Women Pastors part 2
- Thread starter Sheep4Christ
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[Verse=Genesis 2:18-23,NRSV]Then the Lord God said, ‘It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper as his partner.’ So out of the ground the Lord God formed every animal of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. The man gave names to all cattle, and to the birds of the air, and to every animal of the field; but for the man there was not found a helper as his partner. So the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then he took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh. And the rib that the Lord God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man. Then the man said,
‘This at last is bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
this one shall be called Woman,
for out of Man this one was taken.’[/VERSE]
It would seem on the basis of what we are presented with in Scripture and tradition is the idea that the gender distinction was to do with the idea of community, relationship, unity and support, for a future and a reference point for our understanding of God who is more that unity and as we as Christians understand is indeed Trinity. Called to help and support one another, neither to Lord it over one another, nor to be slaves to one another.
[VERSE=Genesis 1:26-27,NRSV]Then God said, ‘Let us make humankind in our image, according to our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the wild animals of the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.’
So God created humankind in his image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them. [/VERSE]
The account in Genesis 1 makes it clearer in a way that this is a reflection of the nature of God which we carry, in the words of the text the image and likeness of God which we carry, some more brightly perhaps than others.
I don't think that this reflects a preoccupation with gender, and I am sorry if my earlier post caused you concern, however it was possibly a cry of frustration about this thread which seems to have banged on and on focused on distinction rather than unity in a way that I believe clouds the vision of God we may see in humanity and replacing that vision with what at times seems to me a thinly veiled male chauvinism.
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Once again, I am hearing a lot of opinion, conjecture, commentary, feelings, rationalizations, etc. And all based on human wisdom and understanding backed by emotional and experiential theology. Few quote scripture and some even say scripture is outdated and has no place in our modern society. How sad.
I believe in the God of the bible because I need someone solid to put my faith in who doesn't change with every whim and fancy of society. I can't put my faith in someone's god that fits what they believe god should be, because every time their mood changes so does their god.
My stance on scripture is that it all has to be true or none of it is true. If I can't trust every word of scripture I read, how can I trust any of it? How will I know what I can trust and what I can't?
Furthermore, if anyone can change scripture to fit their doctrine, scripture becomes nothing but sinking sand. Who am I going to trust to tell me what it really says - you, the Watch Tower, the TV preacher, who?
Finally, if true doctrine is different than what is stated clearly in scripture, God would have inspired those words to be written instead. When we allow experience and emotions to dictate doctrine we are doomed to failure.
Proverbs 14:12 (NKJV) 12 There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death.
Apparently this proverb was important enough to God to inspire Solomon to repeat it, word for word.
Proverbs 16:25 (NKJV) 25 There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death.
Proverbs 21:2 (NKJV) Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, But the Lord weighs the hearts.
Isaiah 55:8-11 (NKJV) 8 “For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord. 9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts. 10 “For as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven, and do not return there, but water the earth, and make it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower and bread to the eater, 11 so shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; it shall not return to Me void, but it shall accomplish what I please, and it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.
Deuteronomy 8:3 (NKJV) 3 So He humbled you, allowed you to hunger, and fed you with manna which you did not know nor did your fathers know, that He might make you know that man shall not live by bread alone; but man lives by every word that proceeds from the mouth of the Lord.
Isaiah 40:8 (NKJV) 8 "The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God stands forever.”
Malachi 3:6 (NKJV) 6 “For I am the Lord, I do not change; therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob.
Hebrews 13:8 (NKJV) 8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
Matthew 7:24-27 (NKJV) 24 “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: 25 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. 26 “But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.”
John 8:31-32 (NKJV) 31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
2 Timothy 4:1-4 (NKJV) 1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: 2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.
This prophecy is being fulfilled in the modern day Christian church.
2 Timothy 3:16-17 (NKJV) 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
2 Peter 1:20-21 (NKJV) 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
Scripture is not open to private interpretation. There is only one true interpretation of scripture. When scripture does not agree with what we want to believe, we can't make up an interpretation that suits us.
John 1:1 (NKJV) 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
So why am I so adamant about God's word? Because if we don't adhere to it we will perish, and because scripture says God does not give women the responsibility and position of being judged more harshly by being the head of a congregation or a teacher.
