What is the Age of Accountability?

Tangible said:

"Necessary" sounds like you see baptism as Law, not Gospel.

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Incorrect.

By necessary I mean that there is no worries for people who are not accountable for their actions, whether being an infant, a person who is mentally challenged, a person born with a physical handicap, or a person who has in any way shape or form, no chance of every reaching the mental capacity to understand and comprehend right, wrong and the need for salvation.

The humans in this category are not held to the same, or any consequence as those who fully understand that they have done wrong and sinned and therefore held to the gospel account for salvation.

Furthermore, of what benefit is it to baptize someone who has no concept of what a baptism is or represents.... other than appeasing those doing the baptism in order to comply with some concept of men.

Tangible said:

And there is no "age of accountability" because all mankind fell in Adam's fall.

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When you say that:

"there is no "age of accountability" because all mankind fell in Adam's fall."

That an infant would damned if it were not baptized?

That children who cannot even understand that a wood stove is hot and not to touch it, or deep lake is going to kill them, or that if you pick a cat up by the tail, it will scratch you...... that children or even mentally incapable adults of this limited cognizance... would be held accountable, by a loving God, for things they cannot even be aware of, and therefore damned?

OR, heaven forbid, if they are born into a family where the parents neglect to have them baptized, they will face the wrath of God.....

Tangible said:

I certainly hope this is true, but scripture just doesn't consistently speak this way. Why not simply take God at his sure and certain word and bring your babies to him to receive all the gifts God has promised to give in Holy Baptism?

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Even before the Death, burial and resurection of our savior, in the times of the law... David had a son who was sick and dying. He prayed and wore sack cloth and ashes for the health of this child to return.... he moped around and mourned...

Yet, at the death of the boy, he rejoiced. God had not answered his prayers but his son was with God. Proof of this is in Davids explanation for his sudden change in emotions:

2 Samuel 12:22-23King James Version (KJV)

22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether God will be gracious to me, that the child may live?


23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

Tangible said:

I can't imagine ever telling parents that. How awful! But equally awful is to tell them to withhold all the gifts God promises to give them through Holy Baptism!

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Well, people I know were told this exact line. They never entered a church again.

All that happens in infant baptism is the child gets a wet forehead and the parents have a false sense of security for the child's eternal home.

Not until the child grows older and reaches an age where it can comprehend it's actions. At that point in time, the child will have to decide for itself...

Nobody on this earth can do anything, in any sprinkle, baptism, ramble of words or whatever, to save the soul of another.

Everyone will be judged on the choice they made..........all.....by.......themselves.

Tangible said:

By this statement:

This is the whole topic of this thread........ there is an age, or level of mental competency, at which a person becomes aware of the wrong that they are doing. At this point, and not before, they become responsible for their sins or wrong doings and need to seek their savior.

you seem to be saying that there are certain prerequisites to salvation, that God requires us to have certain abilities or to perform certain mental acts before he will grant us salvation. I think you would be hard pressed to find justification for this belief in scripture. Again, you seem to be coming at not just baptism but salvation in general as law, law, law, law. That's hardly good news!

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Not at all. What I am saying is that before you reach a state of mental competency you are saved............ point blank.

You have eternal life, you are innocent of your actions due to ignorance.

There is no need for acknowledgement of sins, repentance, asking for forgiveness, acknowledgement of Christ's substitutional death on the cross, resurrection or anything... this is simply due to the fact that God will not hold anyone accountable for things they cannot possibly comprehend.

Tangible said:

Since Decisionists like to use examples from the Old Testament regarding who was allowed to enter the Promised Land, I will ask you some other Old Testament questions:

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Question:
Did God spare the children of the Canaanites from being killed along with the rest of their tribes? (Deuteronomy 7:1-6) Was he neutral toward the infants and children of the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites?

Answer:
The children would have eternal life... anyone who had not reached a state of mental capacity to understand sin or right and wrong.

Question:
Did he instruct the Israelites to spare the children and bring them along with them into the Promised Land?

