"If you could lose your salvation, you would."

[discipler7]

It's the simplest and best argument for OSAS (aside from its overwhelming Scriptural evidence) that I can think of.

Not really.
.
1CORINTHIANS.5: =
Immorality Defiles the Church
1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles—that a man has his father's wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

 

[RadiantGrace]

Sobering up is a process of Reformation.

Salvation is a Re-Creation where God ...

* gives us everlasting life
* gives us hearts of flesh
* makes us a new creation
* seals us with the Holy Spirit
* comes to dwell within us
* begins a work in us which He shall accomplish (so Paul believed)

You are posting that like I did not know or believe that. Are you just randomly posting?

 

[RadiantGrace]

The Church has also taught ...

... Limbo for infants

Limbo was never an official teaching of an Christian group. Limbo wasn't for "infants." Limbo was for unbaptized babies and righteous people who never heard the Gospel. You can't enter Heaven and receive supernatural happiness in Christ if you aren't a Christian. Yet, a loving God could not punish people, especially babies, simply for not having access to the Gospel. Therefore, Christians imagined that God must have a place for people to experience complete natural happiness, called limbo.

... Purgatory for Christians that die with "sin" on their soul

Christians have long believed in some process of purging from sin or its affects.

Is any Christian so dishonest with himself, that he believes when he dies, he will walk into Heaven perfect, without changing or considering a thing? You will spend the day sinning, as we all do, however small, get hit by a train, and boom, we are in Heaven, perfect. In that moment between death and perfection, is where I will come to understand myself, my sins, the effects of the sins of others, and the effects of my sin.

The Church has taught many "things" over the course of its 2,000 year history ... and, typically, you can find conflicting teaching from different sides of many issues ...

P.S. I note that your signature champions "completeness" in Christ ...

Your argument for what I have already shown is a logical fallacy is that not all Christians have been in agreement. Gee golly, that's not a logical fallacy at all.

 

[RadiantGrace]

You've missed the condition in His promise:

All that the Father gives me shall come to me; and him that comes to me I will in no wise cast out.

If we come to Jesus He won't cast us out. There is no such promise for those who won't come to Him.

Jesus won't cast us out. That doesn't mean we can't walk away. My parents telling me they'll always have a room for me doesn't mean they are forcing me to stay with them. How do people get to the point of twisting that so badly?

 

[RadiantGrace]

If you are born again you are purchased by God for Jesus Christ by his blood , you do not decide now .
When Jesus says nobody is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand that include yourself even if you tried .

This is the problem with Calvinism, you are reduced to a mindless pawn. You belong to God, or you belong to the devil, but you can't decide anything for yourself.

That's why Calvinists and Crypto-Calvinists use examples of Christians not being able to be taken away from God. So let's make this clear using biblical imagery.

The Lord is my shepherd. He will protect me from the wolves, as long as I follow Him. I can leave the flock. I can choose not to hear His voice. Those lamby lambs get eaten.

How does one say those love God and profess a lack of free will? That's like creating a robot child designed to love you. They don't love you, they can't. What I find baffling is that people profess to be the robot.

 

[LoveofTruth]

And any faith we have is a gift from God! Originated by God, preserved by God, strengthened by God, brought to completion by God! (Hebrews 12:2, Romans 1:17). Man has no room to boast about any of it! (Ephesians 2:8-10).

The faith, is wrapped up in the seed that is given to all men, (sower and the seed parable and the free gift that came upon all men Romans 5) this is the true Light that eightieth every man that cometh into the world (John 1:9). When a mans heart is broken up by the reproof of the Light, or the seed which is the word of God sown in the heart and they come unto him in their heart or cometh to the light as Jesus said, (John 3) and they believe on Him in their heart this is where their faith is laying hold of that eternal life, or the word of God that gives them life. They draw nigh unto God but God was already nigh unto them (Romans 10) by His word sown in the heart.