1 Timothy 3 (NKJV) 1 This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop, he desires a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; 3 not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; 4 one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence 5 (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); 6 not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
8 Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy for money, 9 holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience. 10 But let these also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons, being found blameless. 11 Likewise, their wives must be reverent, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things. 12 Let deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. 13 For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
A pastor (priest, minister, bishop, elder, overseer, etc., let's not get caught up in semantics) or deacon is to be a man, not a woman. If God had intended it to be either a man or a woman He would have inspired that to be written. He didn't.
1 Timothy 2:11-12 (NKJV) 11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. 12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.
1 Corithians 11:3 (NKJV) 3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
There are many other scriptures, going all the way back to Genesis, that give us clear direction from God what our roles are to be while on this earth. Men are to provide for, protect, and love their wives as Christ loves the church and gave Himself for her. Wives are to respect and support their husbands and be examples of how the church is to submit to Christ. Anyone who is born of God knows that both of these roles are huge and neither is better or worse than the other. They're just different.
Someday we will be in heaven where there is no male or female, but until that day comes it should be our desire to fulfill the roles God has given us as unto Him.
Numbers 6:24-26
I believe in the God of the bible because I need someone solid to put my faith in who doesn't change with every whim and fancy of society. I can't put my faith in someone's god that fits what they believe god should be, because every time their mood changes so does their god.
My stance on scripture is that it all has to be true or none of it is true. If I can't trust every word of scripture I read, how can I trust any of it? How will I know what I can trust and what I can't?
Furthermore, if anyone can change scripture to fit their doctrine, scripture becomes nothing but sinking sand. Who am I going to trust to tell me what it really says - you, the Watch Tower, the TV preacher, who?
Finally, if true doctrine is different than what is stated clearly in scripture, God would have inspired those words to be written instead. When we allow experience and emotions to dictate doctrine we are doomed to failure.
Proverbs 14:12 (NKJV) 12 There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death.
Apparently this proverb was important enough to God to inspire Solomon to repeat it, word for word.
Proverbs 16:25 (NKJV) 25 There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death.
Proverbs 21:2 (NKJV) Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, But the Lord weighs the hearts.
Isaiah 55:8-11 (NKJV) 8 “For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord. 9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts. 10 “For as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven, and do not return there, but water the earth, and make it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower and bread to the eater, 11 so shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; it shall not return to Me void, but it shall accomplish what I please, and it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.
Deuteronomy 8:3 (NKJV) 3 So He humbled you, allowed you to hunger, and fed you with manna which you did not know nor did your fathers know, that He might make you know that man shall not live by bread alone; but man lives by every word that proceeds from the mouth of the Lord.
Isaiah 40:8 (NKJV) 8 "The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God stands forever.”
Malachi 3:6 (NKJV) 6 “For I am the Lord, I do not change; therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob.
Hebrews 13:8 (NKJV) 8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
Matthew 7:24-27 (NKJV) 24 “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: 25 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. 26 “But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.”
John 8:31-32 (NKJV) 31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
2 Timothy 4:1-4 (NKJV) 1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: 2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.
This prophecy is being fulfilled in the modern day Christian church.
2 Timothy 3:16-17 (NKJV) 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
2 Peter 1:20-21 (NKJV) 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
Scripture is not open to private interpretation. There is only one true interpretation of scripture. When scripture does not agree with what we want to believe, we can't make up an interpretation that suits us.
John 1:1 (NKJV) 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
So why am I so adamant about God's word? Because if we don't adhere to it we will perish, and because scripture says God does not give women the responsibility and position of being judged more harshly by being the head of a congregation or a teacher.
1 Timothy 3 (NKJV) 1 This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop, he desires a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; 3 not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; 4 one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence 5 (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); 6 not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
8 Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy for money, 9 holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience. 10 But let these also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons, being found blameless. 11 Likewise, their wives must be reverent, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things. 12 Let deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. 13 For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
A pastor (priest, minister, bishop, elder, overseer, etc., let's not get caught up in semantics) or deacon is to be a man, not a woman. If God had intended it to be either a man or a woman He would have inspired that to be written. He didn't.
1 Timothy 2:11-12 (NKJV) 11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. 12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.