Answer:No

Question:
Do you think the children of the Canaanites were any more guilty or sinful than any other children before or since? Or any less?

Answer:No

What do you think happened to the children of the Canaanites after they were killed by the Israelites? Were they given a place in Abraham's Bosom like the children of Israel who believed the promises of God, or were they condemned with all the others of their tribes? If so, why?

Answer:Yes... due to not being accountable.

Now, let me add a twist to these situations.

There are many who have studied the times and people of the pre flood and post flood eras. From there findings and there teachings I have come to a belief in why these women and children were not spared as was typical in war times.

You can investigate this for yourself, but you probably won't.

The reason is simple but controversial because it goes into details and facts of these times that people have a hard time accepting.

This reason is.... before the flood..."all flesh was corrupted" except Noah, his wife and three sons. Noah and his family were clean and pure human DNA.

Noah picked three wives for his sons. They were NOT of pure DNA.

Without getting to technical, with the curse of Ham's son, this impure DNA rears it's ugly head again and thus we get Nimrod, the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites.

These were remnants of the pre flood "corruption of all flesh" and God was ending each bloodline and, most importantly, did not want the Israelite's to take them as wives and corrupt the bloodline to Christ. Period.

Now, I have not looked any deeper BUT..... if these people were, in fact, Nephilim... they were not pure human DNA and may not of even had the option of salvation.

Like I said, you can research this for yourself and you will find that nephilim were hybrids had no chance for redemption. The souls of dead nephilim is where demons come from..

This would then mean that no woman or child would have had the opportunity for salvation anyway.

jimmyjimmy said:

I don't know what that means.

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You said it in your previous statement and I don't know to who, what you were referring.

Tangible said:

Yikes! That's a pretty scary doctrine. Sounds like Law to me!

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How so?

It's pretty clear in the gospel that everyone needs to accept Christ as their savior.
It's pretty clear that Christ has payed for their sins and they are bought with His blood.
It's also very clear that if you reject the fact that He is your savior and that He is the way, the truth and the life..... you are not saved.

So, tell me how someone who has reached an age, any age, where they have the mental capacity to understand sin, the gospel, right and wrong, the need for forgiveness and repentance....

How is someone at this point going to enter heaven if they die, unsaved?

JacksBratt said:

Incorrect.

By necessary I mean that there is no worries for people who are not accountable for their actions, whether being an infant, a person who is mentally challenged, a person born with a physical handicap, or a person who has in any way shape or form, no chance of every reaching the mental capacity to understand and comprehend right, wrong and the need for salvation.

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The thing is, scripture doesn't ever tie accountability (coram deo) or salvation to being able to comprehend right from wrong. Salvation is determined by whether or not you have been given the gift of faith in the promises of God as fulfilled by Jesus Christ.

The humans in this category are not held to the same, or any consequence as those who fully understand that they have done wrong and sinned and therefore held to the gospel account for salvation.

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See above. You seem to be confusing righteousness coram hominubus with righteousness coram deo. Big difference.

Furthermore, of what benefit is it to baptize someone who has no concept of what a baptism is or represents.... other than appeasing those doing the baptism in order to comply with some concept of men.

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As I said earlier, and actually gave a short list of the benefits of baptism, there are no prerequisites or qualifications in scripture for who can receive God's gift of Holy Baptism. Let the little children come unto him and do not prevent them.

JacksBratt said:

When you say that:

"there is no "age of accountability" because all mankind fell in Adam's fall."

That an infant would damned if it were not baptized?

That children who cannot even understand that a wood stove is hot and not to touch it, or deep lake is going to kill them, or that if you pick a cat up by the tail, it will scratch you...... that children or even mentally incapable adults of this limited cognizance... would be held accountable, by a loving God, for things they cannot even be aware of, and therefore damned?

OR, heaven forbid, if they are born into a family where the parents neglect to have them baptized, they will face the wrath of God.....

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You're doing that law thing again.