So their faith comes by hearing and their hearing by the word of God. It is still called their faith and some can be weak in faith or strong in faith. But to be "in the faith" is to be in Christ. Yet we are also a new creation in Christ and so we are not God but distinct in our person, and so we must walk in the faith and in the spirit and we must continue in the grace of God and we must continue in the faith grounded and settled and not be moved away from the hope of the gospel. we must also abide in Christ and lay hold of eternal life and overcome to then through faith and not depart from the faith as some are warned of.

This faith is definitely ours but it is only saving faith as it lays hold and receives the word in the heart and believes. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness.

Luke 8:25
And he said unto them, Where is your faith? ..."

hey were not laying hold and trust in that seed in their hearts and were in their own carnal minds to seems and the flesh fear.

Jesus did not say

Luke 8:25
And he said unto them, Where is the faith that is mine and I forced you to have and do all things by?

 

[LoveofTruth]

You've missed the condition in His promise:

All that the Father gives me shall come to me; and him that comes to me I will in no wise cast out.

If we come to Jesus He won't cast us out. There is no such promise for those who won't come to Him.

"2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

 

[LoveofTruth]

If you are born again you are purchased by God for Jesus Christ by his blood , you do not decide now .
When Jesus says nobody is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand that include yourself even if you tried .

We read however


2 Chronicles 15:2
"... The Lord is with you, while ye be with him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake you.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Jesus does not pray that Judas would not be lost. What verses are you referring to again?

Judas was found at one time and saved at one time and sent as a sheep to the lost sheep, given power to cast out devils, heal the sick, raise the dead, and was ordained and sent forth by Jesus as one of Jesus own 12 apostles. Judas fell by transgression and was blotted out of the book of life.

We see all this in Matthew 10, and Acts 1 etc.

"1. Judas once belonged to the Father and was given to Jesus. Jesus said this when he was speaking of the twelve apostles in John 17,

“I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me;...” John 17:6


“Thine they were”, past tense, Judas was included in that.


2. Jesus called Judas one of “HIS” twelve disciples as we read;


“And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples”

Matthew 10:1

Notice first, that all twelves of the disciples were “HIS”. They all belonged to Jesus, and none of them belonged to the devil at this time. Matthew did not lie when he wrote this, Nor was Jesus ignorant of who were HIS apostles. They were all HIS, (Judas included).


3. Jesus gave all HIS twelve disciples power, Judas included,

“he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. Matthew 10:1

Here we see that all twelve of the apostles, (Judas included), were given power. And this power included casting out devils. This shows that Judas was not a devil at this time, for Satan cannot cast out Satan, as Jesus told us. And Judas had power to heal as well.


4. Judas was an apostle,

“Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter,...and Judas Iscariot, ...” Matthew 10:2-4

An apostle is a sent one of God and a high calling. This is a gift from God to believers. Notice that all TWELVE were called apostles including Judas, not just the other eleven.


5. Judas was sent forth and ordained,


“These twelve Jesus sent forth,...”

Matthew 10:5

“And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,” Mark 3:14


Jesus sent all twelve of them forth to preach, Judas included. Jesus also equipped all of them to preach, Judas included. He “ORDAINED” them also, Judas included. To be ordained means that he recognized all of them and approved of them, Judas included.


6. Judas freely received and could cast out devils, heal the sick, cleanse lepers, raise the dead, so he could also freely give as well.

“And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.” Matthew 10:7,8

This shows that he was a partaker of this ministry, obtaining part of the ministry like the others. To obtain means he was able to minister.


“...concerning Judas ...For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. “ Acts 1:17

To obtain part of the ministry you must minister, and the ministry Judas had was spoken of in Matthew 10 and Mark 3.


7. Jesus called Judas one of his sheep! THIS IS A BIG POINT!!

“These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying .... go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. ...Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves...” Matthew 10:16

This was spoken to the twelve apostles, and Judas was one of the twelve sent as a sheep to the lost sheep. This shows that Judas was saved and had eternal life at this time, because he was a sheep of Jesus. And if he was lost, how could he help the lost sheep? Jesus said his sheep hear his voice and they know him. Judas was as a sheep amidst wolves, showing that Judas wasn't a wolf then.