1 Corithians 11:3 (NKJV) 3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
There are many other scriptures, going all the way back to Genesis, that give us clear direction from God what our roles are to be while on this earth. Men are to provide for, protect, and love their wives as Christ loves the church and gave Himself for her. Wives are to respect and support their husbands and be examples of how the church is to submit to Christ. Anyone who is born of God knows that both of these roles are huge and neither is better or worse than the other. They're just different.
Someday we will be in heaven where there is no male or female, but until that day comes it should be our desire to fulfill the roles God has given us as unto Him.
Numbers 6:24-26
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^ So, the usual stuff. "I disagree with you, so I'm going to malign your character," is how I read the above.
Because disagreeing with you must mean people are following flawed human wisdom, emotional, unBiblical, and all the rest of it. It couldn't possibly be that we could disagree with integrity.
Because disagreeing with you must mean people are following flawed human wisdom, emotional, unBiblical, and all the rest of it. It couldn't possibly be that we could disagree with integrity.
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But people in this thread have cited scripture in support of the view that women can be pastors. You apparently just want to ignore that. The Bible tells us that in Christ there is neither male nor female. The Old Testament tells us that Deborah was a judge and a prophetess. The New Testaments tells us that Mary was the first to preach the Good News of the risen Christ, that Phoebe was a deacon and Junia was an apostle.
You are, of course, entitled to your own interpretation.
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Is not your response the very thing you accuse me of doing?
This is supposed to be a Christian forum. Without scripture we cannot even discuss the issue. I quoted scripture, and, again, you retort with an emotional response.
Paul told Timothy in 2 Timothy 4 (NKJV) 2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.
The doctrine of the Christian church for 1800 years was that women are not allowed to be pastors. But as Paul's prophecy states, the time will come when they will not put up with sound doctrine. That time came when women, rather than embracing their role in God's plan, started rebelling against the word of God and demanded to be the same as men.
Kind of reminds me of what happened in the Garden of Eden when Eve wanted to be like God. How well did that work out for her? That didn't work so now she wants to be like man.
Your quarrel is not with me it's with the word of God. At some point in your Christian life you're going to have to accept the fact that God does establish absolutes. You can either accept them and be blessed or you can deny them and pay the price.
1 Timothy 2:11-12 (NKJV) 11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. 12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.
What part of this scripture do you not understand? A pastor must be able to teach. This scripture makes it clear that a woman is not to teach. A pastor must be able to exercise authority over his congregation. This scripture makes it clear a woman is not to have authority over a man. A pastor is called upon to preach. This scripture makes it clear a woman is to remain silent.
1 Timothy 3 (NKJV) 1 This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop, he desires a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; 3 not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; 4 one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence 5 (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); 6 not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
All of the references in this scripture is to a man. If God had wanted women to be included He would have inspired Paul to write that. He didn't. The "he" referred to in this scripture must be the "husband" of one wife. A woman cannot be a husband, etc. etc. etc.
If you want to disagree with God you certainly can do that, but in my opinion it's rather foolish.
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I want to thank you for having the integrity to present scripture as support for your position concerning women being pastors.
However, I believe you have done exactly what you accuse me of doing. You have completely ignored the scripture that I quoted in 1 Timothy chapters 2 and 3, and 1 Corinthians chapter 11. These scriptures are clear and definitive that only men can be ordained as a pastor or deacon, as well as placing restrictions on women teaching, having authority over a man, and being silent, which clearly precludes them from being a pastor.
Scripture cannot contradict scripture. Yet you seem intent on finding something you can hold up as a contradiction to scripture that clearly establishes God's doctrine that only men can be pastors.
The scriptures you mentioned as supporting women being pastors have nothing to do with women being pastors.
John 20:18 (NKJV) 18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that He had spoken these things to her.
Where do you see anything about Mary Magdalene being an apostle. She did what you would expect her to do after seeing and talking to the risen Lord. But this has nothing to do with her having the authority of an apostle and certainly has nothing to do with her being a priest, which would be the equivalent in that day of a pastor today.
Romans 16:1 (NKJV) 1 I commend to you Phoebe our sister, who is a servant of the church in Cenchrea, 2 that you may receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints, and assist her in whatever business she has need of you; for indeed she has been a helper of many and of myself also.
