Women Pastors part 2

Paidiske

Clara bonam audax
Site Supporter
Apr 25, 2016
34,232
19,070
44
Albury, Australia
Visit site
✟1,507,169.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Well yes , it is barking up the wrong tree because there is no difference between forsaking all to follow Jesus for clergy and non clergy ( though I despise that separation of levels of holiness . )

I broadly agree with your bigger point in your post.

But clergy/laity are not separate levels of holiness. I am not holier than the rest of my congregation. There will always be, in my congregation, people who are more faithful servants, people who are more devoted in prayer, more learned in Scripture, more wise, more gifted, and so on, than I am.

Being clergy is to have a particular role; a "job" in the body. It's a role we take on for life, at God's calling, but it doesn't make us any holier or better than anyone else.

I don't know whether it's history repeating itself or just that basic human nature doesn't change, except by grace. But we have God's grace available to us, and so we also have hope.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Archivist
Upvote 0

NeedyFollower

Well-Known Member
Feb 29, 2016
1,024
437
63
N Carolina
✟71,145.00
Faith
Anabaptist
Marital Status
Celibate
I broadly agree with your bigger point in your post.

But clergy/laity are not separate levels of holiness. I am not holier than the rest of my congregation. There will always be, in my congregation, people who are more faithful servants, people who are more devoted in prayer, more learned in Scripture, more wise, more gifted, and so on, than I am.

Being clergy is to have a particular role; a "job" in the body. It's a role we take on for life, at God's calling, but it doesn't make us any holier or better than anyone else.

I don't know whether it's history repeating itself or just that basic human nature doesn't change, except by grace. But we have God's grace available to us, and so we also have hope.
Yes Sister, we do hope for grace but apparently the way of truth will be evil spoken of. So maybe God's grace would be a bit of soul searching by us , the Church. Those who are called by His Name. May women be pastors ? Can preachers be pastors ? Can administrators be pastors ? Can clergy be pastors ? I am not really sure ...I think the truth may have too large a cost ..particulary if someone has much invested ...and those who have the most invested are clergy. Jesus ran into the same thing. And who do you think it was who crucified the Truth ? Scholars.
I obviously know nothing about your walk, what your faith has cost you, how far along you are and what our Lord Jesus has shown you along the path of your journey ...you have seen different things . I can only speak about my walk and what I trust that the Lord has demonstrated to me ..both through His Word and examples of the faith of the early saints ....not to mention studying early church history with the various splits and schisms. I think there is a danger of ecumenicism and on the other side of the ditch of " Our group has it right " and thereby becoming self-centered, holier- than- thou. And No one seems to be able to say " Hey , I wonder where I am wrong ? "

There are countless examples of the "church" not being " harmless" nor true. William Laud on the High Church/ Armenian side and John Calvin / Knox and others on the Calvanistic Side. I am quite certain each side always think they are right and has the proof of scripture and a belief in Christ. Belief in Christ does not seem to keep us from error it appears. It does seem to me that we interpret scriptures through the lens of society and tradition, both of which can and do shift like the sand. We extol love but isn't truth a form of both love and mercy ? When John the Baptist told Herrod , It is not lawful for you to have your brother Philip's wife. Was that not a form of love ? Even when Christ said , You are of your father, the devil. Was that not a potential mercy ? ( Had they been able to hear and see how contrary their spirit was with the spirit of truth , they would have humbled themselves like Nicodemus . ) Peter was not offended when Jesus said " Get behind me satan , for thou savorist not the things that be of God but be of man . " Peter was aware that he had been duped and let his emotion get the best of him . I say these things not to " throw stones" but I hope to pursue Truth . Our Lord Jesus made it quite clear that the church needs to repent in revelation ..not what we would deem "the wicked" but the body of believers. I ask a lot of questions and have fellow shipped with followers from many backgrounds and cultures.
What is clergy ? Has history defined the role and is it the right definition ? Do deacons receive pay as well and why not . If I am also the body of Christ 24/7 as Christ body was always His body and I serve my master in all I do, should I receive pay ? (I ask this rhetorically... My payment is actually being in the body of Christ Jesus our Lord which is so far beyond what I actually deserve. ) I know the levites had no inheritance and was given a portion from the others tribes in the old covenant so they could minister to God but under the new covenant , we are all in the priesthood and none of us has an inheritance here in this world but we seek a city who's maker and builder is God.
Regarding history repeating itself, it is not lost on me that Christianity is a multi-trillion dollar business with book sales , choir robes , yard maintenance , worship music , worship leader salaries , restaurant revenues for the after church crowds ...particularly after Easter , Mothers Day , etc. and etc. Pastors salaries , secretary's salaries ..etc. One Trillion was spent this year on Christmas alone . Easter Sunday clothes , Sunday best clothes ..etc. I do not believe Christ Jesus could afford to be a Christian in today's society. I say these things not to " throw stones" but I hope to pursue Truth . Our Lord Jesus made it quite clear that the church needs to repent in revelation ..not what we would deem "the wicked" but the body of believers need to repent. have we added a lot of unnecessary things to " The time is coming and now is that true worshippers will worship in Spirit and Truth . Jesus ran into a bunch of worshipers doing a lot of things deemed necessary but not doing truth ( The sacrificial doves , lambs were necessary because of tradition but it had become a seriously big business. It makes you wonder who would be thrown out of the "temple" today ...although I know what we deem "churches " are just buildings.....very , very expensive buildings.
 
Upvote 0

bbbbbbb

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2015
28,320
13,540
72
✟370,327.00
Faith
Non-Denom
I'm glad we Catholics don't have to deal with this issue.

