John 20:28 is the next "trinitarian proof text" to fall.

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Dartman

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It says Adam was made in God's image... which means according to the Hebrew word used, Adam looked like the one who made him.
I agree totally.
Jehovah/YHVH God created humans to look like Him.
Jesus was a MUCH more perfect "image" of his God, than Adam was, in that Jesus' spirit was perfectly conformed to his God's spirit.
Ken Rank said:
No, you are just backpedaling now... you didn't say, "I reject the trinitarian doctrine" you said...

"I am not a brother to the trinitarian's"

The word brother denotes through Christ since you wouldn't be a flesh and blood brother to everyone reading this anyway. And because you said, "trinitarIAN" and not just trinity, by using the "ian" ending you were specifically dealing with PEOPLE. This is 6th grade grammar here.

You renounced anyone who does not agree with your view that Jesus is not God as not being a brother in the Lord to you... i.e. "not a true Christian." I am fairly certain that not only violates the terms of this forum, but it also has you supplanting God in His role of determining who does, and does not, belong to HIM.

This really is my last reply to you here. We are to reflect the Lord in our words and deeds, not bicker like children and I have allowed myself to get pulled into just that. I need to let this go... please be blessed.

Peace.
Ken
Your reply is confusing.
You refuse to acknowledge that trinitarians conclude I am not "Christian".... even though the rules for this site make it glaringly apparent.
Are you ALSO denying that trinitarians have, through the centuries, burned "non-trinitarians" at the stake?
Here is JUST ONE example;
At his trial, Servetus was condemned on two counts, for spreading and preaching Nontrinitarianism, specifically, Modalistic Monarchianism, or Sabellianism, and anti-paedobaptism (anti-infant baptism).
Michael Servetus - Wikipedia

What is your understanding of this Scripture;
2 John 9 Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting;11 for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds.
 
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JIMINZ

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That is an interesting point (to a werse that we are not focusing on in this thread), however perhaps not totally precise as this link will have it: Ego Eimi in John 8:58 "if you look at a copy of the Septuagint, you will see that God imself as "ego eimi ho ohn" (I Am that I Am)"

AMEN!!!

John 8:58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
 
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tstor

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It says Adam was made in God's image... which means according to the Hebrew word used, Adam looked like the one who made him.
You are incorrect. The Hebrew term used in Genesis 1:26 is tselem, which is defined as "image, likeness, of resemblance" (Brown-Driver-Briggs). You seem to take this to mean that the "image" of God is actually flesh and bones. This is not the case. The scriptures are quite explicit in saying that God is a spirit (John 4:24). The "image" has nothing to do with physical appearances. In Colossians 1:15, when it is said that Jesus is the "image" of the invisible God, it is not referring to appearances. Besides, trinitarians do not believe God had anything to do with flesh and bones prior to the incarnation.
 
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Dartman

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You are incorrect. The Hebrew term used in Genesis 1:26 is tselem, which is defined as "image, likeness, of resemblance" (Brown-Driver-Briggs). You seem to take this to mean that the "image" of God is actually flesh and bones. This is not the case.
No, the Hebrew TSELEM is ALWAYS a Visual representation. Just check the 20 or so times the word is used.

tstor said:
The scriptures are quite explicit in saying that God is a spirit (John 4:24).
No, the Scriptures only say this once, and this is grossly misunderstood. The majority of the time in Scripture, the word "spirit" means; A mental disposition. The Scriptures only discuss the pagan notion of spirit twice, when Jesus ridiculed the notion in Luke 24:39 and when Solomon ridiculed the concept in Eccl 3:18-22.
The Scriptures ARE quite explicit in saying Jehovah/YHVH God has a face, a back, hands, walks, talks etc.
Ex 33 & 34, Psa 17:15, Matt 5:8. Matt 18:10.
 
