Jesus Told Many They Would Live to See His Coming.

Daniel Martinovich · Jan 2, 2018

2tim_215 said:
I guess you would rather make God's word disjointed and contradictory to itself.. there's no other reasonable explanation for this that I can think of. What's yours ole genius one? BTW, i was just giving my opinion and you're welcome to refute it if you like When the temple was destroyed in 70 AD, I don't recall seeing anywhere that Jesus and His angels showed up and did the deed. As I recall, historically (not spiritually) it was the Romans who destroyed the temple (no angel sightings that I recall reading about). But please correct me if I'm wrong. You wouldn't be having a heated debate with someone per chance and I hit a nerve? Sorry if I burst your bubble. Oh, and after your initial comments, I stopped reading, but just after reading I don't see any of your comments refuting what I said. All you said may be true,but it doesn't reconcile with those verses in question. Be blessed.

Funny I don't remember anyone seeing Jesus riding a cloud into Egypt either when he used the same exact language to prophesy what Nebuchadnezzar will do to Egypt.
Isaiah 19:1The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rides upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. 2 And I will set the Egyptians against the Egyptians: and they shall fight every one against his brother, and every one against his neighbor; city against city, and kingdom against kingdom. 3 And the spirit of Egypt shall fail in the midst thereof; and I will destroy the counsel thereof: and they shall seek to the idols, and to the charmers, and to them that have familiar spirits, and to the wizards. 4 And the Egyptians will I give over into the hand of a cruel lord; and a fierce king shall rule over them, says the Lord, the LORD of hosts.

Or I don't recall any melting of the elements in fire like Peter says or the Lord being visible when " he" destroyed northern Israel. No actually Assyria did it.
Micah 1:2 Hear, all you people; listen, O earth, and all that therein is: and let the Lord GOD be witness against you, the LORD from his holy temple. 3 For, behold, the LORD comes forth out of his place, and will come down, and tread on the high places of the earth. 4 And the mountains shall be molten under him, and the valleys shall be cleft, as wax before the fire, and as the waters that are poured down a steep place. 5 For the transgression of Jacob is all this, and for the sins of the house of Israel. What is the transgression of Jacob? is it not Samaria? and what are the high places of Judah? are they not Jerusalem? 6 Therefore I will make Samaria as an heap of the field, and as plantings of a vineyard: and I will pour down the stones thereof into the valley, and I will discover the foundations thereof. 7 And all the graven images thereof shall be beaten to pieces, and all the hires thereof shall be burned with the fire, and all the idols thereof will I lay desolate: for she gathered it of the hire of an harlot, and they shall return to the hire of an harlot. 8 Therefore I will wail and howl, I will go stripped and naked: I will make a wailing like the dragons, and mourning as the owls. 9 For her wound is incurable; for it is come to Judah; he is come to the gate of my people, even to Jerusalem. AKJV
Nor do I reacall anything about the stars of heaven falling from the skys and the heavens being rolled up like a scroll, or a visible sword coming down from heaven when Isaiah prophesied against Edom and what Nebuchadnezzar would do to them. Nope Nebuchanezzer did it all.
Isaiah 34:1 Come near, you nations, to hear; and listen, you people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it. 2 For the indignation of the LORD is on all nations, and his fury on all their armies: he has utterly destroyed them, he has delivered them to the slaughter. 3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcasses, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. 4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falls off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree. 5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down on Idumea, and on the people of my curse, to judgment. 6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD has a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea. 7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness. 8 For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion. 9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. 10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever. AKJV
Same thing with Ezekiel's prophecy about Nebuchadnezzar's Babylon conquering Egypt.
Ezekiel 32:1 And it came to pass in the twelfth year, in the twelfth month, in the first day of the month, that the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 2 Son of man, take up a lamentation for Pharaoh king of Egypt, and say to him, You are like a young lion of the nations, and you are as a whale in the seas: and you came forth with your rivers, and troubled the waters with your feet, and fouled their rivers. 3 Thus said the Lord GOD; I will therefore spread out my net over you with a company of many people; and they shall bring you up in my net. 4 Then will I leave you on the land, I will cast you forth on the open field, and will cause all the fowls of the heaven to remain on you, and I will fill the beasts of the whole earth with you. 5 And I will lay your flesh on the mountains, and fill the valleys with your height. 6 I will also water with your blood the land wherein you swim, even to the mountains; and the rivers shall be full of you. 7 And when I shall put you out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. 8 All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over you, and set darkness on your land, said the Lord GOD. 9 I will also vex the hearts of many people, when I shall bring your destruction among the nations, into the countries which you have not known. 10 Yes, I will make many people amazed at you, and their kings shall be horribly afraid for you, when I shall brandish my sword before them; and they shall tremble at every moment, every man for his own life, in the day of your fall. 11 For thus said the Lord GOD; The sword of the king of Babylon shall come on you. 12 By the swords of the mighty will I cause your multitude to fall, the terrible of the nations, all of them: and they shall spoil the pomp of Egypt, and all the multitude thereof shall be destroyed. 13 I will destroy also all the beasts thereof from beside the great waters; neither shall the foot of man trouble them any more, nor the hoofs of beasts trouble them. 14 Then will I make their waters deep, and cause their rivers to run like oil, said the Lord GOD. 15 When I shall make the land of Egypt desolate, and the country shall be destitute of that whereof it was full, when I shall smite all them that dwell therein, then shall they know that I am the LORD. .......... 32 For I have caused my terror in the land of the living: and he shall be laid in the middle of the uncircumcised with them that are slain with the sword, even Pharaoh and all his multitude, said the Lord GOD. AKJV

