"If you could lose your salvation, you would."

JIMINZ said:

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All I'm hearing from you are unfounded assumptions on what you call truth.
It,s all hog wash............END!

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OK. But notice I said, "The answer may just be too wonderful for you to hear."

You have to know that for many it is, so why take offense? I did not say it is for you.

Lose? What POWER man has to just toss away something only a GoD can give. WHERE do these thoughts come from? Well does GOD say question once saved always saved? Or does God say you can lose your salvation by sin, or sinning to much? No.. ALL this comes from Satan.. a lie.

So you never have seen Jesus nor the powers and things to come or the like. Sorry just what do you or we truly understand about "born from above/born again"? Sorry which one of us is a GOD? And some man/woman born on this planet is going to say how a gift that came from a God can be lost or never lost based on NOTHING more then seeing flesh?

is when you believe Jesus came in the flesh.. that God so loved this world. You believe the words of Jesus..WHAT gets "born again"...God is what? A Spirit yes? What is BORN AGAIN? You think you can UNBORN so to speak that? If you think in this world if you think fleshly.. then born again is nothing. Its a word that your actions now determine the outcome. I believe when Adam and Eve fell.. something died... and now Christ came. Once you believe in Him. That which was died.. is born again. All things becomes new. And what HE started.. Might he finish? No.. WILL

Buzz_B said:

You are not far off from it in thinking that but the truth is that as much or more Scripture speaks of Salvation using the future tense than it does as a sense of it in the present and that is because what we are given for now is only the taste of it. You seem reasonable enough to admit that.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

1 Peter 2:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.

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22 Matthew 7
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Did these people do too little works to make it to heaven or were they missing something else ?

Cat Loaf You said:

22 Matthew 7
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Did these people do too little works to make it to heaven or were they missing something else ?

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That describes OSAS believers who think they are doing good works which prove they belong to Christ and yet they keep dabbling in sin.

They believe they are in Christ:Matthew 7:22a "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name?"

Now include the next two verses which tell you that:

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Buzz_B said:

You are not far off from it in thinking that but the truth is that as much or more Scripture speaks of Salvation using the future tense than it does as a sense of it in the present and that is because what we are given for now is only the taste of it. You seem reasonable enough to admit that.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

1 Peter 2:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.

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Newbies please take note.....evasion of “sins of omission” still on-going.....this is an on-going thing,Buzz.....not intended as a slur on you or your beliefs,as wrong as they are.....lol.....just kidding on that last part.

Blade said:

Lose? What POWER man has to just toss away something only a GoD can give. WHERE do these thoughts come from? Well does GOD say question once saved always saved? Or does God say you can lose your salvation by sin, or sinning to much? No.. ALL this comes from Satan.. a lie.

So you never have seen Jesus nor the powers and things to come or the like. Sorry just what do you or we truly understand about "born from above/born again"? Sorry which one of us is a GOD? And some man/woman born on this planet is going to say how a gift that came from a God can be lost or never lost based on NOTHING more then seeing flesh?

is when you believe Jesus came in the flesh.. that God so loved this world. You believe the words of Jesus..WHAT gets "born again"...God is what? A Spirit yes? What is BORN AGAIN? You think you can UNBORN so to speak that? If you think in this world if you think fleshly.. then born again is nothing. Its a word that your actions now determine the outcome. I believe when Adam and Eve fell.. something died... and now Christ came. Once you believe in Him. That which was died.. is born again. All things becomes new. And what HE started.. Might he finish? No.. WILL

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Born again does not happen instantly by anointing as you seem to think. Paul shows us it is a process of being formed as in a womb long before that actual birth, That is why the Jews who had the oracles of God as Romans 3:2-3 says had an advantage over the Gentiles. Paul shows us they were already being shaped and formed by that verbal knowledge being their possession while in the fleshly Jerusalem's womb. That is why Paul referred to himself as a late birth:

1 Corinthians 15:7-8 "After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time."

Galatians 4:1-2 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father."