“ My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life” John 10:27,28

Judas heard his voice and followed him and was a sheep as Jesus said, and so he had eternal life at the beginning of his ministry. Only the biased reader would ignore this


8. Judas had the peace of God to give to others, this was spoken to the twelve, Judas included,

“...let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.” Matthew 10:13


9. He also had the Spirit of the Father speaking in him, spoken to the twelve Judas included,

“For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.” Matthew 10:20

10. Judas belonged to the household of Jesus, as we read here spoken to the twelve Judas included.

“them of his household?” Matthew 10:25


11. Judas also was a familiar friend of Jesus once and was trusted by Jesus,

“ Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.” Psalms 41:9

Jesus told us that Psalm 41:9 was referring to Judas going against him,

“...but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.’ John 13:8

This proves that Judas was not always a devil or thief as some say. He was once trusted and a familiar friend of Jesus.

Jesus does not call devils familiar friends, and he does not trust them.


12. He was blotted out of the book of life. In Acts 1 we read,

“concerning Judas...For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.... For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.” Acts 1:16-20

The Psalm mentioned here, refers to Judas,

“Let their habitation be desolate... Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.” Psalms 69:25,28

He was once in the book of life with the righteous and then blotted out. So he was once saved and had eternal life then lost it.

13. He fell by transgression, showing that he was not always fallen. But rather that he fell at a certain point in time. And he fell by transgression, it was his own will and choice.

“That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell “ Acts 1:25


14. He betrayed Jesus at a certain point in time,

“Now he that betrayed him gave them a sign, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he: hold him fast.” “Matthew 26:48


To “betray”, means to once have the trust and to go against that trust, as Judas did. He could not have betrayed that trust if he was always a devil. Because Jesus doesn’t trust devils.

Near the end of Jesus ministry he said Judas was a devil, but this he spoke of Judas who shouldbetray him, future tense. We read about this near the end of Jesus ministry in John 6:71. And “then Satan entered into him.” Luke 22:3, this , was at the end of Jesus ministry not at the beginning as we saw already.

So Judas fell away and lost his salvation.


so to sum up just some of the points

1. Judas Belonged to the Father before given to Jesus
2. Judas was a disciple of Jesus at the beginning
3. Judas was an apostle
4. Judas was a a sheep sent to the lost sheep
5. Judas was given power to cast out devils, raise the dead heal the sick ( and satan cannot cast put Satan as jesus said)
6. Judas had the peace of God to give
7. Judas was a familiar friend of Jesus whom he once trusted
8. Judas had the Spirit of the Father speaking in him when needed
9. Judas was written in the book of life once
10. Judas fell by transgression, and was blotted out

 

[razzelflabben]

So you say that when Jesus said it is finished he didn't really finish job with taking sin away and he needed your good deeds to make it work better ?

this passage drives people with this argument crazy...I'll let you all offer your interpretation I'm sure it will be entertaining....Colossians 1:24

 

[LoveofTruth]

amen exactly...now the question for OSAS and Non OSAS theology is whether or not that choice is removed when we come to God with saving faith. Remember, the children of Israel wanted to return to Egypt...are we all so different?

Yes I agree with this question. Is our faith fatalism? It seems that many would even take out the believing part of those who come to jesus , the faith that lays hold of him and receive him in their heart. They make men like robots who God puppets . But this is not what scripture reveals.

"choose life" is what scripture shows. There is a choice.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I believe that the OP is asking the question ... "Do we truly believe that we can "hold on" to a salvation ... that we had no strength to acquire in the first place ?"