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Ken Rank

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You are incorrect. The Hebrew term used in Genesis 1:26 is tselem, which is defined as "image, likeness, of resemblance" (Brown-Driver-Briggs). You seem to take this to mean that the "image" of God is actually flesh and bones. This is not the case. The scriptures are quite explicit in saying that God is a spirit (John 4:24). The "image" has nothing to do with physical appearances. In Colossians 1:15, when it is said that Jesus is the "image" of the invisible God, it is not referring to appearances. Besides, trinitarians do not believe God had anything to do with flesh and bones prior to the incarnation.
I am not incorrect... the word "image" has been used since it was chosen in the first English translations. However, the meaning of the English word has changed over time (just a little). When we see "image" as the first lexicon word... it helps to see how the word was defined long ago. In any event... if you believe that the word "image" means "character of" then EVERY HUMAN walks with the character traits of love, peace, joy, patience, long suffering, etc.? No... that is not the case. And... there were 3 men who came to Abraham. Two turn out to be angels but the one is not only called "YHWH" when He spoke it says, "and YHWH said..." Also, God WALKED in the garden in the cool of the day. My point is simply that I agree... God is a Spirit, but that doesn't mean that Spirit can't take on a body to interact with His creation. That doesn't confine Him... it actually just means He's capable of more than you seem to think.

Shalom.
 
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tstor

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My point is simply that I agree... God is a Spirit, but that doesn't mean that Spirit can't take on a body to interact with His creation. That doesn't confine Him... it actually just means He's capable of more than you seem to think.
While most of your post was fairly standard stuff that I had heard before, this part caught my attention. I would say that a spirit can materialize itself into different flesh and bone bodies. However, that is not to say that I believe God can do such a thing (as it would contradict at least one of His essential attributes, omnipresence). You mentioned the example of Genesis 18, but the text does not demand that we believe any of the three angels were physically Jehovah (hence why they are idenitified as "angels"). Rather, it is Jehovah using the one angel as an agent.
 
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Ken Rank

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While most of your post was fairly standard stuff that I had heard before, this part caught my attention. I would say that a spirit can materialize itself into different flesh and bone bodies. However, that is not to say that I believe God can do such a thing (as it would contradict at least one of His essential attributes, omnipresence).
Respectfully, it only contradicts your (or our) understanding of omnipresence. Can God be sitting on the throne and inside millions of believers at the same time? Yes... so why can't He sit on the throne and occupy a body at the same time? God has no limitations... omnipresence by definition is all places at all times.
 
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Dartman

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Omnipresence isn't Scriptural. It's merely a misunderstanding of Psa 139, discussing God's spirit, God's mind, being aware of all places.
The Scriptures repeatedly discuss God's presence being in heaven, and NOT on earth. And after the 3rd Heaven and earth, LEAVING heaven, and COMING to the earth.
 
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GeorgeTwo

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Thomas had JUST accepted that "the God of him", had brought back to life "the Lord of him".
Jesus praised Thomas, sort of, because he FINALLY got it, but criticized him for lacking the faith to accept without seeing first.

Nonsense.
 
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Ken Rank

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Jer. 23:24 "Can a man hide himself in hiding places So I do not see him?" declares the LORD "Do I not fill the heavens and the earth?" declares the LORD.

1 Kings 8:27 "But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain You, how much less this house which I have built!

Col. 1:17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

Matt 18:20 "For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst." (and on the throne?)

Isa. 57:15 For thus says the high and exalted One Who lives forever, whose name is Holy, "I dwell on a high and holy place, And also with the contrite and lowly of spirit In order to revive the spirit of the lowly And to revive the heart of the contrite.

Psa 139:7-10 Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there. If I take the wings of the morning, And dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, Even there Your hand shall lead me, And Your right hand shall hold me. (Right hand is used idiomatically as the power and presence of the Lord)

Pro 15:3 The eyes of the Lord are in every place, Keeping watch on the evil and the good.

Isa. 43:2 When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; And through the rivers, they shall not overflow you. When you walk through the fire, you shall not be burned, Nor shall the flame scorch you.