How many of these prophecies do you want me to cut and paste 20? 30? What I am pointing out to you that the language used in the New Testament about the coming of the Lord to destroy Jerusalem is THE EXACT same illustrative language used in OT prophecy long fulfilled before the messiah came. Its not unique. Its the common illustrative language of Bible prophecy. Once you realize this which I hope you will some day. You'll realize the absurdity of saying Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 have not come to pass because the language about stars and clouds and Jesus being visible and blood moons and dark suns and the heavens rolling up as a scroll have never happened. Sorry I sound mean. I am tired of having to keep talking about this.

Johnny4ChristJesus · Jan 2, 2018

Daniel Martinovich said:
Not not really. Especially since I define heresy very narrowly. Its the Greek word for sect. It really has nothing to do with a false teaching. People can become sectarian over something that is the truth just as easily as something that is false. A group of people goes full sectarian when they separate themselves from all other Christians and say their little group are the only ones with the truth. But I guess I can turn on the snark if that's all I am getting and believe me on some forums talking to leftists that is all I get.

I won't argue that often in Scripture, the greek word is used to mean "sect"; but here are two passages that also support the use as meaning "false teaching":

In 1 Cor 11:18-19, Paul mentions divisions (what we might call sects) and then uses the same word for heresy. So, that use seems to distinquish between sects and the reason they separate, called heresy.

In 2 Pet 2:1, Peter talks about false teachers bringing in destructive heresies. Are they bringing in sects or false teaching that leads to sects?

Daniel Martinovich · Jan 2, 2018

Johnny4ChristJesus said:
I won't argue that often in Scripture, the greek word is used to mean "sect"; but here are two passages that also support the use as meaning "false teaching":

In 1 Cor 11:18-19, Paul mentions divisions (what we might call sects) and then uses the same word for heresy. So, that use seems to distinquish between sects and the reason they separate, called heresy.

In 2 Pet 2:1, Peter talks about false teachers bringing in destructive heresies. Are they bringing in sects or false teaching that leads to sects?

I don't know I would have to look that up later. The one I was refering to is one of Paul's list of things that will keep you from any inhertance in the kingdom of God.