Not at present, at least. However, unless the shortage of priests in the United States radically turns around soon one of three possible things will happen -

1. The Pope will stand firm and there will be more and more Catholic church closings and consolidations along with declining membership numbers.
2. The floodgate will be opened when the Pope makes an infallible statement to the effect that celibate women can now officiate at the altar in a priestly manner, albeit under the authority of a priest who does not need to be physically present.
3. The floodgate will be opened when the Pope recognizes that the privileges of priestly marriage which are now practiced by former Anglican priests as well as those of other Catholic rites, are to be extended to all rites of the Catholic church.

My money is on #3. Where is yours?
 
Upvote 0

Paidiske

Clara bonam audax
Site Supporter
Apr 25, 2016
34,232
19,070
44
Albury, Australia
Visit site
✟1,507,169.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Doesn't something approaching #2 already happen with women distributing extended communion?

But I agree, I think allowing Catholic priests to marry is up for re-consideration due to changing social context.
 
Upvote 0

bbbbbbb

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2015
28,320
13,540
72
✟370,327.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Doesn't something approaching #2 already happen with women distributing extended communion?

But I agree, I think allowing Catholic priests to marry is up for re-consideration due to changing social context.

Yes, you are correct about the increasing involvement of women in the Catholic mass.
 
Upvote 0

CatholicCrusader

Papal Crusader
Jul 28, 2017
56
52
California
✟3,136.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
I'm glad we Catholics don't have to deal with this issue.
Not at present, at least. However, unless the shortage of priests in the United States radically turns around soon one of three possible things will happen -

1. The Pope will stand firm and there will be more and more Catholic church closings and consolidations along with declining membership numbers.
2. The floodgate will be opened when the Pope makes an infallible statement to the effect that celibate women can now officiate at the altar in a priestly manner, albeit under the authority of a priest who does not need to be physically present.
3. The floodgate will be opened when the Pope recognizes that the privileges of priestly marriage which are now practiced by former Anglican priests as well as those of other Catholic rites, are to be extended to all rites of the Catholic church.

My money is on #3. Where is yours?

Many people, including many Catholics, are not aware that this issue has been addressed "infallibly" and can never be changed until Christ comes again. It is set, for all time to come; it has been bound in heaven as it has been bound upon earth:

QUOTE: "4. Although the teaching that priestly ordination is to be reserved to men alone has been preserved by the constant and universal Tradition of the Church and firmly taught by the Magisterium in its more recent documents, at the present time in some places it is nonetheless considered still open to debate, or the Church's judgment that women are not to be admitted to ordination is considered to have a merely disciplinary force.

Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church's divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful.
"
- APOSTOLIC LETTER "ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS" OF JOHN PAUL II TO THE BISHOPS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ON RESERVING PRIESTLY ORDINATION TO MEN ALONE
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

NeedyFollower

Well-Known Member
Feb 29, 2016
1,024
437
63
N Carolina
✟71,145.00
Faith
Anabaptist
Marital Status
Celibate
The "what is clergy" question probably needs a thread of its own; it's too big to do justice to as an off-topic tangent here!
Hi Sister ..Yes , you are of course correct in that it is too large a topic and is a subset of the OP's question or concern. Or in truth maybe the OP's question is a subset of the larger question , what is clergy. It would make an interesting post but not sure how to frame it in the search for truth . You as a staff member and clergy may be able to position it better than I . With that said , would you be able to be unbiased having an investment as both a member of clergy and a woman ? Jesus said my sheep hear my voice . He also said , I am the Way , the Truth and the Life. Is the truth His voice ? Do we posses the ability to stand outside ourselves ..to have our opinion crucified ? Would you pose the question , What is clergy ? what was clergy ? How did clergy become a career ? The qualifications ..not a novice , etc. ?

I will not fain an unbiased opinion in that scripture and traditions are the only things we have to go on besides the leading of the Holy Spirit ...even the spirit of truth . With apologies to my brothers and sisters of the catholic tradition , How is the protestant tradition of having a preacher bring the word of God to the people of God , any different than a catholic priest standing between a man and God ? " And He gave some apostles ; and some prophets and some evangelist , and some pastors and teachers for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry; for the edifying of the body of Christ. Till we all come to the unity of the Faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God , unto a perfect man , unto the measure of the statue of the fullness of Christ.

Maybe the best question would be ..does the clergy and our current system which we call worship , actually cause us to rely on man to hear from God and has put them into a position that by necessity causes the believers to be a form of merchandise. That is a leading question and not at all unbiased but it is one of my concerns among many . Grace , Truth and peace through Jesus Christ our Lord . ( Yours Mine ,and ours . )
 
Upvote 0

bbbbbbb

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2015
28,320
13,540
72
✟370,327.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Many people, including many Catholics, are not aware that this issue has been addressed "infallibly" and can never be changed until Christ comes again. It is set, for all time to come; it has been bound in heaven as it has been bound upon earth:

QUOTE: "4. Although the teaching that priestly ordination is to be reserved to men alone has been preserved by the constant and universal Tradition of the Church and firmly taught by the Magisterium in its more recent documents, at the present time in some places it is nonetheless considered still open to debate, or the Church's judgment that women are not to be admitted to ordination is considered to have a merely disciplinary force.

Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church's divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful.
"
- APOSTOLIC LETTER "ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS" OF JOHN PAUL II TO THE BISHOPS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ON RESERVING PRIESTLY ORDINATION TO MEN ALONE

Thanks for your input. I think I will start a new thread with a poll. Stay tuned.

Here is the link - Clergy Crisis in Catholicism
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0