1 Timothy 6:12
"Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses."

Colossians 1:23
"If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;"

1 Timothy 2:15
"Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety."

1 Corinthians 15:2
"By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain."

 

[LoveofTruth]

The everlasting life begins after we have been raised from the dead and received our new bodies. We're not there yet.

no eternal life begins as soon as you are in Christ and it continues if you abide in Him and it can go out of a person if they have an evil heart of unbelief and harden their heat etc as scripture shows

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath [present tense] everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed [present tense] from death unto life."

1 John 3:15
"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him."

Jesus Christ is eternal life and so if he is in us as believers and we abide in Him we have eternal life

1 John 1:2
(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us; )"

1 John 5:20
"And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life."

 

[LoveofTruth]

Well-known Pastor Charles Stanley in his book, Eternal Security wrote: "Look at that verse [John 3:18] and answer this question: According to Jesus, what must a person do to keep from being judged for sin? Must he stop doing something? Must he promise to stop doing something? Must he have never done something? The answer is so simple that many stumble all over it without ever seeing it. All Jesus requires is that the individual 'believe in' Him" (p. 67).
Pastor Stanley teaches that the only requirement for salvation is belief and everything after that is inconsequential.

Pastor Stanley even believes that a Christian can walk away or apostatize from the faith and will still be saved. In his book, For Those Who Stop Believing he writes: "The Bible clearly teaches that God's love for His people is of such magnitude that even those who walk away from the faith have not the slightest chance of slipping from His hand" (p. 74). "Faith is simply the way we say yes to God's free gift of eternal life. Faith and salvation are not one and the same anymore than a gift and the hand that receives it are the same. Salvation or justification or adoption- whatever you wish to call it-stands independently of faith. Consequently, God does not require a constant attitude of faith in order to be saved-only an act of faith" (p. 80). "You and I are not saved because we have an enduring faith. We are saved because at a moment in time we expressed faith in our enduring Lord" (p. 80).
So Pastor Stanley teaches that a Christian because of a one-time past moment of belief is saved no matter what he or she does - even if he or she later departs from the faith.

"And so, sometimes out of ignorance or whatever it might be, they attempt to gratify and meet those needs the same way they did before they were saved, and therefore, you can't tell a carnal believer from a lost man. That is, you can't tell the cold from the carnal because the truth is, they're both acting the same way. Now, one of them is in Christ and one of them isn't. One of them is lost and the other one is in Christ. One of them knows about God and knows him in the experience of salvation; the other doesn't know him at all." (Spiritual Vs. Carnal -- Study in 1 Cor., Tape #8, PQ092)
In other words, Stanley teaches that there is no difference in behavior between a carnal believer and an unbeliever. The only difference is that the carnal believer is still saved, despite him continuing to sin just like an unbeliever.

"A believer who commits suicide is already forgiven. Now I didn't say it was gonna be good for him, I said they're forgiven. They are pardoned of that sin."(Charles Stanley, Eternal Security Can You Be Sure?, Oliver-Nelson Books, 1990)
How can one be saved despite committing suicide? One cannot repent of killing oneself as dead persons don't have the opportunity to repent.

"No matter what you do as a child of God, you are forgiven. You say, 'Murder?' Forgiven. 'Stealing?' Forgiven. 'Adultery?' Forgiven. 'Worshiping idols?' Forgiven."(Grace: God's Second Chance -- Grace and Continuing Sin, Tape #4, MC213.)

.

It is amazing how Charles Stanley simply ignores many scriptures. I met him face to face and gave him Hebrews 3:12, he tried to stumble over it and then his security blocked me from talking to him in person and they said "the people come to hear Charles Stanley not you" i said to them, " I hope they come to hear Jesus "

but heres a few verses for Charles Stanley or any who would believe his words he said here

"No matter what you do as a child of God, you are forgiven. You say, 'Murder?' Forgiven. 'Stealing?' Forgiven. 'Adultery?' Forgiven. 'Worshiping idols?' Forgiven."(Grace: God's Second Chance -- Grace and Continuing Sin, Tape #4, MC213.)"