Amos 9:2-3 "Though they dig into hell, From there my hand shall take them; Though they climb up to heaven, From there I will bring them down; And though they hide themselves on top of Carmel, From there I will search and take them; Though they hide from My sight at the bottom of the sea, From there I will command the serpent, and it shall bite them;

Gen 28:15 Behold, I am with you and will keep you wherever you go, and will bring you back to this land; for I will not leave you until I have done what I have spoken to you." (While on the throne)

Enough verses for somebody to come away believing that God can be in all places at all times. I find it amusing if it weren't so sad... that fallen human beings who can't explain over 90% of the creation itself, have completely figured out the one who created what they don't fully understand. And you be able to take a hard line "my way or the highway" attitude with others who love the Lord and to go as far as to say those who don't agree with you are not "brothers" is sickening. It is revealing of why ONE BODY has over 30,000 denominations (divisions) and sects.

I mean, for crying out loud... Psalm 139 is taken out of context (???) and so is Jeremiah 23:24 (first one listed)? How much plainer does the Jeremiah verse have to be? All of these have to be "out of context" to maintain your views. The bible very clearly states God is omnipresent... He can be on the throne and in YOU at the same time unless you take the position that the Holy Spirit is a second person and though you don't agree on the trinity, you are something of a binity adherent? Please.....
 
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Dartman

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Dartman said:
Thomas had JUST accepted that "the God of him", had brought back to life "the Lord of him".
Jesus praised Thomas, sort of, because he FINALLY got it, but criticized him for lacking the faith to accept without seeing first.
Nonsense.
Really??
You don't believe Thomas' God raised Thomas' Lord??
Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Acts 17:30-31 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because He hath appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom He hath ordained; whereof He hath given assurance unto all men, in that He hath raised him from the dead.

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
 
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Dartman

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Jer. 23:24 "Can a man hide himself in hiding places So I do not see him?" declares the LORD "Do I not fill the heavens and the earth?" declares the LORD.

1 Kings 8:27 "But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain You, how much less this house which I have built!

Col. 1:17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

Matt 18:20 "For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst." (and on the throne?)

Isa. 57:15 For thus says the high and exalted One Who lives forever, whose name is Holy, "I dwell on a high and holy place, And also with the contrite and lowly of spirit In order to revive the spirit of the lowly And to revive the heart of the contrite.

Psa 139:7-10 Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there. If I take the wings of the morning, And dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, Even there Your hand shall lead me, And Your right hand shall hold me. (Right hand is used idiomatically as the power and presence of the Lord)

Pro 15:3 The eyes of the Lord are in every place, Keeping watch on the evil and the good.

Isa. 43:2 When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; And through the rivers, they shall not overflow you. When you walk through the fire, you shall not be burned, Nor shall the flame scorch you.

Amos 9:2-3 "Though they dig into hell, From there my hand shall take them; Though they climb up to heaven, From there I will bring them down; And though they hide themselves on top of Carmel, From there I will search and take them; Though they hide from My sight at the bottom of the sea, From there I will command the serpent, and it shall bite them;

Gen 28:15 Behold, I am with you and will keep you wherever you go, and will bring you back to this land; for I will not leave you until I have done what I have spoken to you." (While on the throne)

Enough verses for somebody to come away believing that God can be in all places at all times.
No, enough verses to come away believing that God is aware of all places at all times, and has power to reach all places at all times. The Verses I mentioned, Rev 21, Ex 33 and 34, Gen 3, Ex 20, Matt 6: ... all prove God IS in given locations, and LEAVES heaven to COME TO earth.
It is essential that we HARMONIZE Scripture, not pit Scripture against Scripture. We interpret ALL Scriptures as God's words.
Jehovah/YHVH God made mankind look like Him.
This matches the resemblances explained to us in visions, in Moses seeing Jehovah, in promises to SEE God as a reward, and statements that God is seen consistently by angels.
 
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GeorgeTwo

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Really??
You don't believe Thomas' God raised Thomas' Lord??
Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Acts 17:30-31 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because He hath appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom He hath ordained; whereof He hath given assurance unto all men, in that He hath raised him from the dead.

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Who raised Jesus from the dead?

