The insecurity of Calvinism

zoidar said:

So? Jesus wanted them to turn around and be his sheep. In John 10:22-42, where does it say that Jesus is accusing them of being false shepherds? I don't see it at all. He is accusing them of not believing in him, not of being false shepherds, he has allready done that in John 10:1-21.

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Again, to whom was Jesus addressing?

The scribes, Sadduces, and Pharisees. False shepherds.

zoidar said:

You can look just at the cross for knowing he died for you, but not at the same time be a consequent calvinist. Because the cross ALONE can never afirm that Jesus died for you unless he has died for all men. There must also be faith to know for a calvinist, and that is a great weakness.

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How can an unsaved person look at the cross and know He died for you?

Here I was thinking that it took enlightenment from the Holy Spirit.

Faith "is a great weakness".

That's a good one.

God Bless

Till all are one.

zoidar said:

Sorry for my some what, VERY late response.

Yes, true ... Jesus is telling them how to become his sheep. Isn't he? If they only would believe in his works, they will believe in him, and leave their position as high priests etc. and become followers of the Lord. Many of them knew who he was but they didn't want to believe.

"Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue" /John 12:42

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Nevertheless, they did not follow after Him did they?

What did Jesus say?

"And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God's sake," -Lk. 18:29 (KJV)

zoidar said:

That's not what I meant, you as a calvinist need "knowledge" of your faith to know, faith in the cross can never be enough, can it? Calvinists and Lutherans have different messures to know one is a Christian. Lutherans by looking at the cross, and calvinists by knowledge of faith. Isn't that true? How else do a calvinist know for sure they are a Christian?

Calvinist: "I trust in Jesus cross for my salvation."
Lutheran: "Ok, what does the cross tell you?"
Calvinist: "It tells me Jesus died for the elect"
Lutheran: "Ok, how does that help you?"
Calvinist: "Because I'm one of the elect!"
Lutheran: Ok, how do you know that?"
Calvinist: "Because I trust in the cross."
Lutheran: "So you are trustning in something that you know is true only as long as you trust in it ... Weird! Sounds like your faith holds together by your knowledge of your trust. To me the cross say's it's done, It's never about my trust, but about the cross. Is it never a burden to you that you need knowledge of trust to know Jesus loves you and died for you? For me the cross is always before knowing, that's how I know Jesus loves me. Blessings my friend!
Calvinist: ...

God bless you DD!

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Tell me something, where did you get that above?

Of course I trust my faith because faith is God-given. Scriptures tell us Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. (cf. Heb. 12:2)

Why wouldn't I trust my faith?

Would Satan give you the faith to believe?

"The ESV Study Bible comments on Biblical faith - By defining faith (Gk. pistis) as “assurance” and “conviction,” the author indicates that biblical faith is not a vague hope grounded in imaginary, wishful thinking. Instead, faith is a settled confidence that something in the future—something that is not yet seen but has been promised by God—will actually come to pass because God will bring it about. Thus biblical faith is not blind trust in the face of contrary evidence, not an unknowable “leap in the dark”; rather, biblical faith is a confident trust in the eternal God who is all-powerful, infinitely wise, eternally trustworthy—the God who has revealed himself in his word and in the person of Jesus Christ, whose promises have proven true from generation to generation, and who will “never leave nor forsake” his own (Heb 13:5)

Faith is believing that God will keep His promises, despite circumstances that seem to be to the contrary! ... Faith takes God at His Word, even when all in the world currently seems contrary to his purposes. Faith is resting one's heart and mind on God's immutable, trustworthy character and sees the eternal in the present and choose to live accordingly, in dependence on the power of the Holy Spirit. And importantly, faith relies on what Christ has done for us as opposed to our own efforts.