Galatians 4:23-25 "But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children."

Galatians 4:27 "For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband."

That Jerusalem below did the travailing in birth as children were being shaped to God in her womb and then taken from her and given to the woman above.

That is our example of what it means to be born again.

I hope you are able to understand this as it is your answer.

Blood Bought 1953 said:

Newbies please take note.....evasion of “sins of omission” still on-going.....this is an on-going thing,Buzz.....not intended as a slur on you or your beliefs,as wrong as they are.....lol.....just kidding on that last part.

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That's OK, just take your time and go through whatever you need to go through. Get it all out of your system and then review all of our posts when you get the time.

May God bless your desire for his truth.

razzelflabben said:

As I said before the only real difference in the two beliefs is whether or not we can return the gift of salvation once accepting it. I say we can and if we do we will on judgment day be subject to the same judgment as the non believer because we rejected/ returned/denied/whatever word you want to put on it, the truth of Christ.

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If you believe, as you say, that Christ began a good work in the person you refer to - and that person does not keep the faith - then God did not complete the work he began in that person.

This isn't a difficult concept to understand (silly lol's not withstanding).

razzelflabben said:

I do believe that believers have passed from death to life and will not face condemnation...just like I said I believe but you claim I don't believe what I say I believe which is like the most ridiculous thing someone can claim about another person and still expect to be taken seriously.

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A person who passes from death to life will not come again into condemnation.

If that person give back his salvation he will come into condemnation according to you. Therefore what the Lord said about those who believe is not true according to you.

Again - this isn't a difficult concept to understand.

razzelflabben said:

what I am telling you is that not everyone who comes to Christ as a believer remains a believer therefore there is no contradiction in saying that we can "fall away" and that God will lfinish the work He has begun in all believers

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If the person was a true believer in whom God authored faith (and those are the only kind of "Christian" we are talking about when we discuss OSAS (note the "saved" part) - and that believer does not remain a believer and comes into condemnation because of it - then God did not complete the good work He began in that person and that person will, as a result of that failure, come into condemnation in opposition to what the Lord told us.

This isn't a difficult concept to understand.

When you first say that you agree with certain things and then, when your doctrines are examined closely and they are found to be in contradiction of what you said you agree with -- it is not necessary that I provide "quotes" which say directly that you don't agree with those first things.

Your own doctrines have confirmed that you do not believe them.

If you will not acknowledge these things we will leave off our discussion at this point.

Blood Bought 1953 said:

evasion of “sins of omission” still on-going

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Hi there, Ned said to tell you HI.

As per your previous posts, what are you driving at in regard to
"Sins of Omission" is it?

Jas. 4:17
Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

It appears to be self explanatory, what is the point your trying to make about these Sins of Omission?

I must have missed it?

We have a Catholic friend I think he's counting pretty heavy on purgatory a place I do not believe in.

He claims we can lose our salvation one day and possibly gain it back again only to lose it next week again then gain it back again all I have to say to him is you had better be very careful what day you die on.

This man is a very intense Bible scholar but yet I ask myself occasionally is he born again?

M-Bob

Mountainmanbob said:

We have a Catholic friend I think he's counting pretty heavy on purgatory a place I do not believe in.

He claims we can lose our salvation one day and possibly gain it back again only to lose it next week again then gain it back again all I have to say to him is you had better be very careful what day you die on.

This man is a very intense Bible scholar but yet I ask myself occasionally is he born again?

M-Bob

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I understand your whole post could have been rhetorical, but here I am anyway.

My view is, if he is Catholic, then there is the possibility, he was Baptized as an infant.

Jesus said.

Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

I have no doubt he does Believe in Christ for Forgiveness of Sins, but he does not feel, Believe, or Understand the importance of the order in which a person becomes Born Again.

This process of becoming Born Again is not something someone else can be a surrogate for the one becoming Born Again.