God did:

"In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands...by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. (Colossians 2:11-12)

"He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God." (1 Peter 1:20-21)

"And God both raised up the Lord and will also raise us up by His power." (1 Corinthians 6:14)

"Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it." (Acts 2:23-24)

"But you denied the Holy One and the Just, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, and killed the Prince of life, whom God raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses." (Acts 3:14-15)

"But God raised Him from the dead. He was seen for many days by those who came up with Him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are His witnesses to the people. And we declare to you glad tidings -- that promise which was made to the fathers. God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus...And that He raised Him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, He has spoken thus: 'I will give you the sure mercies of David.'...For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell asleep, was buried with his fathers, and saw corruption; but He whom God raised up saw no corruption." (Acts 13:30-37)

"Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, make you complete in every good work to do His will..." (Hebrews 13:20-21)



Jesus did:



"Jesus answered and said to them, 'Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.' Then the Jews said, 'It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?' But He was speaking of the temple of His body. Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said." (John 2:19-22)

"Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father." (John 10:17-18)



The Holy Spirit did:



"But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you." (Romans 8:11)

"For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit..." (1 Peter 3:18)
 
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GeorgeTwo

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No, enough verses to come away believing that God is aware of all places at all times, and has power to reach all places at all times. The Verses I mentioned, Rev 21, Ex 33 and 34, Gen 3, Ex 20, Matt 6: ... all prove God IS in given locations, and LEAVES heaven to COME TO earth.
It is essential that we HARMONIZE Scripture, not pit Scripture against Scripture. We interpret ALL Scriptures as God's words.
Jehovah/YHVH God made mankind look like Him.
This matches the resemblances explained to us in visions, in Moses seeing Jehovah, in promises to SEE God as a reward, and statements that God is seen consistently by angels.

Jeremiah 23:24
Proverbs 15:3
1 Kings 8:27
Acts 17:24
Colossians 1:17
Matthew 18:20
Isaiah 57:15
Hebrews 4:12
Psalm 139:3
Psalm 139:5
Psalm 139:7-10

Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? If I ascend to heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there. If I take the wings of the dawn, If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea, Isaiah 66:1
Jeremiah 23:23-24

"Am I a God who is near," declares the LORD, "And not a God far off? "Can a man hide himself in hiding places So I do not see him?" declares the LORD "Do I not fill the heavens and the earth?" declares the LORD.

Psalm 113:4-6

The LORD is high above all nations; His glory is above the heavens. Who is like the LORD our God, Who is enthroned on high, Who humbles Himself to behold The things that are in heaven and in the earth?

God's Omnipresence

18 Bible verses about God's Omnipresence

G-d is Incorporeal
Although many places in scripture and Talmud speak of various parts of G-d's body (the Hand of G-d, G-d's wings, etc.) or speak of G-d in anthropomorphic terms (G-d walking in the garden of Eden, G-d laying tefillin, etc.), Judaism firmly maintains that G-d has no body. Any reference to G-d's body is simply a figure of speech, a means of making G-d's actions more comprehensible to beings living in a material world. Much of Rambam's Guide for the Perplexed is devoted to explaining each of these anthropomorphic references and proving that they should be understood figuratively.

We are forbidden to represent G-d in a physical form. That is considered idolatry. The sin of the Golden Calf incident was not that the people chose another deity, but that they tried to represent G-d in a physical form.

G-d is Omnipresent
G-d is in all places at all times. He fills the universe and exceeds its scope. He is always near for us to call upon in need, and He sees all that we do. Closely tied in with this idea is the fact that G-d is universal. He is not just the G-d of the Jews; He is the G-d of all nations.

Judaism 101

 
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GeorgeTwo

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AMEN!!!

John 8:58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.


The key in interpreting what Jesus is saying in John 8:58 and other passages is the reaction of the Jews and how Jesus handled their reaction.


John 8:58 in context:


56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” 57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”


58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” 59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.[/QUOTE]


Notice a couple things here: First the Jews knew exactly what Jesus said because they picked up stones to kill Him. They were quite legalistic in the day and would not have stoned Jesus for claiming to be older than Moses. Second there were crackpots in the day that claimed to be god. Caesar was one. There no doubt many others but the Jews didn’t just go around stoning people who claimed to be god. They mostly just considered the source. The difference is Jesus actually claimed the personal name God gave Moses. The audience knew exactly what He said.


Jesus is identifying Himself so closely with the one true and living God that He can speak of Himself as being there 'before Abraham existed.' This is as close as we come on the lips of Jesus to a direct statement of what John says in his Prologue:


John 1:1-2:


1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.