That God gives amazing, wonderful, precious gifts through Holy Baptism is undeniable from the scriptures. Why would you want deny these gifts to your dear children?

JacksBratt said:

Even before the Death, burial and resurection of our savior, in the times of the law...

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Do you mean that you believe that obedience to the law ever saved anyone? Salvation has always been by faith in the promises of God as fulfilled in Jesus Christ, the Messiah.

The Law only ever proved anyone just, and that was by the perfect, sinless obedience of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

David had a son who was sick and dying. He prayed and wore sack cloth and ashes for the health of this child to return.... he moped around and mourned...

Yet, at the death of the boy, he rejoiced. God had not answered his prayers but his son was with God. Proof of this is in Davids explanation for his sudden change in emotions:

2 Samuel 12:22-23King James Version (KJV)

22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether God will be gracious to me, that the child may live?


23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

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Do you think in all of his praying, fasting and interceding David had ever sung or spoken God's word in the presence of his son? In the same way as today, there is a certain amount of hope we can draw from God's promise to save whom he desires to be saved by acting through his word. Faith came by hearing and hearing by the word of God in David's time just as it does today.

JacksBratt said:

Well, people I know were told this exact line. They never entered a church again.

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That is very sad if true. Whoever said that will certainly have to give an account on the day of reckoning.

All that happens in infant baptism is the child gets a wet forehead and the parents have a false sense of security for the child's eternal home.

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I would hardly call believing God's word and his promises as revealed in Holy Scripture a "false sense of security." How more secure can your child be than safely in the arms of Christ?

Not until the child grows older and reaches an age where it can comprehend it's actions. At that point in time, the child will have to decide for itself...

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Well sure. Any Christian at any time can choose to reject the gifts God has given them in Holy Baptism, deny Christ and make a shipwreck of their faith. Apostasy is a sad but very real possibility.

Nobody on this earth can do anything, in any sprinkle, baptism, ramble of words or whatever, to save the soul of another.

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That's right. No work of man can save, including any act of the will or any decisions we might make. God, however, has attached his word and promises to certain outward signs, among them Holy Baptism. God acts through the hands of his body on Earth, the Church, to baptize, to preach, to write, to commune ... all these things, when done in connection and in combination with the word of God are effective to achieve that which God has promised to achieve through them. God's word does not return void but accomplishes the purpose for which he sends it.

Everyone will be judged on the choice they made..........all.....by.......themselves.

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True, and we will all be found wanting. For those who have been given the gift of faith in Christ, however, all of our choices will be forgiven and justified, not because of any merit or worthiness in us, but solely because of Christ alone.

JacksBratt said:

Not at all. What I am saying is that before you reach a state of mental competency you are saved............ point blank.

You have eternal life, you are innocent of your actions due to ignorance.

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This is doctrine is unsupported by scripture.

There is no need for acknowledgement of sins, repentance, asking for forgiveness, acknowledgement of Christ's substitutional death on the cross, resurrection or anything...

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These are all gifts given by God to those whom he is saving.

this is simply due to the fact that God will not hold anyone accountable for things they cannot possibly comprehend.

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Attempting to locate in scripture .......... Not found.

JacksBratt said:

How so?

It's pretty clear in the gospel that everyone needs to accept Christ as their savior.

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There you go with that law thing again. No one can accept Christ as their Savior except through the power of the Holy Spirit. And no one receives the Holy Spirit unless he is given them by God.

You simply can't be justified by God by an act of your fallen will. It's scripturally impossible.

It's pretty clear that Christ has payed for their sins and they are bought with His blood.
It's also very clear that if you reject the fact that He is your savior and that He is the way, the truth and the life..... you are not saved.

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No quibbles here.

So, tell me how someone who has reached an age, any age, where they have the mental capacity to understand sin, the gospel, right and wrong, the need for forgiveness and repentance....

How is someone at this point going to enter heaven if they die, unsaved?

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Well, they won't. If God has not saved them, they are not saved. That seems pretty simple to me. But age and ability of the individual don't enter into the equation. God is both just and the justifier of one who has faith in Jesus. We don't justify ourselves. We CAN'T justify ourselves.