Daniel Martinovich · Jan 2, 2018

Johnny4ChristJesus said:
We view things differently. I agree with the Word of God.

I understand stirring people, as I do that with posts that God has given me to me.

I refer to the "first coming" as when Jesus came to die on the Cross. But, Jesus came after being resurrected from the dead. That was a first appearing (after His death and resurrection). The angels told the original apostles that Jesus would come back the same way He left after that appearing (Acts 1:10-11), so that is what I refer to as "the second coming". I don't count the appearance of the resurrected Christ as a (not the) second coming, though people certainly wouldn't be wrong to do that. But, the angels told the original apostles that Jesus was coming back the same way He left and that was after the risen Christ had appeared to many people and left (Acts 1:10-11).

Jesus still hadn't appeared that second time when the Revelation was given to John while John was on Patmos (Rev 1:9).

The Holy Spirit inspired Scripture, yet the Holy Spirit inspired Paul to write: "But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.... For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face-to-face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." (1 Cor 13:10,12) Some think this was fulfilled when what we call the Bible was solidified. But, put those people you call Christians together and see if they know even as they are known. If He who is perfect had come, there would be none of the foolishness and debating about the meaning of Scripture that we see today. And, the title "Christian" means nothing today in much of the western world. Most turn away when things don't go their way, let alone when their lives are threatened. That's not a believer in Jesus Christ, according to Jesus' Words.

Jesus comes back for His own, then judgment happens, then those who aren't in the lake of fire enjoy all the benefits of "the former things being passed away" (Rev 21:4) and there is no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying, nor pain. That certainly does not describe today. Look around.

I just wrote these to another person. It sounds a litle snarky I know. I am way to tired to be here doing this. Just copying and pasting them then here for you to think on.

Funny I don't remember anyone seeing Jesus riding a cloud into Egypt either when he used the same exact language to prophesy what Nebuchadnezzar will do to Egypt.
Isaiah 19:1The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rides upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. 2 And I will set the Egyptians against the Egyptians: and they shall fight every one against his brother, and every one against his neighbor; city against city, and kingdom against kingdom. 3 And the spirit of Egypt shall fail in the midst thereof; and I will destroy the counsel thereof: and they shall seek to the idols, and to the charmers, and to them that have familiar spirits, and to the wizards. 4 And the Egyptians will I give over into the hand of a cruel lord; and a fierce king shall rule over them, says the Lord, the LORD of hosts.

