What is the Age of Accountability?

[Tangible]

We are born with a sinful nature, due to Adams sin.

True.

Baptism cannot forgive anything.

But God can and does promise to act through baptism to forgive sins.

Only Christ can forgive and He will only forgive if asked.

This presupposes abilities that are not stipulated in scripture. It CAN happen that way, but it doesn't have to happen that way. This is a law-based doctrine of forgiveness. If we are required to do anything in order to be forgiven, then it depends on us and not on God.

How can a child ask for forgiveness when they don't even know what it is.

Show me in scripture where this is an absolute requirement to be forgiven. I submit that if God is the giver of gifts, the granter of forgiveness, he may forgive whomever he pleases, especially those whom he has promised to forgive, such as his baptized children.

David made it clear that children go to heaven.

David made it clear only that he believed that he would be reunited with his son after death. There is no indication at all that he is speaking of all children, in all times and in all places. You are reading that into the text.

There is no need to baptize your baby.

So you would withhold from a precious child the gifts God stands ready to give through baptism? Why would a loving parent do that? And why rob the parents the comfort and assurance that their child is safely in the arms of Jesus if, God forbid, their child should die at a young age?

Why attempt to substitute mere speculation and unscriptural notions for the sure and certain promises of God? I really don't understand how someone could do that.

When it gets older it will make it's own choice.

Why wait? God is ready to bring your child into his family at any age.

Nothing you can do in it's infancy will save it from condemnation if, when it is mature, it denies Christ.

This, sadly, is true.

 

[98cwitr]

I'll just let St Paul answer this one. Here Paul, you can use my keyboard right here.

Thanks, John. This is Paul. In my letter to the Romans, I wrote the following ...

Romans 5
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I was thinking of that exact chapter when I asked the question

Let me ask differently: We all can agree that through Adam sin entered the world, and through him we are all born sinful. My question is; is the sins we commit early on (original sin) Adam's or our own sin?

 

[JacksBratt]

Jacksbratt Said: Baptism cannot forgive anything.

Tangible Said: But God can and does promise to act through baptism to forgive sins.

Scripture please.

 

[98cwitr]

Scripture please.

John 3 pretty much covers water baptism vs Spirit baptism. I assume some folks consider them one and the same, and they would be mistaken.

 

[JacksBratt]

JacksBratt Said: Only Christ can forgive and He will only forgive if asked.

Tangible Said: This presupposes abilities that are not stipulated in scripture. It CAN happen that way, but it doesn't have to happen that way. This is a law-based doctrine of forgiveness. If we are required to do anything in order to be forgiven, then it depends on us and not on God.

What abilities are not stipulated in scripture?

What other way can it happen? A human is aware of their sin and desires to have salvation, so, they ask and it is given unto them.

What does depend on us is the ASKING. If we do not desire or believe we need forgiveness..... we will not ask. Salvation is free but is only given to those who request it.

 

[JacksBratt]

John 3 pretty much covers water baptism vs Spirit baptism. I assume some folks consider them one and the same, and they would be mistaken.

I'm looking for scripture that says that Baptism forgives.

 

[98cwitr]

What abilities are not stipulated in scripture?

What other way can it happen? A human is aware of their sin and desires to have salvation, so, they ask and it is given unto them.

What does depend on us is the ASKING. If we do not desire or believe we need forgiveness..... we will not ask. Salvation is free but is only given to those who request it.

Keep going though...we have to understand where the desire comes from (see John 6).

 

[98cwitr]

I'm looking for scripture that says that Baptism forgives.

Mark 1:4
And so John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

Luke 3:3
He went into all the country around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

Acts 2:38
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Water baptism shows a public profession of repentance. It's not the baptism that forgives, but the repentance done in faith. There's plenty of example in Scripture where Jesus says "Your faith has healed you" and "repent, for the kingdom is near." It is the Spirit that grants the change of heart and urges our desires from worldly ways to righteousness (Ezekiel 36, Jeremiah 31)...and thus us unto salvation.

 

[JacksBratt]

JacksBratt Said: How can a child ask for forgiveness when they don't even know what it is.