It is a New Birth, and as assuredly as no one stood in as a surrogate at his Natural Birth, only the one being Born Again of the Spirit has the ability to do it for himself.

For in order for someone to become Born Again, they must first, Die to the Flesh, this is something which can only be done by the one being Born Again.

JIMINZ said:

.
Hi there, Ned said to tell you HI.

As per your previous posts, what are you driving at in regard to
"Sins of Omission" is it?

Jas. 4:17
Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

It appears to be self explanatory, what is the point your trying to make about these Sins of Omission?

I must have missed it?

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Hey diddly doodley Jiminz......I throw in those “ pesky old sins of omission” to show the self- righteous that they may “think” they are meeting Gods standard but they ain’t.Nobody yet has addressed it. More comfortable to stay in their nice and lovely Fools Paradise.

JIMINZ said:

For in order for someone to become Born Again, they must first, Die to the Flesh, this is something which can only be done by the one being Born Again.

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For one to be born again they must be given a new heart from the Holy Spirit. Jesus described this when Nicodemus asked of him what must one do to be born again? Jesus said it's like the wind it blows where it blows and you have no control over it.
M-Bob

Cat Loaf You said:

22 Matthew 7
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Did these people do too little works to make it to heaven or were they missing something else ?

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Jesus said ... "I NEVER KNEW YOU", despite their professed works ...

Mountainmanbob said:

For one to be born again they must be given a new heart from the Holy Spirit. Jesus described this when Nicodemus asked of him what must one do to be born again? Jesus said it's like the wind it blows where it blows and you have no control over it.
M-Bob

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How true

Mountainmanbob said:

For one to be born again they must be given a new heart from the Holy Spirit. Jesus described this when Nicodemus asked of him what must one do to be born again? Jesus said it's like the wind it blows where it blows and you have no control over it.
M-Bob

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Do a full New Testament pondering of the words, "heart" and "hearts", and ask yourself as you ponder it what part is being shown as up to you and what part does God actually do.

Just as an example, you will see things like when Jesus even questioned whether his disciples yet had their hearts hardened against understanding, showing Jesus felt it was their responsibility to prepare their hearts to understand which is also what John the Baptist was preaching that they should prepare the way of the Lord. John meant it was up to them to prepare the way in their hearts.

You will find where if you care enough to do that search and pondering.

When you get done with that in the NT then do the same in the OT for even a fuller understanding.

listed said:

I have no problem with the pleasing God part. My statement was about pleasing others. What generally goes on in most churches is the enforcement of unwritten and unquestioned practices of law if not the law. Here what is happening is some are trying to enforce the law the Christian has no obligation to. Yes murder, adultery, lying etc are unquestionably wrong (sin). I don't think anyone here is promoting those things. I know I'm not promoting sin. It's a back unguarded door approach to enforce the law. I've seen the statement here "there's no such thing as obedience by incidence." You can't prove obedience to something by incidence. Paul said even the gentiles who have not the law prove what God has imprinted on the soul recognizing things as wrong (sin).

Romans 2

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;

Now you said something about restore His wayward creation. May I ask restored to what? I've no problem with it requiring faith.

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It was already part of my statement: restored to justice. IOW, God's plan has never been to suddenly decide to no longer care if man resides in a state of justice or righteousness, living according to the internal natural law that he created man to have to begin with. Sin is an anomaly, out of sync with the rest of creation. God didn't create man to sin. We need to nail that fact down first of all.

Now God doesn't ask us, with the New Covenant, to present ourselves to Him spotless and sinless in order to be just, in order to be saved, as if we could accomplish that on our own. Rather God now tells us that He, alone, justifies man. The first right order of things for man is to simply be in communion with God, ‘apart from Whom we can do nothing’ (John15:5). Adam broke that relationship; he essentially rejected God as his God. All other sin that followed flows from that first breach with our Creator, that first basic denial of His authority. So the first step in restoring man to the heights from which he fell is to reconcile him with God. That's why Jesus came, to restore knowledge of the true God and win reconciliation with Him, with Himself, by dying the death that sin should earn for us. Now we rise to life with Him, but to a new life. Sins are forgiven, we’re new creations, and we’re to ‘go, and sin no more’.