The reference to Phoebe is to a servant and helper in the church, not to a deacon and definitely not to a pastor. There are many women in the church today who are indispensable to the church but that doesn't make them pastors. I see nothing in this scripture that refers to Phoebe as a pastor.
Junia who is mentioned in the bible only once, in Romans 16:7 (NKJV) 7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my countrymen and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
This person was considered to be a man in the writings of the early church fathers, and though this scripture says this person was of note among the apostles, that doesn't mean this person was an apostle. You or I could be highly regarded among the board of deacons of our church, but that would not make us a deacon. A first grade student in elementary school could be of note among the teachers, but that would not make him a teacher.
The equality spoken of by Paul in Galatians 3:28 does not say anything about women being pastors. It is simply stating that everyone can be born of God and become a part of the body of Christ.
God did not say in His word that He wanted women as well as men to be pastors or deacons. If that's what He wanted He would have said so. He didn't! Instead He made a definite distinction between the roles of men and women and made it clear He does not want women to be pastors.
Of course you can believe whatever you want to. Everyone has free will to choose.
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No, Scripture can't contradict Scripture. So when we see Phoebe (who is a deacon, plain and simple, in the Greek), and other women leaders and teachers in the New Testament, we know that the passages which seem to forbid this activity for women must have limited application.
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Romans 16:1 (NKJV) 1 I commend to you Phoebe our sister, who is a servant of the church in Cenchrea, 2 that you may receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints, and assist her in whatever business she has need of you; for indeed she has been a helper of many and of myself also.
There is nothing in this scripture that says Phoebe was a deacon.
You error because you don't have the knowledge required to translate scripture. The committee that did the New King James Version translation consisted of over 100 Christian scholars, many with multiple doctorate degrees in biblical languages, church history, etc. It took them over seven years to do the translation. You're not qualified to override their translation, or any other real literal word for word translation, most of which were also done by committees of hundreds of scholars over periods of 7 to 10 years.
I advise you to throw your lexicon away and put your faith in the words God inspired the translators to write. They're the only ones qualified to say what God inspired Paul to write. The only reason a person tries to find another translation of particular words is because they want scripture to say what they want to hear.
You also error because you don't apply proper bible hermeneutics.
The Literal Interpretation Principle
We take the Bible at face value. We generally take everyday things in life as literal or at face value. This is a common sense approach. Even symbols and allegories in the Bible are based on the literal meaning of the scripture; thus the literal meaning is foundational to any symbolic or allegorical meaning.
The golden rule of interpretation is: When the plain sense of the scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense.
1 Timothy 2 and 3 make sense just as they are written. No other interpretation is necessary.
The Scripture Interprets Scripture Principle
All essential doctrines are fully and clearly explained - either in the immediate context, or somewhere else in the Bible. There are two essential 'rules' for applying this principle: 1) The context of the two passages must be the same; and 2) The plain as day passage must be used to guide our interpretation of a less clear passage - not the other way around!
The passages of scripture you claim show that women were teachers, leaders, deacons, etc. are not in the context of women being pastors.
1 Timothy 2 & 3, 1 Corinthians 11, and many more are plain as day and establish a firm doctrine that needs no modification. Therefore these scriptures take precedence over the out of context scriptures you are attempting to hold up as a contradiction.
The One Interpretation Principle
Every verse in the Bible has only one interpretation, although that verse may have many applications. The one correct interpretation is that which mirrors the intent of the inspired author.
The Harmony of Scripture Principle
No part of the Bible may be interpreted so as to contradict another part of the Bible.
When you say the scriptures you hold up indicate women can teach, have authority over men, and preach in church, you are using them to contradict more definitive scripture. This has nothing to do with modifying a particular scriptures application. When you say a women can be a pastor, you're contradicting the scripture that says a pastor must be a man.
The Grammatical Principle
The Bible was originally written in three languages: Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. Knowing the proper grammar of the language a text was originally written in at the time of the writing is important to proper translation and interpretation. Fortunately, most of the English translations have been done by large groups of persons with doctorate degrees in biblical languages who know how the manuscripts should be translated based on the grammatical setting of the original writing. Not only is the original manuscript "God breathed", but the translation is as well.
The Historical Background Principle
The Bible was composed in a specific culture at a particular point in time. While they are universal in application, the truths in the Bible can most fully be realized only when taking the surrounding culture and history into account.