Tangible said: Show me in scripture where this is an absolute requirement to be forgiven. I submit that if God is the giver of gifts, the granter of forgiveness, he may forgive whomever he pleases, especially those whom he has promised to forgive, such as his baptized children.

Firstly, the question I asked is rhetorical.... How is it possible to ask for something you are oblivious to?

For us to ask for forgiveness we must confess them first.. A child is incapable of doing either.

"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9).

 

[JacksBratt]

. It's not the baptism that forgives, but the repentance done in faith.

Exactly.

 

[JacksBratt]

David made it clear only that he believed that he would be reunited with his son after death. There is no indication at all that he is speaking of all children, in all times and in all places. You are reading that into the text.

In order for what you say to be true, David would have had to be wrong in what he said. The bible would be teaching a false hope and contradiction of truth.

David was a man after God's own heart. He knew very well that his son was in paradise.

Scripture like this is not a "one off" where Davids son gets a pass and yours and mine don't.

 

[JacksBratt]

So you would withhold from a precious child the gifts God stands ready to give through baptism? Why would a loving parent do that? And why rob the parents the comfort and assurance that their child is safely in the arms of Jesus if, God forbid, their child should die at a young age?

Oh you can sprinkle some water on the infants head if you want. Chant some religious words. Eat some tiny sandwiches and go home believing that you just saved the soul of your infant....if you want.

However, this notion puts the salvation of the infant into the hands of a third party. It also condemns other children due to the lack of action of other parents or guardians. That's not how it works.
Ezekiel 18:20


The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.


I cannot, by any works of my own, save my own soul.... How in the world am I going to do anything to save the soul of someone else?

I simply cannot.

Oh, it would be nice... line up all the infants as they are born in every hospital and baptize them before they leave.......VOILA...... a nation of children bound for glory.... how robotic...

Not only that, but you would have some false hope that these children are going to grow up and follow the Lord. Wonderful.... no crime, no evil..... perfect.... but not realistic.

 

[JacksBratt]

Why wait? God is ready to bring your child into his family at any age.

Sorry, I cannot, like I said, do any works or acts or anything to save my own soul. How can I do anything to save my infant or mentally deficient child or friend?

Every soul conceived will have to account for their decisions on this issue. Mommy and Daddy will not enter the equation.

Romans 14:12King James Version (KJV)

12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

 

[Tangible]

I was thinking of that exact chapter when I asked the question

Let me ask differently: We all can agree that through Adam sin entered the world, and through him we are all born sinful. My question is; is the sins we commit early on (original sin) Adam's or our own sin?

We are born in a fallen state, a sinful state. We don't have to sin to be sinners. Actual sin is merely the rotten fruit of our natural state. Eventually it comes out.

Theologians have long used the latin phrase incurvatus in se to describe man's natural state. It is fallen man's nature to be curved in upon himself. From the moment we are conceived we are only concerned about our own needs, our own perceptions, our own desires. From the moment we encounter the outside world, we demand attention, demand to be fed, demand to be held.

These are basic human needs, and we can hardly be blamed for giving voice to them, but we are unconcerned and unaware of the burdens we place on our poor, weary parents. Our needs are all we are concerned about, all we are aware of, all we care about. As we develop through the various stages of life, this condition shows itself in different, age appropriate ways. Suffice to say that the condition which leads a toddler to throw a temper tantrum is the same condition that leads a teenager to press his girlfriend for the opportunity to go just to that next base, the young father to stretch the truth or conveniently forget the facts when it means he can make his quota for the month, or the condition that leads the elder to make just a couple of adjustments on their income statement so that they can qualify for better health insurance coverage.

If we think of our sinfulness as our fallen nature it becomes easier to see how it is not our individual sins alone for which Christ died, but for a state of being that according to St Paul is integral to our fleshly bodies that we have inherited from our first father Adam.

 

[JacksBratt]

JacksBratt Said: Nothing you can do in it's infancy will save it from condemnation if, when it is mature, it denies Christ.

Tangible said: This, sadly, is true.

So are saying that God lied when He said:

John 10:28King James Version (KJV)

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

This action of Baptism as an infant was temporary?
No, it's not even valid at all.