but scripture says

"9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."(1 Cor 6:9,10 KJV)

"12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God."(Hebrews 3:12 KJV)

 

[razzelflabben]

If you believe, as you say, that Christ began a good work in the person you refer to - and that person does not keep the faith - then God did not complete the work he began in that person.

sure He did...He completed all the work that He was given permission to finish....btw, people of your belief go absolutely buzzerk over Colossians 1:24...so tell me this, what was still lacking in Christ's afflictions? You claim there was nothing lacking yet Colossians says there was something lacking and the answer that is given in the context of this passage testifies to what I am telling you about Christ's finishing work.

This isn't a difficult concept to understand (silly lol's not withstanding).

agreed...it isn't a hard concept to understand and yet you don't understand it.

A person who passes from death to life will not come again into condemnation.

again, not a hard concept and yet you refuse to understand.

If that person give back his salvation he will come into condemnation according to you. Therefore what the Lord said about those who believe is not true according to you.

lol so you once again twist what I say...honestly I am weaning myself away from this thread because you all are repeating the ignorance of the past by not listening. The one who is saved will not see condemnation...the one who gives back his salvation...is no saved for there to be no condemnation.

Again - this isn't a difficult concept to understand.

which is why I can't understand why you don't understand it.

If the person was a true believer in whom God authored faith (and those are the only kind of "Christian" we are talking about when we discuss OSAS (note the "saved" part) - and that believer does not remain a believer and comes into condemnation because of it - then God did not complete the good work He began in that person and that person will, as a result of that failure, come into condemnation in opposition to what the Lord told us.

Not at all, why is this hard for you to understand? Seriously it's not that hard of a concept. God in His wisdom gave man power over his own decisions. A nun once said it this way...God is always a gentleman. As such, God limits Himself and His working to what man allows...it's God's choice to give man that power over what the individual man wants to do.

This isn't a difficult concept to understand.

I keep telling you it isn't that hard to understand but you still don't understand...why?

When you first say that you agree with certain things and then, when your doctrines are examined closely and they are found to be in contradiction of what you said you agree with -- it is not necessary that I provide "quotes" which say directly that you don't agree with those first things.

oh but it is because you are making false claims and not even attempting to address the points I am presenting to you that show you wrong in your judgement of me and what I believe scripture tells us about the topic. So provide the quotes or address the arguments against your judgments that I presented to you and you ignore.

Your own doctrines have confirmed that you do not believe them.

lol more of that judgment without cause...I would not want to have to answer to God for that...I have told you why there is no contradiction in what I believe and you refuse to address that and resort to more of..."it is a contradiction because I say so" arguments....either address what I said or stop talking to me. At the very least stop bearing false witness of what I believe.

If you will not acknowledge these things we will leave off our discussion at this point.

lol I have acknowledged everything that was presented as scripture, presented scriptures that support what I have said, explained how the two are reconciled and all you offer is more insults to what I do believe without anything to back up your claim. Seriously I don't blame you for this, some people are just so nearsighted they can't see past their own opinions and wisdom but I don't have to put up with it indefinitely...you need to address what I have said or not address me at all...that is how discussion works.

 

[ToBeLoved]

You've missed the condition in His promise:

All that the Father gives me shall come to me; and him that comes to me I will in no wise cast out.

If we come to Jesus He won't cast us out. There is no such promise for those who won't come to Him.

But the missing piece is that 'coming to Christ' requires faith AND belief that He is God, who became man.

So, I believe that Judas followed Jesus in a physical sense, but did not have the spiritual attributes of faith/belief in Jesus as Savior and Lord.

Which would mean that Judas never attained salvation through Christ, but instead pretended to believe.

 

[razzelflabben]

But the missing piece is that 'coming to Christ' requires faith AND belief that He is God, who became man.

So, I believe that Judas followed Jesus in a physical sense, but did not have the spiritual attributes of faith/belief in Jesus as Savior and Lord.