Or I don't recall any melting of the elements in fire like Peter says or the Lord being visible when " he" destroyed northern Israel. No actually Assyria did it.
Micah 1:2 Hear, all you people; listen, O earth, and all that therein is: and let the Lord GOD be witness against you, the LORD from his holy temple. 3 For, behold, the LORD comes forth out of his place, and will come down, and tread on the high places of the earth. 4 And the mountains shall be molten under him, and the valleys shall be cleft, as wax before the fire, and as the waters that are poured down a steep place. 5 For the transgression of Jacob is all this, and for the sins of the house of Israel. What is the transgression of Jacob? is it not Samaria? and what are the high places of Judah? are they not Jerusalem? 6 Therefore I will make Samaria as an heap of the field, and as plantings of a vineyard: and I will pour down the stones thereof into the valley, and I will discover the foundations thereof. 7 And all the graven images thereof shall be beaten to pieces, and all the hires thereof shall be burned with the fire, and all the idols thereof will I lay desolate: for she gathered it of the hire of an harlot, and they shall return to the hire of an harlot. 8 Therefore I will wail and howl, I will go stripped and naked: I will make a wailing like the dragons, and mourning as the owls. 9 For her wound is incurable; for it is come to Judah; he is come to the gate of my people, even to Jerusalem. AKJV
Nor do I reacall anything about the stars of heaven falling from the skys and the heavens being rolled up like a scroll, or a visible sword coming down from heaven when Isaiah prophesied against Edom and what Nebuchadnezzar would do to them. Nope Nebuchanezzer did it all.
Isaiah 34:1 Come near, you nations, to hear; and listen, you people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it. 2 For the indignation of the LORD is on all nations, and his fury on all their armies: he has utterly destroyed them, he has delivered them to the slaughter. 3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcasses, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. 4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falls off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree. 5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down on Idumea, and on the people of my curse, to judgment. 6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD has a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea. 7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness. 8 For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion. 9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. 10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever. AKJV
Same thing with Ezekiel's prophecy about Nebuchadnezzar's Babylon conquering Egypt.
Ezekiel 32:1 And it came to pass in the twelfth year, in the twelfth month, in the first day of the month, that the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 2 Son of man, take up a lamentation for Pharaoh king of Egypt, and say to him, You are like a young lion of the nations, and you are as a whale in the seas: and you came forth with your rivers, and troubled the waters with your feet, and fouled their rivers. 3 Thus said the Lord GOD; I will therefore spread out my net over you with a company of many people; and they shall bring you up in my net. 4 Then will I leave you on the land, I will cast you forth on the open field, and will cause all the fowls of the heaven to remain on you, and I will fill the beasts of the whole earth with you. 5 And I will lay your flesh on the mountains, and fill the valleys with your height. 6 I will also water with your blood the land wherein you swim, even to the mountains; and the rivers shall be full of you. 7 And when I shall put you out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. 8 All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over you, and set darkness on your land, said the Lord GOD. 9 I will also vex the hearts of many people, when I shall bring your destruction among the nations, into the countries which you have not known. 10 Yes, I will make many people amazed at you, and their kings shall be horribly afraid for you, when I shall brandish my sword before them; and they shall tremble at every moment, every man for his own life, in the day of your fall. 11 For thus said the Lord GOD; The sword of the king of Babylon shall come on you. 12 By the swords of the mighty will I cause your multitude to fall, the terrible of the nations, all of them: and they shall spoil the pomp of Egypt, and all the multitude thereof shall be destroyed. 13 I will destroy also all the beasts thereof from beside the great waters; neither shall the foot of man trouble them any more, nor the hoofs of beasts trouble them. 14 Then will I make their waters deep, and cause their rivers to run like oil, said the Lord GOD. 15 When I shall make the land of Egypt desolate, and the country shall be destitute of that whereof it was full, when I shall smite all them that dwell therein, then shall they know that I am the LORD. .......... 32 For I have caused my terror in the land of the living: and he shall be laid in the middle of the uncircumcised with them that are slain with the sword, even Pharaoh and all his multitude, said the Lord GOD. AKJV

How many of these prophecies do you want me to cut and paste 20? 30? What I am pointing out to you that the language used in the New Testament about the coming of the Lord to destroy Jerusalem is THE EXACT same illustrative language used in OT prophecy long fulfilled before the messiah came. Its not unique. Its the common illustrative language of Bible prophecy. Once you realize this which I hope you will some day. You'll realize the absurdity of saying Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 have not come to pass because the language about stars and clouds and Jesus being visible and blood moons and dark suns and the heavens rolling up as a scroll have never happened. Sorry I sound mean. I am tired of having to keep talking about this.

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98cwitr · Jan 2, 2018

Daniel Martinovich said:
Sorry for answering you here if I am not supposed to. I do not know what pm me means.

Where are you getting the idea that the belief that Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 is fulfilled is full preterism? That would make any one, ah millennialist , Post millennialist and some others full preterist. To put it another way. Anyone that is not a (full) futurist is now a full preterist according to your definition. That would include partial preterists because most of them say it’s these three chapters that are fulfilled.
Full preterism teaches that the entire book of Revelation is talking about the destruction of Jerusalem.
I teach that less than a chapter in Revelation is talking about the destruction of Jerusalem.
If you thought I was pulling something when I said to you those 3 chapters were (mostly) fulfilled in 70 ad but previously said they were completely fulfilled. What I was referring to is the verse in Matt. And Mark about the great gathering of souls that occur after the city is destroyed. I just wanted to leave room for the fact that I think that is a reference to the great harvest of souls that occurred in the Roman Empire in the centuries following. As I had also stated pretty clearly in a previous comment.
I’m not accusing you of some great sin here but just an FYI. You are not only falsely accusing me of a great heresy, (preterism.) But I assume your also listening to a couple of liars and that is where your opinion is coming from.
Let me know what a pm is so that I don’t keep posting this kind of thing publically.