Saying that women can teach because Phoebe was a servant and helper in the church is an erroneous conclusion. The context of the passage is Paul commending those who were of help to him and the church. He was in no way establishing doctrine that included women in the pastorate. The context has nothing to do with women being pastors. Nor does the reference to Junias, or Priscilla, or Mary Magdalene or any of the others.
You're grasping at straws because you can't accept that God does not intend women to be in a role of authority.
How big is your God? Could He not have inspired Paul to write that a pastor should be a man or women of good character, etc. Could He not have included women in the qualifications of pastors and deacons?
Are there any circumstances under which 1 Timothy 2 and 3, or any scripture that limits women, be applicable in your opinion?
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But I didn't accuse you of doing any such thing in my earlier post. You had stated that those who believe that women can be pastors had offered only opinion, commentary, feelings but no scripture to support their position. I simply pointed out that that was no so. How is that an accusation?
Agreed that scripture cannot contradict scripture. However there is no doctrine that only men can be pastors.
According to your interpretation. And you are, of course, welcome to your interpretation.
Except I never claimed that Mary was an apostle. I have said that she was the first person to preach the Good News of the risen Christ.
Except the Greek makes it clear that Phoebe was a deacon.
But we are not talking about first grade students here. If a person is listed as being among the Apostles then it would seem that that person is an apostle.
Actually the modern office of pastor isn't really addressed in scripture. The term pastor is more often used as a verb than as a noun.
You are likewise entitled to your own interpretation of scripture. I would simply suggest that if you do not believe that women should be pastors then do not join a church that ordains women.
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I am very qualified to translate the simple word "deacon." If the name in Romans 16:1 had been a man's, no one would debate that he was a deacon (rather than a "servant"), based on the word used; but because some people have an agenda to deny women leadership roles, they deny the plain meaning of the word in this case.
I am also not an KJV-only-ist in my approach to the Scriptures, and there are translations which translate the word in question as "deacon." (The NRSV is an example). So it's a matter of which committee one trusts more, and given that I can read the Greek for myself, in this instance I'm very comfortable with its meaning.
I'm sure it's been said before in this thread, but the office of "pastor" as it is commonly exercised in 21st-century Protestant churches did not exist in the early church, and therefore Scripture does not address it directly. We must extrapolate from Scripture to work out what pertains to it (or seek to reform the 21st-century Protestant practice of ministry, but I see that as less likely).
How big is my God? My God is big enough to pour out God's gifts on all God's children, not just the ones with a Y chromosome. My God is big enough that the Scriptural record shows that God always has done so, from the earliest matriarchs through to the time of Jesus and in the life of the Church. That is the definitive witness of Scripture, not a couple of epistle passages dealing with exceptional circumstances.
To my mind, the Scriptures which limit women are applicable to certain women; those not called to public ministry, those not educated for it, and so forth. Those Scriptures do not apply to all women everywhere at every time.
I am also not an KJV-only-ist in my approach to the Scriptures, and there are translations which translate the word in question as "deacon." (The NRSV is an example). So it's a matter of which committee one trusts more, and given that I can read the Greek for myself, in this instance I'm very comfortable with its meaning.
I'm sure it's been said before in this thread, but the office of "pastor" as it is commonly exercised in 21st-century Protestant churches did not exist in the early church, and therefore Scripture does not address it directly. We must extrapolate from Scripture to work out what pertains to it (or seek to reform the 21st-century Protestant practice of ministry, but I see that as less likely).
How big is my God? My God is big enough to pour out God's gifts on all God's children, not just the ones with a Y chromosome. My God is big enough that the Scriptural record shows that God always has done so, from the earliest matriarchs through to the time of Jesus and in the life of the Church. That is the definitive witness of Scripture, not a couple of epistle passages dealing with exceptional circumstances.
To my mind, the Scriptures which limit women are applicable to certain women; those not called to public ministry, those not educated for it, and so forth. Those Scriptures do not apply to all women everywhere at every time.
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The Greek word used can be translated Deacon, or servant.
It is the same word used of male deacons, and of Jesus himself, who said that he had come to serve.
Yes, that is probably true. But language changes, documents are discovered and so on.
The KJV is not perfect.
And the phrase is "you err", not "you error". It's not that important, but it seems appropriate in a discussion about language.
