are never truly lost. God always know exactly where you are.
What sort of an answer are you looking for from God? Do you not trust the promise of His word that if you confess your sins He is faithful and just to forgive your sins and cleanse you from all unrighteousness? (1 John 1:9)
??? Sorry, this doesn't make a lot of sense. If you were truly born-again, God has not left you. And if you quit your sin because you love God and want therefore to obey Him, why wouldn't doing so bring joy and peace to your heart instead of just a void? It should. Getting right with the God we love always has this effect. Let me ask, then: Do you love God?
Hebrews 6:4-6 isn't speaking of a genuinely born-again person. It is describing what Jesus called a "tare" - a person who shares in the life of the Church, who knows the Gospel and gives intellectual assent to it, who may even partner with the Spirit in its work in and through the Church, but who is not actually born again. Is this you? It would explain why you went off into a life of willful sin.
All sin produces death. Read Romans 6:23. But we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous. He makes intercession for us before God's throne and his blood shed at Calvary cleanses us from all sin. Whatever our sin, we need only follow the commands of 1 John 1:9 and Matthew 22:37 to be restored to full fellowship with God.
Yeah, I think it is that you have yet to come into a real, loving relationship with God through Christ. All that you have written in your OP indicates a "tare," not one who is "wheat."
Well, no one can stop you from telling yourself lies. If you are determined to believe them, so be it. But lies they are, nonetheless.
You reading is out of context.
You are adding first person singular to a passage that is speaking about someone else. the passages says If Frank believes and is baptised/the whole 9 yards has been blessed with the spirit ect, and he leaves.. There is nothing Bill can do to bring Him back. that is what 4 and 5 are saying... why? verse 6 Pride is what he is describing, it would be like shaming God/themselves all over again.
This is the SAME SHAME THE PRODIGAL SON underwent when he said to himself that maybe he could go back and be a slave to his father as the slaves ate and where treated better than what he was living!
So how did the Father react in that story? did He treat the lost son as a slave? But the lost son humbled himself before his father and wanting returned as a slave.
What you do not seem to understand is the balance between the prodigal son and the message of heb 6.
That is no third person could have gone to the son and convinced him to return, even if the son eating pig slop. It would kill him in the same way the hebrew writer explains..the son could not serve his father as a slave, if he were once a son, his pride would not allow him to return... However if the son was humbled enough on his own by the living conditions and pig slop making a change in his own heart, it does not say the son would not be welcomed home. in fact that is what happened. The son was FULLY Restored.
Now apart from that, what I said according to romans 7 you are not fully returned. If you want to fully return read the passage in romans and learn to accept and manage your sin... if not then at least you have direction.
HEBREWS.6: = 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.Sorry but your interpretation of Hebrews 6 is just not correct. It says it's impossible to RENEW them to repentance. What does renew mean? It means regeneration.
You're acting like I don't want to love the Lord. I do. I pray everyday for Him to give me a heart of flesh again. To help me love Him and others. Nothing is happening. I do agree that I am a tare but I don't agree with your eternal security interpretation of it.
Can a disciple not be converted ? Yes .. Luke 22:32 ..When was Peter converted ? It is my belief that when Peter had denied Christ three times and the Lord looked at him with love , it broke peter's heart ..it broke his pride , it broke him so that Christ was able to live in him . ( The gift of the holy ghost came later after the resurrection . ) Like you , I was born again , was very zealous ..very evangelical ..I WAS born again ..no question ..but eventually I fell away ..slowly , slowly until there was no fear of God ..I was dead spiritually ...I went on with life ..initially as a hypocrite and then as a non practicing believer ...this went on for 20 plus years ..but in the Lord's time , he came and found me ..I was not looking for Him but he can and found me and THAT is when I really knew the Lord ....He is more patient than we can ever know ...I was born again but did not KNOW HIM ... His long suffering ..His patience ..His wisdom ...I do not have words my BROTHER but His timing was perfect ....I will tell you this though ..there is a cost to following him ..my repentance cost me everything ..family , church , friends ,etc ..but love ..real love does that ..I think I also learned WHY I fell away ...spiritual pride ..but maybe that was just me ..one thing I would caution ..be careful of politics ...Jesus is Lord ..we do not get a vote in His sovereignty . He does everything according to His will and His will is perfect ..His timing is perfect ...You will see and you will know Him and Love Him in ways that you never knew nor thought were possible . I look forward to seeing you on that day ..I am glad you are lost for now you can be found ...My concern is for "the saved" .6 months or so. It was so easy too. Effortless.
I know where you're coming from. Trying to figure out if I was a false convert. But let me tell you something, I came from an OSAS church and it allowed me to get sloppy. If OSAS is false then it's from the pit of hell. I was a true convert and let me tell you something a true convert can fall away. HOWEVER I believe that happens during the first few month or years and if you continue to resist sin and persevere, God will make you persevere to the end but you must show your commitment first. I didn't show mine and did not remain in God's love.
Ahh, no. The fact that the son was a brother tells you he was a member of the family apart of the body he was as the son who remain always was.. Saved. Look at the end where the boy who stayed got angery said I've been with you this whole time and you never threw me a party. The father said it is because everything I have is already yours but your brother was dead and now made alive again. Meaning if the son stayed he would have been like the first son alive this whole time. but the boy went from being apart of the family to walking away from the family and then repenting and returning to the family.The problem is the prodigal son is not talking about a born-again believer wandering off. It's talking about the unregenerate sinner wandering away from the truth.
No clearly Jesus speaks of us as belonging to God or being sons or satan. we don't belong to God and then elect satan.. no Satan is the father of this realm and as we are born we are born unto sin and become slaves to sin. When we choose to serve God, we choose to be apart of his family for the first time.Every believer was a prodigal son at one point.