PM means Private Message, and you are more than welcome to send me one. Anyway, let's keep this thread on topic please.

2tim_215 · Jan 2, 2018

Daniel Martinovich said:
I just wrote these to another person. It sounds a litle snarky I know. I am way to tired to be here doing this. Just copying and pasting them then here for you to think on.

Funny I don't remember anyone seeing Jesus riding a cloud into Egypt either when he used the same exact language to prophesy what Nebuchadnezzar will do to Egypt.

Isaiah 19:1The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rides upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. 2 And I will set the Egyptians against the Egyptians: and they shall fight every one against his brother, and every one against his neighbor; city against city, and kingdom against kingdom. 3 And the spirit of Egypt shall fail in the midst thereof; and I will destroy the counsel thereof: and they shall seek to the idols, and to the charmers, and to them that have familiar spirits, and to the wizards. 4 And the Egyptians will I give over into the hand of a cruel lord; and a fierce king shall rule over them, says the Lord, the LORD of hosts.

Or I don't recall any melting of the elements in fire like Peter says or the Lord being visible when " he" destroyed northern Israel. No actually Assyria did it.
Micah 1:2 Hear, all you people; listen, O earth, and all that therein is: and let the Lord GOD be witness against you, the LORD from his holy temple. 3 For, behold, the LORD comes forth out of his place, and will come down, and tread on the high places of the earth. 4 And the mountains shall be molten under him, and the valleys shall be cleft, as wax before the fire, and as the waters that are poured down a steep place. 5 For the transgression of Jacob is all this, and for the sins of the house of Israel. What is the transgression of Jacob? is it not Samaria? and what are the high places of Judah? are they not Jerusalem? 6 Therefore I will make Samaria as an heap of the field, and as plantings of a vineyard: and I will pour down the stones thereof into the valley, and I will discover the foundations thereof. 7 And all the graven images thereof shall be beaten to pieces, and all the hires thereof shall be burned with the fire, and all the idols thereof will I lay desolate: for she gathered it of the hire of an harlot, and they shall return to the hire of an harlot. 8 Therefore I will wail and howl, I will go stripped and naked: I will make a wailing like the dragons, and mourning as the owls. 9 For her wound is incurable; for it is come to Judah; he is come to the gate of my people, even to Jerusalem. AKJV
Nor do I reacall anything about the stars of heaven falling from the skys and the heavens being rolled up like a scroll, or a visible sword coming down from heaven when Isaiah prophesied against Edom and what Nebuchadnezzar would do to them. Nope Nebuchanezzer did it all.
Isaiah 34:1 Come near, you nations, to hear; and listen, you people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it. 2 For the indignation of the LORD is on all nations, and his fury on all their armies: he has utterly destroyed them, he has delivered them to the slaughter. 3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcasses, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. 4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falls off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree. 5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down on Idumea, and on the people of my curse, to judgment. 6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD has a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea. 7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness. 8 For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion. 9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. 10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever. AKJV
Same thing with Ezekiel's prophecy about Nebuchadnezzar's Babylon conquering Egypt.
Ezekiel 32:1 And it came to pass in the twelfth year, in the twelfth month, in the first day of the month, that the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 2 Son of man, take up a lamentation for Pharaoh king of Egypt, and say to him, You are like a young lion of the nations, and you are as a whale in the seas: and you came forth with your rivers, and troubled the waters with your feet, and fouled their rivers. 3 Thus said the Lord GOD; I will therefore spread out my net over you with a company of many people; and they shall bring you up in my net. 4 Then will I leave you on the land, I will cast you forth on the open field, and will cause all the fowls of the heaven to remain on you, and I will fill the beasts of the whole earth with you. 5 And I will lay your flesh on the mountains, and fill the valleys with your height. 6 I will also water with your blood the land wherein you swim, even to the mountains; and the rivers shall be full of you. 7 And when I shall put you out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. 8 All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over you, and set darkness on your land, said the Lord GOD. 9 I will also vex the hearts of many people, when I shall bring your destruction among the nations, into the countries which you have not known. 10 Yes, I will make many people amazed at you, and their kings shall be horribly afraid for you, when I shall brandish my sword before them; and they shall tremble at every moment, every man for his own life, in the day of your fall. 11 For thus said the Lord GOD; The sword of the king of Babylon shall come on you. 12 By the swords of the mighty will I cause your multitude to fall, the terrible of the nations, all of them: and they shall spoil the pomp of Egypt, and all the multitude thereof shall be destroyed. 13 I will destroy also all the beasts thereof from beside the great waters; neither shall the foot of man trouble them any more, nor the hoofs of beasts trouble them. 14 Then will I make their waters deep, and cause their rivers to run like oil, said the Lord GOD. 15 When I shall make the land of Egypt desolate, and the country shall be destitute of that whereof it was full, when I shall smite all them that dwell therein, then shall they know that I am the LORD. .......... 32 For I have caused my terror in the land of the living: and he shall be laid in the middle of the uncircumcised with them that are slain with the sword, even Pharaoh and all his multitude, said the Lord GOD. AKJV

