When is lying not sinful?

yeshuaslavejeff

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Jan 6, 2005
39,944
11,098
okie
✟214,996.00
Faith
Anabaptist
Yet, no deception was intended.
Look into this historically, if the information is available,
and you will find out that a lot of deception was (and is) intended by both scientists and religious and social and government , ie. all society... (Galatians, Ephesians, Revelation say so also, as did Jesus frequently).
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Haipule
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,510
7,861
...
✟1,194,809.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
As for those who think God told Moses to tell a lie to the Pharoah:

Well, this is simply not true. God did not tell Moses to lie to the Pharoah. The Scriptures say that it is impossible for God to lie (Hebrews 6:18).

Looking at the text we see this.

"For Pharaoh will say of the children of Israel, They are entangled in the land, the wilderness hath shut them in." (Exodus 14:3).

The wilderness was not too far outside the Pharoah's occupied land.

"But God led the people about, through the way of the wilderness of the Red sea: and the children of Israel went up harnessed out of the land of Egypt." (Exodus 13:18).

God's initial request to the Pharoah (with Moses being his spokes person) under the first scenario no longer applied. The situation changed. God did not have to keep with His initial plan if the Pharoah disagreed. If the Pharoah agreed to God's initial request, there is no doubt that God would have made those words so as to come to pass. But the Pharoah has free will and he chose a different course of action for history. So no lying actually took place by God. The situation merely changed beyond God's intial proposal because of the Pharoah's actions.


...
 
Upvote 0

paul1149

that your faith might rest in the power of God
Site Supporter
Mar 22, 2011
8,460
5,268
NY
✟674,964.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
Hebrews 11 gives at least two examples of people who lied and received God's explicit commendation for it. The Egyptian midwives at the very least stretched the truth when they explained to Pharaoh that the Hebrew wives gave birth before they had a chance to snatch the child and kill it. And Rahab of Jericho blatantly lied when she shielded the two Israelite spies. Rahab's action was outright treason and rebellion in the eyes of her countrymen, yet she not only made the Hall of Faith for it, she became progenitor to David and the Lord Jesus himself.

There's a little phrase in that Hebrews narrative that I think sums up when deception is ok or even commendable: It says repeatedly that "In faith..." the listed heroes performed their various actions. The midwives and Rahab, and countless other saints since them, like the Dutch ten Boom family which sheltered Jews in WWII, did what they did in faith before God that it was morally right.

Everything needs to be weighed on a case basis, but the kind of faith referred to here I believe lines up with what Jesus speaks of in Mark 11 - that is, it resonates in the heart, "without doubting". At least, that would be the ideal. But in any case, it is good faith that sanctions "constructive deception".
 
Upvote 0

Haipule

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2017
681
439
64
Honokawai, Maui HI
✟32,461.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
There are some believers who might think that God approved of Rahab in lying; However, Rahab did not break the 9th Commandment and lie. She was using the art of war in protecting the interests of God's people. For she did not lie to protect herself or to cover up another sin or anything of that nature.

For in war time or in protecting your loved ones or God's people, a person can use the art of war to defend that which is good. This sometimes unfortunately involves deceiving and or eliminating your enemy; However, these things are not done out of selfish ambition, but they are done in order to preserve innocent lives or to protect the common good.

For the Hebrew midwives had lied to the Pharoah's servants to protect the innocent (Exodus 1).

And King David pretended he was crazy when he was not crazy in front of the enemy king of Gath named "Achish" (1 Samuel 21:10-15).

Also, Elisha deceived the enemy when they were blinded by lying about where he was taking them. (2 Kings 6:19)

In addition in Joshua 8:
Joshua himself went in battle against the city of Ai, they pretended that they were being defeated and they retreated. They weren’t being defeated—it was a trap. The Israelites deceived them.

Please take note that God told Joshua to lay an ambush for the army at Ai. If you were to read the chapter, this ambush involved deception. In other words, God was telling Joshua to deceive their enemies as a part of the art of war.

However, if a certain spirit was telling Joshua to lie so as to cover up a sin and or his own embarrassment or shame about something, then that would be a wrong spirit who was trying to make Joshua break the 9th Commandment.

Think of it this way. When a person selfishly takes their own life, it is considered suicide.
But when a person throws themselves in harm's way so as to save a life like a father pushing his son out of the way of a moving car (with him being hit), it is considered great love. This is what Jesus has done for us. He has died in our place so as to give us eternal life and salvation so as to spend eternity with Him and His good ways.