No there are 7x77 prodigals. There is no limited to our sin because we live in this life as slaves to sin. that passage that you refuse to read/comment on explains all of this.There's no double prodigals.
according to Paul and Romans there is.There's no returning to the slop after you've returned to the father.
indeed this is covered in romans 8 it also goes so far as to tell us what happens when we fall back even if we do not want to!Yes you may fall or sin occasionally but there's a new regenerate nature in you that does not want to do this.
are you just making stuff up now? are you quoting the book of mormon? where does the bible say this?If you return to the slop, your new nature dies and there's no restoring that. Unless God somehow decides to change his rules.
Yes, OSAS is a false doctrine as evidenced by your experience and because saving faith can be lost, abandoned, renounced, departed, fall away, etc.I know where you're coming from. Trying to figure out if I was a false convert. But let me tell you something, I came from an OSAS church and it allowed me to get sloppy. If OSAS is false then it's from the pit of hell. I was a true convert and let me tell you something a true convert can fall away. HOWEVER I believe that happens during the first few month or years and if you continue to resist sin and persevere, God will make you persevere to the end but you must show your commitment first. I didn't show mine and did not remain in God's love.
Yes, OSAS is a false doctrine as evidenced by your experience and because saving faith can be lost, abandoned, renounced, departed, fall away, etc.
....... The Parable of the Sower and Parable of the Tare and Wheat at MATTHEW.13 say that some Christian believers will renounce their faith in Jesus/God in the face of religious persecution and tribulation, some will abandon the faith because of the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches and that there are false/devilish Christians/pastors/prophets in the Church(MATTHEW.7:15-23).
The false OSAS doctrine often leads the ignorant Christians to commit sins = suffer the horrible consequences of their sins/evil-deeds/law-breaking.
But as long as they keep the faith in Jesus Christ/God-in-the-flesh, like Job, they will still be saved from hell when they die.(JOHN.3:14-18)
Yes, OSAS is a false doctrine as evidenced by your experience and because saving faith can be lost, abandoned, renounced, departed, fall away, etc.
....... The Parable of the Sower and Parable of the Tare and Wheat at MATTHEW.13 say that some Christian believers will renounce their faith in Jesus/God in the face of religious persecution and tribulation, some will abandon the faith because of the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches and that there are false/devilish Christians/pastors/prophets in the Church(MATTHEW.7:15-23).
The false OSAS doctrine often leads the ignorant Christians to commit sins = suffer the horrible consequences of their sins/evil-deeds/law-breaking. But as long as they keep the faith in Jesus Christ/God-in-the-flesh, like Job, they will still be saved from hell when they die.(JOHN.3:14-18)
Job suffered at the hands of Satan because he ignorantly sinned against God by making a vile offering.(JOB.1:5) He did this because he feared greatly that his sons' sins would cause him to lose everything.(JOB.3:25) But about 400 years later, it was revealed in EXODUS.20:5 that only the fathers' sins would fall on the sons or great-grandsons, and not the other way round. So, Job feared/worried for nothing.
It has been a long time... I'm a sophomore in college now, and I started having horrible wicked thoughts against God around.. I guess late middle-school, early high school. I was a young teen. At first, I was afraid to tell anyone about the thoughts, but eventually I told my sister, my mom, and my pastor and they reassured me. They were so kind and gentle with me instead of condemning me as I thought. I still have bad thoughts, even deliberately, but I just don't feel sorrowful over them anymore. Anyway, it's not so much the thoughts I worry about anymore. I used to doubt God's love for me, thinking that my sins were too gross. But now it's my love for Him that I doubt. Even knowing that God has done so much for me, do I love Him? No one, of course, can love Him perfectly, but I just don't have that zeal, and joy, and passion that I see in the true Christians I know.Similar story to mine. I took God's love for granted, I took my family's love for granted, I took my church's love for granted. What a costly mistake. I feel the same as you. How long have you been like this?
Mainly realizing how empty life is without God.
Don't bother trying to argue. The Bible could literally say, "You can lose your salvation." in those words and they'd try to explain it away. It actually does basically say that in many areas in the Bible.
Thank you for your advice! I don't really understand myself, but I know God does. I keep looking up to Him, because I know there's no other way to have true life.Have you asked God to fill you with His Holy Spirit? Just a thought. I can understand the feelings but there can be many reasons.
One thing that comes to mind is the narcissist songs sung commonly in church. If they aren’t focusing on what God did for us, they’re singing about some intense devotion we all are supposed to have. I can imagine a diet of singing “how much you gave me” or “I only live for you” instead of “God you are full of lovingkindness” and “trust in the Lord and do good” would leave a believer empty. I’m convinced the enemy has invade christian music and made it weak.
It has been a long time... I'm a sophomore in college now, and I started having horrible wicked thoughts against God around.. I guess late middle-school, early high school. I was a young teen. At first, I was afraid to tell anyone about the thoughts, but eventually I told my sister, my mom, and my pastor and they reassured me. They were so kind and gentle with me instead of condemning me as I thought. I still have bad thoughts, even deliberately, but I just don't feel sorrowful over them anymore. Anyway, it's not so much the thoughts I worry about anymore. I used to doubt God's love for me, thinking that my sins were too gross. But now it's my love for Him that I doubt. Even knowing that God has done so much for me, do I love Him? No one, of course, can love Him perfectly, but I just don't have that zeal, and joy, and passion that I see in the true Christians I know.
I read the Bible but the words don't speak to me like they used to with the Holy Spirit's promptings. I miss that.