Jesus speaks uses the divine name of the Father—I AM—the Holy name of God. If Jesus had wanted to claim only that He existed before Abraham, He would have said something like: "Before Abraham was, I was." But Jesus used the word, ego eimi. "Before Abraham was born, I am." There is no doubt in these verses. Jesus was claiming to be God. There are strong linguistic connections with verses in the Old Testament.


See Isaiah 41:4,

4 Who has performed and done it,

Calling the generations from the beginning?


'I, the LORD, am the first;

And with the last I am He.’”


and, Isaiah 43:13,


13 Indeed before the day was, I am He;

And there is no one who can deliver out of My hand;

I work, and who will reverse it?”


In addition Jesus was claiming superiority over Abraham.


John 5:16-19,16 For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. 17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.” 18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. 19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.


Jesus said he was equal to God. If the Jews misunderstood Him He made no effort to correct them. Something He would have been obligated to do.


John 10:30-33, I and My Father are one.”

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” 33 The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”


Again Jesus had an obligation to correct the thinking. Instead He scolded them for not believing His claim and had to escape once more.


Stoning was prescribed for blasphemy. (Leviticus 24:16, Mishnah Sanhedrin 7:4)


Comment by Carson (brackets and bold color added):

58. [. . .] Jesus [. . .]. If he had wanted to claim only that he existed before Abraham, it would have been simpler to say, ‘Before Abraham was, I was.’ Instead, bringing forward egō eimi found in verses 24, 28, Jesus says, ‘Before Abraham was born, I am.’ Whatever doubts may attach themselves to whether egō eimi should be taken absolutely in verses 24, 28, here there can be none. Moreover, the strong linguistic connections to Isaiah 40-55 are supported by obvious links: cf. ‘I, the Lord’ — with the first of them and the last — I am he’ (Isaiah 41:4); ‘Yes, and from ancient days I am he’ (Isaiah 43:13). Cf. Psalm 90:2. That the Jews take up stones to kill him presupposes they understand these words as some kind of blasphemous claim to deity. [. . .]

— D. A. Carson, The Gospel According to John (PNTC), page 358 (Eerdmans, 1991).


Comment by Bruce (brackets and bold color added):

8:57, 58 [. . .]

Jesus’ reply to their protest repeats the affirmation ‘I am He’ (egō eimi), used twice already in this chapter (verses 24, 28), and does so in a way which underlines the magnitude of the claim it expresses. He echoes the language of the God of Israel, who remains the same from everlasting to everlasting: ‘I, the Lord, the first and the last, I am He’ (Isaiah 41:4), How can a man who is ‘not yet fifty years old’ speak like that? Only if he speaks as the Word that had been with God from the beginning and was now incarnate on earth. Abraham looked forward to the time of his incarnation, but he himself existed before his incarnation, before Abraham was born (genesthai), before the worlds were made. The Word of the eternal God cannot be other than eternal. So much in this context is conveyed by egō eimi. And if we suppose that the conversation was carried on in Aramaic or even Hebrew, then Jesus could have uttered the very words ’ ani hu’ [אני היא], as though he were applying them to himself.

— F. F. Bruce, The Gospel of John: Introduction, Exposition, and Notes, pages 205-206 (Eerdmans, 1983).
 
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GeorgeTwo

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28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

1) The verse does NOT say; And Thomas called Jesus, My Lord and my God.
2) The CONTEXT establishes, Thomas had JUST accepted that his God had resurrected his Lord from the dead. It makes PERFECT sense that Thomas would praise both.

That is the literal reading of the Greek text:

. . . ο κυριος μου και ο θεος μου.

ο κυριος - the Lord
μου - of me
και - and
ο θεος - the God
μου - of me

Thomas addresses Jesus as both his Lord and his God. Jesus was Lord being the man and God being the Son (John 5:23-24; John 14:6, 9; 1 John 5:20; John 17:3).

Dartman, I have been reading your posts for some time now and I have come to the conclusion that you don't know what Trinitarianism teaches.

Now, is your chance to explain what you understand that Trinitarianism teaches.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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