Side Note:

Oh, and one more thing. I would like to add that believers today are not under the Old Covenant anymore. God is not telling His people to go to war with certain nations, and use deception as a part of the art of war, etc. Believers today are under the New Covenant with a different set of laws or commands that involves love and non violence. There is no command in the New Testament that gives believers today a loophole for lying to people. If a believer is in a difficult situation whereby they are forced to lie so as to protect a loved one today, I believe that they will repent of such a sin (i.e. confess it to the Lord Jesus Christ). For how often does a person run into this kind of scenario? If they repeatedly do so, then they need to stand up for what is good and right and trust in God's good ways. It is still always wrong to lie out of our own selfish motives and ambitions. There was a time and place for such things in the past, but we believers today are called to be imitators of Jesus Christ. We follow a higher calling of love and goodness. For do you think Jesus would lie to protect life? Maybe a play on words, but not a bold face lie.

For example: If I was hiding Jews during the time of the war, and Germans broke into my house, and they asked me, "Are there any Jews here?"

Instead of freezing up like a deer in headlights thinking about a "yes" or a "no", I could reply,

"Do you see any Jews around here?" "Please feel free to look around."


...
Then there's the big deception of Gideon. And yes, in battle.

I know how God is and if I was there that day, I would have woken up that day with a sore back. I would not have been able to bent so would have been forced to pull the water to my mouth. Then I would have been chosen and my sore back would go away. See how He is? :oldthumbsup:
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

AlexDTX

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 13, 2015
4,191
2,818
✟328,934.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Is there ever a time that being dishonest is actually ok to God?

I ask because a few times in scripture we see very godly men being deceitful and it not being recorded as wrong. In fact a couple times God seems to bless them in spite of it.

Abraham when he went before Pharoah and Abimelek. Isaac before Abimelek. Jacob with his brother Esau, several times. Joseph when he acted as if he didn't know his brothers, gave them back their silver and said he hadn't, then set up Benjamin with the Silver Cup. David acting mentally ill in front of Achish

What about making silly noises then blaming them on a friend or family member?

Or for a more serious matter, hiding someone to save their life? Or lying so you don't hurt someone's feelings?

So is there ever a time that being dishonest is ok?

IOW, when is a lie not sin?
Did Jesus ever lie? I want to have the wisdom that Jesus had to be discrete and know how to answer every man truthfully without being entrapped.
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,510
7,861
...
✟1,194,809.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Did Jesus ever lie? I want to have the wisdom that Jesus had to be discrete and know how to answer every man truthfully without being entrapped.

You may enjoy this:


God's Undercover Agent

By Rev. Darren Edgington.


As a young child, the Mission Impossible television programs tantalized me. I couldn’t wait to watch the next nail-biting episode. I can recall the introductory music, and can visualize the puff of smoke as the mysterious tape self-destructed in five seconds. There was something delightfully intriguing about the life of a secret agent.

Our best efforts to portray the mystery of espionage cannot ever supercede God’s story. The unveiling of God’s undercover agent makes the best episode of Mission Impossible quite trivial.

The superstar of God’s story is of course Jesus of Nazareth. Those who came into contact with him often wondered out loud, “What manner of man is this?” *He appeared ordinary. But in reality, he was far from it.

In many Mission Impossible episodes a spy would peel off a fake mask. *Beneath they were really someone else. Jesus’ identity is far more mysterious.

In the fullness of time the Bible declares that the eternal Son of God took to himself a complete human nature, not a mere mask. In the manger in Bethlehem was what appeared to be just another baby. But Jesus was more than meets the eye. *God and man – the perfect union of two natures in one person - now that is some mystery!

God’s secret agent veiled his unique identity throughout his life. He even spoke to the masses in parabolic forms of speech so that, “though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand” (Luke 8:10). His Father also participated in the cover-up, hiding things from the wise and intelligent (Luke 10:21).

Frequently after performing some jaw-dropping miracle, Jesus stated that his identity must remain a secret. He repeated this order at one critical juncture. He had drawn his disciples aside to inquire about their opinion regarding his identity. Peter correctly asserted that the Jesus was the long-expected Jewish Messiah, the Christ. It is noteworthy that Jesus immediately “warned them not to tell anyone about him” (Mark 8:30).

Put yourself in one of the disciple’s sandals for a moment. Can you imagine knowing with certainty that Jesus was the Christ that everyone had been waiting for, then not being able to tell anyone? *This is front-page news! Why must they be silent?

At that time Jesus began to unravel the purpose of his undercover operation, but only to the inner circle. His mission to Jerusalem requires a special task: “He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again. He spoke plainly about this” (Mark 8:31-32).

Jesus sequestered the disciples on two more occasions and explained the details of God’s mysterious plan. It is obvious from the text that they remained in the dark.

Why was Jesus so careful to retain this undercover status?

The people wanted the messianic king to deliver them from Roman tyranny (and the disciples all wanted a prominent cabinet position!). The problem was that they had predetermined the nature of his mission. Jesus would not allow any man to dictate his role. He was God’s agent. He would not be deterred from God’s mission.