Which would mean that Judas never attained salvation through Christ, but instead pretended to believe.

please show scripture to back up your belief given scripture was provided that suggests you are wrong about Judas. If we have scriptures for both beliefs we can prayerfully consider how to reconcile all the passages into truth that God wants us to know.

 

[Oldmantook]

But the missing piece is that 'coming to Christ' requires faith AND belief that He is God, who became man.

So, I believe that Judas followed Jesus in a physical sense, but did not have the spiritual attributes of faith/belief in Jesus as Savior and Lord.

Which would mean that Judas never attained salvation through Christ, but instead pretended to believe.

Examine for yourself John 17:6-19 where Jesus prays for the disciples including Judas. There is no distinction whatsoever between Judas and his peers. The Father gave all of the disciples including Judas to Jesus (v.6). Did the Father make a mistake in giving Judas to Jesus? They all believed (v.9). All including Judas were kept in Jesus' name (v.12). An unbeliever is not kept in Jesus' name.
The sole distinction between Judas and the rest of the disciples is that he was lost. In other words, this passage indicates that Judas, like the others, was a saved believer but was lost because of his sin/betrayal. Sin if not repented of, leads to spiritual death.

 

[deusartemlux]

Your anthropocentric argument rings hollow. One could just as easily say that God is my pilot but he has chosen me as his co-pilot of salvation. As a co-pilot, I am required to obey the commands of the pilot. No obedience to the "pilot" = no salvation. "And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him," (Heb 5:9). Both believing and obeying are requisite for salvation. Ceasing to do either one, results in loss of salvation.

My apologies for using an undefined metaphor (however my intention of an informal comment). I imagined a co-pilotless cockpit. The last thing I want is disputes to how my examples or models are set up and what they mean. Moreover, for the best quality of comment or friendly argument, one should use scripture--as you've done. Good on you. Before I write anything I want to in the kindest way possible support my reformed faith without "arguing". I hate the often harsh bickering that takes place on these types of forums. We ought to challenge each others thinking kindly, rationally, and sincerely. So when you hear the voice behind this post hear it as calm and collected, kind and sincere.

A good definition of how OSAS and non OSAS use the word salvation would be helpful. When mentioning salvation as lost, we of the perseverance view assert such "salvation" was lost because it was not true salvation to begin with.


"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." i John ii:xix


Beautifully is in line with the words of Jesus,


"I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one." john x:xxv-xxx


I think this one makes it clear that salvation is exclusively the causation of God and had little to do with human merit, both in its origin and maintenance.


Belief on Jesus, and obedience to his will are logical guarantees of salvation. We exemplify them because we have salvation, not in order to get it or keep it. I argue that consistent failure to show belief and good works prove the no salvation ever occurred. In addition, doesn't "believe and obey" to keep our salvation imply that somehow when we do sin (like get angry with our neighbor, or lust, or doubt God's plan) we have, at least temporarily, lost our salvation? according to Hebrews vi we shouldn't ever be able to get it back. Moreover, doesn't it mean that if we loose salvation because of dim faith, Jesus died for all sin except unbelief? If so, and unbelief is a sin not atoned for, then we should all go to hell for the unbelief w e had before we believed! Going back to the OP, if it was true that I had to obey and believe to prevent loss of my salvation, I would have lost mine after day one.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Examine for yourself John 17:6-19 where Jesus prays for the disciples including Judas. There is no distinction whatsoever between Judas and his peers. The Father gave all of the disciples including Judas to Jesus (v.6). Did the Father make a mistake in giving Judas to Jesus? They all believed (v.9). All including Judas were kept in Jesus' name (v.12). An unbeliever is not kept in Jesus' name.
The sole distinction between Judas and the rest of the disciples is that he was lost. In other words, this passage indicates that Judas, like the others, was a saved believer but was lost because of his sin/betrayal. Sin if not repented of, leads to spiritual death.

John 17:12
"While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

Judas