Sorry, but 1 Timothy 2:12-15 makes no sense at all.
"I do not allow a woman to teach", verse 12.
Paul did not allow women to teach - even though he knew that Priscilla taught Apollos.
"or have authority over a man"
Paul did not allow a woman - note the text does not say women, but A woman - to have authority over a man. Fine, but it is God who gives authority, and he seems to have no problem with it, as he appointed Deborah to lead a nation and allowed female prophets to take his word to men.
"For Adam was formed first, then Eve", verse 13.
So? What does that mean? The order of creation does not indicate authority/superiority; animals were created before humans, yet Adam and Eve were given authority over them.
"And Adam was not the one deceived, it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner", verse 14.
Again; so? Adam was not deceived - he deliberately and wilfully disobeyed God. If a woman cannot teach about God because Eve was deceived, then a man should not be able to teach because Adam heard God's word and deliberately disobeyed it. Who wants a teacher/pastor who teaches people to disobey and ignore God? Also, in Romans 5, Paul makes it clear that sin came into the world through Adam, not Eve, and that Jesus is the 2nd Adam. So it seems that either he has forgotten what he has already said, or he is contradicting himself.
"But women will be saved through childbearing," verse 15. Clearly not. Women, as men, are saved through Jesus; no one else. If that were literally true, Jesus would not be our Saviour, and childless women would be unsaved.
"if they continue in faith, love and holiness", verse 15. So even if women WERE saved through childbirth, they would have to remain faithful and holy for that salvation to be realised.
Yet 1 Timothy 2:12 says that PAUL does not allow a woman to teach, and this is widely interpreted as "therefore GOD does not allow a woman to teach" - which is contradicted by the female prophets who gave God's word to men, Mary Magdalene, Priscilla who taught Apollos etc. (Yes, I know Priscilla taught with her husband; she still taught.)
There is no Scripture which says that a Pastor MUST be a man.
Paul was perfectly capable of writing the words, "God commands that women must never lead, or teach in, churches"; yet he didn't. Jesus could easily have taught that he Father's will was that women should be silent and not allowed to teach the word of God or have authority over (whatever that means) men; but he didn't. What did he do? What was his example? Oh yes, he revealed to a woman that he was the Messiah and allowed her to go back to her village and tell everyone. He allowed Mary to sit at his feet - as the male student Rabbis did - and learn. He CHOSE a woman to be the first witness to his resurrection. Not the men; his own disciples who would be leaders in the early church, but a woman.
Exactly.
Women could not learn in those days; today we can.
If he didn't, why did he appoint Deborah to be judge over the whole nation?
And why does he allow born again, Spirit filled, Christian women who only want to serve God, to be ordained? Isn't he capable of rebuking, then guiding and leading them?
Could he not have specifically said - through Jesus, the 12 and Paul - that no woman must EVER seek to teach or lead a church? He made his word and commands perfectly clear in the OT, and punished all those who did not keep them. Why would he not make his will equally clear today?
Is he not capable of guiding women today; if necessary, rebuking and correcting us to make sure that we do his will?
Go back and read what you've said about the Bible being written in a certain time. They did not have the denominations and buildings that we have today; they had house churches, which women hosted and were involved with. It may not have been common practice for women to lead these gatherings, But the NT does not say that women must NEVER do so, at any time in the future.
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When we look at the bible, both old and new testaments, we realize that they emerged from an extremely patriarchal society. This society devalued women to the extent that they were not even considered to be persons before the law. Not only were they devalued but they were in many ways considered to be of inferior intellect and of a carnal nature even moreso than the male. Today we know that women are the intellectual and spiritual equals of men in every respect except physical size and strength. Jesus himslf seems to gave been largely gender blind in that he numbered women among his disciples and apostles and even close friends. Paul, at first, appears conflicted until we realize that the pastoral epistles (1 and 2 Timothy and Titus) were actually written pseudonomously some 60 years after Paul's death. This was more than enough time for patriarchy to once again take charge. In my personal opinion patriarchy just might be the ugliest evil that humanity has ever inflicted on itself. It still exerts its malevolent influence in some circles even today. As a Christian I am convinced that we should make every effort to ensure the full equality of women in every aspect of the life of our churches and in society at large.