 

[Tangible]

Scripture please.

Acts 2:38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 22:16 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.

These are two just off the top of my head.

 

[Tangible]

Water baptism shows a public profession of repentance. It's not the baptism that forgives, but the repentance done in faith.

Where does repentance come from? Is it something that we produce in and of ourselves, or is repentance, like faith, a gift given by God? (Hint: 2 Timothy 2:24–26, Acts 11:18, Lamentations 5:21)

God has tied specific promises to Holy Baptism. Among these are justification, sanctification, the giving of the Holy Spirit, and the forgiveness of sins.

God freely pours out his gifts upon those whom he is saving. Who are we to attempt to limit God in how he gives his precious gifts?

There's plenty of example in Scripture where Jesus says "Your faith has healed you" and "repent, for the kingdom is near." It is the Spirit that grants the change of heart and urges our desires from worldly ways to righteousness (Ezekiel 36, Jeremiah 31)...and thus us unto salvation.

While we certainly should strive to increase in righteousness before men, this is not the righteousness that saves us. Our righteousness will always be incomplete, filthy rags before a Holy God. The only righteousness that saves us is the perfect, alien righteousness of Jesus Christ imputed to us when we are joined with Christ by grace through God's gift of saving faith.

 

[Tangible]

Oh you can sprinkle some water on the infants head if you want. Chant some religious words. Eat some tiny sandwiches and go home believing that you just saved the soul of your infant....if you want.

Gee, thanks for your permission to have faith in the promises of Our God, however you might attempt to denigrate it.

However, this notion puts the salvation of the infant into the hands of a third party.

Which third party? The party of the body of Christ on earth? The party charged by Our Lord with making disciples by baptizing and teaching? The party charged with preaching the Gospel to all the world? Are you referring, perhaps, to the Church of Jesus Christ?

It also condemns other children due to the lack of action of other parents or guardians. That's not how it works.

If you insist on applying a law definition of baptism, please make it clear that this is your own idea, and one quite different from the way the scriptures speak of baptism as a saving work of God.

Ezekiel 18:20

The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

This verse is often used in an attempt to discredit the doctrine of original sin, which you defended earlier. Obviously from context, this passage is speaking of civil punishment, of society exercising authority over the individual, not the economy of salvation.

How tragic if the perfect righteousness won by Our Lord Jesus Christ was only for himself and not for the propitiation of the sins of the world! If Christ's righteousness is not imputed to us, we are doomed because our measly attempts at righteousness fall infinitely short of God's perfect standard.

I cannot, by any works of my own, save my own soul.... How in the world am I going to do anything to save the soul of someone else?

I simply cannot.

Then we must immediately stop preaching, stop writing anything about the Gospel, stop speaking to our neighbors about Jesus Christ. If we cannot in any way participate in the salvation of another person, even as a messenger of the Gospel or a minister of his Sacraments, what are we doing when we go to church? We might as well all sleep in on Sunday mornings.

Oh, it would be nice... line up all the infants as they are born in every hospital and baptize them before they leave.......VOILA...... a nation of children bound for glory.... how robotic...

This would do little good if they would not be raised in a Christian home in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. The seed of faith planted through such a baptism would soon wither and die if not faithfully nourished by exposure to the word. Like I said earlier, baptism isn't a magic charm.

Not only that, but you would have some false hope that these children are going to grow up and follow the Lord. Wonderful.... no crime, no evil..... perfect.... but not realistic.

Not realistic indeed. Not a representation of my position at all. Please stop using strawmen arguments and address what I'm actually saying.

 

[Tangible]

So are saying that God lied when He said:

John 10:28King James Version (KJV)

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Your words, not mine. I was quoting your post.

And you seem to be confusing law and gospel again. The passage you quote is a gospel passage, but your are trying to apply it as law.

This action of Baptism as an infant was temporary?

No, it's not even valid at all.

As I have said several times, as clearly taught in scripture it is sadly possible for someone to apostatize after once having faith in Christ. It is irrelevant how they were first brought to faith.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I'm looking for scripture that says that Baptism forgives.

Acts 2:38

-CryptoLutheran