How many of these prophecies do you want me to cut and paste 20? 30? What I am pointing out to you that the language used in the New Testament about the coming of the Lord to destroy Jerusalem is THE EXACT same illustrative language used in OT prophecy long fulfilled before the messiah came. Its not unique. Its the common illustrative language of Bible prophecy. Once you realize this which I hope you will some day. You'll realize the absurdity of saying Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 have not come to pass because the language about stars and clouds and Jesus being visible and blood moons and dark suns and the heavens rolling up as a scroll have never happened. Sorry I sound mean. I am tired of having to keep talking about this.

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Talk about spiritualizing. Don't recall angels being mentioned in any of your 20 or 30 quotes either. What ever happened to taking things literally? Jesus said they'd see Him coming with angels. And not to be off kilter, but there is this problem you have with Old Testament vs New. In many of your examples I don't believe that Christ has come on the scene yet and this is God the Father who is declaring and passing judgement, not Jesus. And with what Jesus describes in these verses, I'm pretty sure He's the one who will be bringing the destruction along with His angels (no need to bring angels with Him if all we're talking about is destroying the Jewish temple, and I can't see God destroying His own temple). It just doesn't seem to work the way you're describing. No Jesus mentioned (He would have appeared during the destruction of the temple if you were right) and when He said "strike down this temple and I will rebuild it in 3 days", it was quite clear that He was talking about His human body which we know is "God's temple". You can't just leave spiritual out of it, because the Bible is a spiritual book although it does need to be balanced (spiritual and natural as well as literal where appropriate). I just went back and look at those examples in more depth. Do you think those are events that already took place or will take place in the future? I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. 8 All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over you, and set darkness on your land, said the Lord GOD.
4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falls off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree. 5
Sounds like Peter when he tells us about the world being destroyed with fervent heat. Prophecy that hasn't happened yet. Those were warnings to Nebuchannezzar and the Jews.

Truth7t7 · Jan 3, 2018

Daniel Martinovich said:
Not not really. Especially since I define heresy very narrowly. Its the Greek word for sect. It really has nothing to do with a false teaching. People can become sectarian over something that is the truth just as easily as something that is false. A group of people goes full sectarian when they separate themselves from all other Christians and say their little group are the only ones with the truth. But I guess I can turn on the snark if that's all I am getting and believe me on some forums talking to leftists that is all I get.