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I agree with JackRT. However if you think 1 Tim was actually written by Paul, it's possible to understand it as at least mostly consistent with the undisputed letters of Paul. While Paul accepted female leaders, he did say that man was the "head" of a marriage. As such it's conceivable that he might have said that a woman shouldn't be put into a position of having teaching authority over her husband.
The language in 1 Tim 2 can just as plausibly be translated as saying that a wife shouldn't teach her husband as that a woman shouldn't teach a man. indeed such an understanding makes better sense of the reference to Genesis In that case, Adam's problem would be that he accepted the word of his wife, and didn't exercise his proper role in the marriage. In the conventional understanding it's hard to avoid the impression that women are simply less reliable than men. But that makes no sense. If we really believed that, we wouldn't want them teaching women or children any more than we'd want them teaching men. I actually think that the author of 1 Tim l did take that position. But presumably someone who believes in inerrancy would want to avoid it.
1 Tim can also reasonably be translated as describing qualifications for female deacons. That's why some conservative Protestant churches allow female deacons but not elders.
The language in 1 Tim 2 can just as plausibly be translated as saying that a wife shouldn't teach her husband as that a woman shouldn't teach a man. indeed such an understanding makes better sense of the reference to Genesis In that case, Adam's problem would be that he accepted the word of his wife, and didn't exercise his proper role in the marriage. In the conventional understanding it's hard to avoid the impression that women are simply less reliable than men. But that makes no sense. If we really believed that, we wouldn't want them teaching women or children any more than we'd want them teaching men. I actually think that the author of 1 Tim l did take that position. But presumably someone who believes in inerrancy would want to avoid it.
1 Tim can also reasonably be translated as describing qualifications for female deacons. That's why some conservative Protestant churches allow female deacons but not elders.
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I understand what Paul has said here, and that it's in Scripture.
What I do not understand, and categorically reject, is the notion that Paul is God, and that whatever this man said is the law of God. Paul is not Jesus, and he is not God. His personal letters are not commandments from God.
The fact that men decided to bind up some of Paul's letters with the Torah and the words of Jesus found in the Gospels did not transform Paul into God. Paul cannot bind the Church for all time. He wasn't even the head of the Church in HIS time. He was the least of the Apostles, by his own admission.
Paul lived in a very male-dominated time, and was himself a Pharisee out of an extremely male chauvinistic Jewish and Hellenistic culture. He wrote what he thought.
We're not Muslims, and the Bible is not a Koran. Paul's letters do not bind humanity forever to Paul's cultural views, because Paul was not God, and putting his letter in a book next to the direct commandments of God that came out of God's own mouth does not elevate Paul into being Christ or YHWH, and does not elevate his words to the same authority as the words that proceeded forth out of the mouth of God.
This should be obvious to everybody. The fact that it isn't highlights the great error of Sola Scriptura. It turns the Bible into a god-maker, elevating Paul's personal opinions to Commandments of YHWH.
God made women judges of Israel. He has used women as spiritual leaders, and he revealed the resurrection to women before he did men. God never sent a dead man as an emissary of heaven, but he has sent the Virgin Mary as his emissary many times. So yes, God HAS commanded men to obey women spiritually, he HAS placed women in charge, the only dead person he ever sent back as an emissary was Mary.
Paul's opinion was his opinion, valid in that time and place among that audience.
As a commandment for all time, Paul is to be ignored, and it is a grave error - the error of idolatry - to believe that by sewing a letter of Paul into a book and calling the book "Scripture", that his personal letter is transformed into "words that proceeded forth out of the mouth of God" and a commandment for all time from God to mankind. It's frank idolatry to believe that.
Paul's letters have always been treated with respect, but Paul did not have authority to bind the whole church even in his own lifetime. He certainly does not have it today.
He is not an authority when it comes to women teaching in church. He's wrong, and he is to be disregarded on that matter, because Paul's opinion is not a commandment of God, and does not reflect the will of God. In fact, it conflicts directly with the examples in Scripture of God using women as prophets to teach and judge and command men.
Paul would be appalled that he is treated as though he were God.
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marineimaging
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Grown men should know the scriptures well enough to know what to do. You can be assured that when I am sitting in a church building where a woman calls herself a preacher and she gets up to speak, the Spirit in me knows it is wrong and I will leave.
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