So while the Law can justify no one, we’re nevertheless judged by the Law as per Rom 2. This is because the Law is right on as the standard-holy and spiritual and good as Scripture tells us-showing us the right way for man (this Law, involving the 10 commandments, is referred to by Paul in Rom 7:7-12 and Rom 13:8-10). The problem is that man cannot live up to or fulfill it on His own, apart from God. It can only be fulfilled by the Spirit IOW; it’s only fulfilled as we possess the virtue of love which is realized in us by God to the extent that we’re in communion with Him. This is how He ‘places His Law in our minds and writes it on our hearts’.

And this must be the case-sinners don’t enter heaven. Again, God’s purpose is to justify man by making us just, not solely by attributing or declaring or imputing justice to us, attractive as that may sound if we prefer no obligation whatsoever. But Jesus’s burden is light, not non-existent.

Anyway, we have on this thread differences of opinion regarding how to view man’s obligation to be righteous. Is it non-existent for believers-already a done deal for those who have faith? Or do righteous deeds happen automatically, necessarily, by those who truly believe? Do we have some obligation, some part to play, in striving for and achieving righteousness, perhaps even increasing in it, even if we cannot even begin to walk this road until God places us on it first? Is man’s will involved at all? In my understanding God desires man to be increasingly, personally involved in working out his salvation, in retaining and increasing his righteousness by accepting it, by cooperating with God in achieving it. God draws us into this willingness, but without force-we can always say “no” at any step along the way. The Parable of the Talents addresses this dynamic well.

Anyway, I think this needs to be thoughtfully ironed out. Right living or behavior cannot be separated from righteousness itself as if faith were some sort of stand-in for righteousness rather than the means to it, the necessary means to it. We must still choose good over evil, life over death. Good and evil will always need to be separated, as per Isaiah 5:20

Sorry-a bit wordy

Cat Loaf You said:

22 Matthew 7
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Did these people do too little works to make it to heaven or were they missing something else ?

Click to expand...

Did these people do too little works to make it to heaven or were they missing something else ?

They missed everything.Entirely.Its a story as old as Cain
and Abel.God ain’t interested in our works when it comes to Salvation.Nothing but the Shed Blood of Jesus saves us and fittingly God wants Jesus to get ALL the credit.He is not interested in our pitiful attempts at trying to be worthy by our works.Anybody that made it through those Heavenly Gates made it by faith in what Paul’s Gospel said.Believing in it and not perverting it by adding works is what we will be judged by.A Truth hidden to those that perish.

Buzz_B said:

Do a full New Testament pondering of the words, "heart" and "hearts", and ask yourself as you ponder it what part is being shown as up to you and what part does God actually do.

Just as an example, you will see things like when Jesus even questioned whether his disciples yet had their hearts hardened against understanding, showing Jesus felt it was their responsibility to prepare their hearts to understand which is also what John the Baptist was preaching that they should prepare the way of the Lord. John meant it was up to them to prepare the way in their hearts.

You will find where if you care enough to do that search and pondering.

When you get done with that in the NT then do the same in the OT for even a fuller understanding.

Click to expand...

No one seeks after God.
Explain that?
Not one is good -- explain that?

M-Bob

In my original post I listed some flaws in the non-OSAS way of thinking.

I also did the same for OSAS types.

One thing I said about why there is so much argument is that OSAS have trouble simply stating their position and letting the Holy Spirit do His work after that.

I'm going to take my own advice now and leave it up to the Holy Spirit to convince my opposite number the error of his thinking from now on in this thread.

It's pretty much been said now and I can do no more. It's getting a little silly anyway - what with all the "lol's" every other paragraph.