Jesus’ words in Mark 10:45 define why he came: “The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

What the disciples failed to grasp is that the expected messianic Lion is also the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 – the Lamb of God who is pierced for our transgressions. The eternal Son went undercover so he could lay down his life on Calvary. *The ransom price for many had to be paid. *Prevailing misconceptions must not be allowed to keep him from fulfilling his mission.

After the resurrection and the Holy Spirit’s empowerment at Pentecost, the formerly confused disciples proclaimed Jesus’ identity and mission with vigor. And what was central in their message? Jesus Christ, and him crucified. No cross . . . no Christianity.

The undercover agent had a dual identity. The royal Lion is also the pierced Lamb. What an intriguing mystery!



Source:
LightHouseontheHill



...
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,510
7,861
...
✟1,194,809.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Then there's the big deception of Gideon. And yes, in battle.

I know how God is and if I was there that day, I would have woken up that day with a sore back. I would not have been able to bent so would have been forced to pull the water to my mouth. Then I would have been chosen and my sore back would go away. See how He is? :oldthumbsup:

There is a difference between deception used in the art of war vs. lying to cover up one's sins or lying for one's own personal selfish agenda alone.

Imagine if we didn't have spies or did not use weapons to defend this country?

In other words, through out time, there is...
"A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up."
(Ecclesiastes 3:3).

For if the Son of God was not killed on our behalf, we would not be saved.

Granted, believers today under the New Covenant are commanded by God to not lie and they are commanded by God to be non violent. In the Old Testament, God allowed His people to use deception and to kill their enemies as a part of defeating their enemies who were exceptionally sinful and destructive to the Israelites as a part of showing us that God is a rewarder to those who follow Him and He is a punisher to those who do evil.

For example: Can God steal anything? No. He owns everything.
Can God murder? No. Every life is his property and He gave life to a person. He can give life and He can take it away. Can God lie? No. God always tells the truth, and He wants us to tell the truth. This "Truth" is Jesus Christ (John 14:6).


...
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Haipule
Upvote 0

RDKirk

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner
Site Supporter
Mar 3, 2013
39,283
20,281
US
✟1,476,266.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
This is an excellent example.

If a Christian German hid Jews in his secret basement for the duration of WWII and lied to suspicious Nazi officers about it, which would have saved the lives of several people, how on earth could anyone think that such a lie is sinful?

That is what Rahab did, and James explicitly praises her specifically for her lie.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Solomons Porch

Solomon's Porch
Jan 8, 2017
3,664
5,854
East
✟206,553.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
  • Agree
Reactions: ByTheSpirit
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,510
7,861
...
✟1,194,809.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
That is what Rahab did, and James explicitly praises her specifically for her lie.

Yet, all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 21:8);
And Ananais and Sapphira were both killed for lying to the Holy Spirit (See Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11).

I have updated this post - Because I changed my belief on lying in regards to Rehab, and the Hebrew Mid Wives, etc.


...
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

yeshuaslavejeff

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Jan 6, 2005
39,944
11,098
okie
✟214,996.00
Faith
Anabaptist
When someone (a religious leader or other person) lies to someone saying they want to save that person, or prevent harm or accident or illness,
and they really really really "intend" (believe) they are helping,
but
unwittingly in reality are condemning them (i.e. like with a false gospel, or other false information/ doctrine/ idea) ,
that is sinful.
 
Upvote 0

Godlovesmetwo

Fringe Catholic
Mar 16, 2016
10,398
7,257
Antwerp
✟17,860.00
Country
Djibouti
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Others
But deception is not sinful in every instance
I'm glad to hear that. :)
I think we all do that much more than we realise. Is even a strategy to evangelise, recruit more followers of Christ. "give money to our Church and God will look after you".
 
  • Like
Reactions: Haipule
Upvote 0

Solomons Porch

Solomon's Porch
Jan 8, 2017
3,664
5,854
East
✟206,553.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
When someone (a religious leader or other person) lies to someone saying they want to save that person, or prevent harm or accident or illness,
and they really really really "intend" (believe) they are helping,
but
unwittingly in reality are condemning them (i.e. like with a false gospel, or other false information/ doctrine/ idea) ,
that is sinful.
I was referring to "saving their life" (physically) not in the terms of salvation. I agree about a false doctrine/gospel or other information etc.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Haipule

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2017
681
439
64
Honokawai, Maui HI
✟32,461.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You may enjoy this:


God's Undercover Agent

By Rev. Darren Edgington.


As a young child, the Mission Impossible television programs tantalized me. I couldn’t wait to watch the next nail-biting episode. I can recall the introductory music, and can visualize the puff of smoke as the mysterious tape self-destructed in five seconds. There was something delightfully intriguing about the life of a secret agent.