The christian world calls those groups that separate themselves, and teach they are the truth "Cults"

JIMINZ · Jan 3, 2018

Truth7t7 said:
Jesus didn't speak of a literal destruction of the temple, he taught he would destroy the temple symbolically and build it again in three days, death, burial, resurrection.
.
Then what part of Jesus symbolic body is representative of "One stone upon another"?

JIMINZ · Jan 3, 2018

Truth7t7 said:
The great tribulation, abomination of desolation, return of Jesus in glory, bodily resurrection of believers, final judgment of all, and eternal kingdom are yet future events.

.
Chapter and verse?

Truth7t7 · Jan 3, 2018

When Jesus Christ died the temple was destroyed, as the veil in the temple was rent.

Jesus Christ is now the holy of holies

One stone upon another was a truth, not one stone, but the entire temple was removed, "Gone"!

You look at a literal temple of stones, Jesus taught of the spiritual aspect of the temple, that he replaced in three days.

No need to beat a dead horse, I explained myself.

The Times · Jan 3, 2018

Daniel Martinovich said:
Your repeating pattern of many here that when verses and chapters that are using the same language as chapters and verses they authoritatively demand be recognized as a "second" coming and demand that they be taken literally

The ascension of Jesus was literal, right?

Yet the context of coming into the glory of the Father has to be directly tied to his literal ascension.

I am taking it literal, are you?

Daniel Martinovich said:
All of a sudden start straining at gnats and swallowing camels, splitting hairs and "spiritualizing" every thing.

A literal ascension marks Jesus coming into the glory of the Father (Ancient of Days). Daniel's prophetic vision fulfilled at Christ's ascension.

Coming into the Father's glory, must be tied to the establishment of his eternal Kingdom. You don't deny that do you?

Daniel 2:44 ring a bell.

Daniel Martinovich said:
If a statement like: "he shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works." were in Mathew 24, Mark 13 or Luke 21 or the book of Revelation there would be instant demands that it be taken "literally" as the resurrection or "the Great White Throne" judgment at the second coming etc etc. But now it must be spritualized since it won't fit into the idea of a one time end of the world as we know it event called "the second" coming.

Going into his Father's glory as our Kingly High Priest, intercessing on our behalf in the Holy of Holies, must be before the anointing of the Church on the Day of Pentecost. The rewards come later.

Daniel Martinovich said:
Seriously, why? Were not the buildings and the city destroyed in 70 AD like Jesus said? Was there not horrendous tribulation that brought the war about? Were there not earthquakes, famines, and pestilences, false prophets and false Christ's all over the place? Did it not happen to the very generation he was speaking to exactly as predicted? Was he not speaking to the people in the second person for the entire prophecy?

Sure and so!

Daniel Martinovich said:
A fact that cannot be disputed if your going to follow any rules at all in the reading and understanding of literature. Did not he age end were God almost exclusively used the Hebrew people to herald the Word and the Gospel?

The old ended, yet the new began and it began when Jesus entered the Holy of Holies, in the Father's glory.

Jesus did say that the gospel will be preached in all the world, then the end will come. If the old testament had an end in the 1st century, then the new testament has an end in the future, at Christ's return, when physical death will be no more.

Daniel Martinovich said:
Didn't the believers get delivered from the war? I spent a long time demonstrated that the highly illustrative verses were also fulfilled. Why the need for such gymnastics?

We can not run to other context, if I have contentions with you, on the very verse you started your thread with.

You have to prove to me that Jesus did not enter the Father's glory until some future wars and famines and environmental conditions were met, in 70AD.

If you follow that Preterist conjecture, then it would preposteriously imply that Jesus lied to Mary Magdalin on the day of his resurrection.