Tangible said:

This is doctrine is unsupported by scripture.

These are all gifts given by God to those whom he is saving.

Attempting to locate in scripture .......... Not found.

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So, you are saying that an infant, young child or mentally challenged person, who cannot feed themself, go to the washroom, bathe themselves or whatever... that these people would be damned if not for the action of some other person?
That these poor souls would be lost if they happened to be in the care of some negligent care giver who did not baptize them or carry out some ritual to save their sous?

What actually has to take place for a 6 month old infant to attain eternal life if it were to die?

If a child suffers from autism and cannot even walk, talk or feed themselves.... what is it that has to occur to assure their salvation?

Tangible said:

There you go with that law thing again. No one can accept Christ as their Savior except through the power of the Holy Spirit. And no one receives the Holy Spirit unless he is given them by God.

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So, it is not a conscious choice that I made to accept Christ? It was the Holy spirit controlling me?

JacksBratt said:

So, you are saying that an infant, young child or mentally challenged person, who cannot feed themself, go to the washroom, bathe themselves or whatever... that these people would be damned if not for the action of some other person?

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Law again. God has graciously ordained that his promises of forgiveness of sins, eternal life and salvation may be given through the means of the application of water connected with the commandment and the Word of God. He has charged his Church with being his body on earth to preach his Gospel and administer his Sacraments. Jesus told his disciples, the beginning of his Church, “The one who hears you hears me, and the one who rejects you rejects me, and the one who rejects me rejects him who sent me.” And also, "If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld."

That these poor souls would be lost if they happened to be in the care of some negligent care giver who did not baptize them or carry out some ritual to save their sous?

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Well, if you are referring to permitting them to hear the Gospel as "ritual" then sadly, yes, as far as we know from scripture. Of course, God may save whom he will.

What actually has to take place for a 6 month old infant to attain eternal life if it were to die?

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According to scripture, we can have full assurance of such a child's salvation when they are baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

If a child suffers from autism and cannot even walk, talk or feed themselves.... what is it that has to occur to assure their salvation?

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According to scripture, we can have full assurance of such a child's salvation when they are baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

Tangible said:

Law again. God has graciously ordained that his promises of forgiveness of sins, eternal life and salvation may be given through the means of the application of water connected with the commandment and the Word of God.

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Jesus’ teaching about judgement is all about our lives. How do we accept that and still not be legalists.

Jesus says a number of things to deemphasize legalism:

• Judgement seems to be based on overall quality of life. None of his examples of judgement involve someone violating rules, but people having lives that are useless or even negative in how they impact others.
• Jesus emphasizes forgiveness.

If legalism means counting violations of the law, Jesus isn’t legalist. But if legalism includes any examination of a person’s life, then I think Jesus is legalist.

As far as I can tell, Jesus teaches that God accepts us unconditionally. That’s justification by faith, more or les. But he expects us to respond, and will hold us accountable. Hence, as I’ve noted before, justification by faith but judgement by works. Though I really don't think "works" is a good term for this.

Tangible said:

The thing about your position that infants and children have not done anything wrong, nor have failed to do anything good, seems to miss one of the main points of Matthew 25: Those who did good were unaware that they had done good, and those who had failed to do good were also unaware of their failure.

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Remember, my position is that we aren't condemned for individual sins, but for a life that's worthless or even damaging to others. I doubt that an infant can be judged on that basis. Furthermore, if you assume what many say, that hell is in some sense self-chosen, then it's the result of someone who is so hardened that even when faced with God they can't repent. It's unlikely that many children are that way. It's not the age exactly. I don't think there's a magic age. But I think becoming really hell-bound takes time.

However I have to say that I'm not quite as convinced about children as most Reformed writers are. For adults, you can really only judge their lives in retrospect. You can see how someone's life led to where they ended up. The initial movement in the direction towards hell could have been quite early. I think it's conceivable that God judges children on the basis of where their current character would lead.