Our best efforts to portray the mystery of espionage cannot ever supercede God’s story. The unveiling of God’s undercover agent makes the best episode of Mission Impossible quite trivial.

The superstar of God’s story is of course Jesus of Nazareth. Those who came into contact with him often wondered out loud, “What manner of man is this?” *He appeared ordinary. But in reality, he was far from it.

In many Mission Impossible episodes a spy would peel off a fake mask. *Beneath they were really someone else. Jesus’ identity is far more mysterious.

In the fullness of time the Bible declares that the eternal Son of God took to himself a complete human nature, not a mere mask. In the manger in Bethlehem was what appeared to be just another baby. But Jesus was more than meets the eye. *God and man – the perfect union of two natures in one person - now that is some mystery!

God’s secret agent veiled his unique identity throughout his life. He even spoke to the masses in parabolic forms of speech so that, “though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand” (Luke 8:10). His Father also participated in the cover-up, hiding things from the wise and intelligent (Luke 10:21).

Frequently after performing some jaw-dropping miracle, Jesus stated that his identity must remain a secret. He repeated this order at one critical juncture. He had drawn his disciples aside to inquire about their opinion regarding his identity. Peter correctly asserted that the Jesus was the long-expected Jewish Messiah, the Christ. It is noteworthy that Jesus immediately “warned them not to tell anyone about him” (Mark 8:30).

Put yourself in one of the disciple’s sandals for a moment. Can you imagine knowing with certainty that Jesus was the Christ that everyone had been waiting for, then not being able to tell anyone? *This is front-page news! Why must they be silent?

At that time Jesus began to unravel the purpose of his undercover operation, but only to the inner circle. His mission to Jerusalem requires a special task: “He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again. He spoke plainly about this” (Mark 8:31-32).

Jesus sequestered the disciples on two more occasions and explained the details of God’s mysterious plan. It is obvious from the text that they remained in the dark.

Why was Jesus so careful to retain this undercover status?

The people wanted the messianic king to deliver them from Roman tyranny (and the disciples all wanted a prominent cabinet position!). The problem was that they had predetermined the nature of his mission. Jesus would not allow any man to dictate his role. He was God’s agent. He would not be deterred from God’s mission.

Jesus’ words in Mark 10:45 define why he came: “The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

What the disciples failed to grasp is that the expected messianic Lion is also the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 – the Lamb of God who is pierced for our transgressions. The eternal Son went undercover so he could lay down his life on Calvary. *The ransom price for many had to be paid. *Prevailing misconceptions must not be allowed to keep him from fulfilling his mission.

After the resurrection and the Holy Spirit’s empowerment at Pentecost, the formerly confused disciples proclaimed Jesus’ identity and mission with vigor. And what was central in their message? Jesus Christ, and him crucified. No cross . . . no Christianity.

The undercover agent had a dual identity. The royal Lion is also the pierced Lamb. What an intriguing mystery!



Source:
LightHouseontheHill



...
Then there's the stellar record called the Zodiac which speaks of a virgin woman who has a child(Virgo--late august, early September). A Lamb that is slaughtered(Aries--Easter). And His return as the Lion of Judah(Leo--late July, early August). That story has been told even before Adam and it is still unfolding!

No one know the hour or day of His return. But, I can make a pretty good guess at the month!
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

NothingIsImpossible

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2015
5,615
3,254
✟274,922.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Some people believe all lying is a sin, but I don't believe that. Lying is complex as to why/how we do it. If you lie for example to your spouse about looking at inappropriate content, then your in sin. If you lie to your spouse about having dinner after work and actually ist a surprise party for her birthday, its not a sinful lie.

What about when a parent dies? Do you not "exaggerate the truth" and say "Timmy mommys body is dead. All her ograns shut down after she got hit by a car and then she bled to death.". Of course not. You would sort of lie and say "Well mommy went to sleep and she is with Jesus now. We won't see mommy again until we are with Jesus too.". I mean of course you would expand on that more but its to some degree a half truth and half lie.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,510
7,861
...
✟1,194,809.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Then there's the stellar record called the Zodiac which speaks of a virgin woman who has a child(Virgo--late august, early September). A Lamb that is slaughtered(Aries--Easter). And His return as the Lion of Judah(Leo--late July, early August). That story has been told even before Adam and it is still unfolding!

I do not believe in Christian Astrology like E.W. Bullinger. It is attempting to seek meaning outside of God's Word or direction. Yes, Genesis 1:14 says let there be lights in the sky of Heaven and let them be for signs, and seasons, but these are signs that God specifically says and not of our own invention or by man's invention!


...
 
Upvote 0