Daniel Martinovich said:
I mean if the city and the sanctuary were not destroyed and the trials and tribulations elucidated didn't happen then I might see the point. By why the necessity to "spiritualize" the verses in your comment but not allow the same thing with the three chapters?

You have to prove and to give merit to 40 years of nothingness from Christ's accession until 70AD, in order to disprove that Christ did in fact enter the Father's glory at his ascension.

I am shocked that you are supporting a Preterist position that has no basis for the second coming of Christ, in the opening thread verse you quoted.

You are totally dismissing a literal ascension and thereby spiritualising Christ's resurrection and his ascension and yet falsely accusing me of spiritualising matters that are literal.

How ironic, I might add!

Truth7t7 · Jan 3, 2018

JIMINZ said:
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Chapter and verse?

Do you believe any of the afore mentioned in post #277 are future?

JIMINZ · Jan 3, 2018

Johnny4ChristJesus said:
I refer to the "first coming" as when Jesus came to die on the Cross. But, Jesus came after being resurrected from the dead. That was a first appearing (after His death and resurrection).

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Jesus came to earth to die on the cross, (The first coming).

Jesus was Crucified and was Resurrected, at which time He said to Mary Magdalene

John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Can we then assume, between the time Jesus spoke to Mary Magdalene, He went to Heaven and His Father, that in the evening of the second day when He appeared to the Disciples, that was the "Second Coming" ?

John 20:19
Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

JIMINZ · Jan 3, 2018

Truth7t7 said:
When Jesus Christ died the temple was destroyed, as the veil in the temple was rent.

Jesus Christ is now the holy of holies

One stone upon another was a truth, not one stone, but the entire temple was removed, "Gone"!

You look at a literal temple of stones, Jesus taught of the spiritual aspect of the temple, that he replaced in three days.

No need to beat a dead horse, I explained myself.

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You know, I was going to mention that very same horse you keep beating, you just don't know what the Bible says, so you make up a bunch of things from all over and assume people won't notice your using smoke and mirrors.

Your just voicing your belief on the book of Revelation which you have Interpreted so precisely

JIMINZ · Jan 3, 2018

Truth7t7 said:
The great tribulation, abomination of desolation, return of Jesus in glory, bodily resurrection of believers, final judgment of all, and eternal kingdom are yet future events.

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Some yes, some no, and some undecided as of yet.

JIMINZ · Jan 3, 2018

Truth7t7 said:
When Jesus Christ died the temple was destroyed, as the veil in the temple was rent.

Jesus Christ is now the holy of holies

One stone upon another was a truth, not one stone, but the entire temple was removed, "Gone"!

You look at a literal temple of stones, Jesus taught of the spiritual aspect of the temple, that he replaced in three days.

No need to beat a dead horse, I explained myself.

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Jesus IS NOT The Holy of Holies.

Heb. 10:20
By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, tthrough the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

Truth7t7 · Jan 3, 2018

JIMINZ said:
.
Jesus came to earth to die on the cross, (The first coming).

Jesus was Crucified and was Resurrected, at which time He said to Mary Magdalene

John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Can we then assume, between the time Jesus spoke to Mary Magdalene, He went to Heaven and His Father, that in the evening of the second day when He appeared to the Disciples, that was the "Second Coming" ?

John 20:19
Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

Do you believe in the return of Jesus Christ as seen in Matthew 24:29-31?

Truth7t7 · Jan 3, 2018

Hebrews 9:24-26KJV
24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

JIMINZ said:
.
Jesus IS NOT The Holy of Holies.

Heb. 10:20
By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, tthrough the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

Truth7t7 · Jan 3, 2018

JIMINZ said:
.
Some yes, some no, and some undecided as of yet.

Lets start with one you believe is fulfilled?

JIMINZ · Jan 3, 2018

Truth7t7 said:
Hebrews 9:24-26KJV
24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

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????

Jesus Told Many They Would Live to See His Coming.

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