"Faith is a steady and certain knowledge of the Divine benevolence towards us, which, being founded on the truth of the gratuitous promise in Christ, is both revealed to our minds, and confirmed to our hearts, by the Holy Spirit.” - John Calvin

Louis Berkhof defines genuine faith including an intellectual element (notitia), which is "a positive recognition of the truth”; an emotional element (assensus), which includes “a deep conviction of the truth”; and a volitional element (fiducia), which involves “a personal trust in Christ as Savior and Lord, including a surrender … to Christ.” (Louis Berkhof, Systematic Theology. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1939)

"Saving faith is not a native product of the human heart, but is a spiritual grace communicated from on High." - A.W. Pink

"It is not faith that saves, but faith in Jesus Christ.... It is not, strictly speaking, even faith in Christ that saves, but Christ that saves through faith. The saving power resides exclusively, not in the act of faith or the attitude of faith or in the nature of faith, but in the object of faith." - B. B. Warfield

"Faith is the principal work of the Holy Spirit." - Calvin (Institutes 3.1.4).
"Faith is the proper and entire work of the Holy Spirit." - Calvin (Institutes 3.1.4).
"We cannot quicken faith in ourselves or predispose ourselves for it in any way. There is not in us any commencement of faith or any preparation of it." - John Calvin,Commentary John 6:45"

Link

So in this aspect (calvinists by knowledge of faith. Isn't that true? How else do a calvinist know for sure they are a Christian?" And "Because I trust in the cross."

Is completely incorrect.

How do I know I am among the elect?

Because I trusted in the finished work of Jesus Christ and got saved.

And of course I trust the cross. Where else did all of Christ work finish at?

"Alas And Did My Savior Die!

1. Alas! and did my Savior bleed
   And did my Sov’reign die?
   Would He devote that sacred head
   For such a worm as I?
2. Was it for crimes that I had done
   He groaned upon the tree?
   Amazing pity! grace unknown!
   And love beyond degree!
3. Well might the sun in darkness hide
   And shut his glories in,
   When Christ, the mighty Maker died,
   For man the creature’s sin.
4. Thus might I hide my blushing face
   While His dear cross appears,
   Dissolve my heart in thankfulness,
   And melt my eyes to tears.
5. But drops of grief can ne’er repay
   The debt of love I owe:
   Here, Lord, I give myself away,
   ’Tis all that I can do.
   • Refrain (Hudson):
     At the cross, at the cross where I first saw the light,
     And the burden of my heart rolled away,
     It was there by faith I received my sight,
     And now I am happy all the day!

Isaac Watts, 1707; Ralph E. Hudson, 1885

I am also reminded of the ending of the great movie "Ben Hur".

We see Christ dying, a thunder storm comes, blood mingling with the rain, the camera scrolls down, we see a "river" of life coming from the cross. That thought hit me like a thunderbolt!

A river of life started at the cross, and that river has been flowing for over 2000 years now. Oh praise His Holy Name!

"On a hill far away stood an old rugged cross,
The emblem of suff’ring and shame;
And I love that old cross where the Dearest and Best
For a world of lost sinners was slain.

• Refrain:
  So I’ll cherish the old rugged cross,
  Till my trophies at last I lay down;
  I will cling to the old rugged cross,
  And exchange it someday for a crown.

Oh, that old rugged cross, so despised by the world,
Has a wondrous attraction for me;
For the dear Lamb of God left His glory above
To bear it to dark Calvary.

In that old rugged cross, stained with blood so divine,
A wondrous beauty I see,
For ’twas on that old cross Jesus suffered and died,
To pardon and sanctify me.

To the old rugged cross I will ever be true;
Its shame and reproach gladly bear;
Then He’ll call me someday to my home far away,
Where His glory forever I’ll share."

The Old Rugged Cross, Bernard Shaw, 1913

Oh how I love that "Old Rugged Cross"!

It is indeed another sad aspect most some that they cannot have "assurance" of their salvation.

God Bless

Till all are one.

zoidar said:

calvinists by knowledge of faith. Isn't that true? How else do a calvinist know for sure they are a Christian?

Calvinist: "I trust in Jesus cross for my salvation."
Lutheran: "Ok, what does the cross tell you?"
Calvinist: "It tells me Jesus died for the elect"
Lutheran: "Ok, how does that help you?"
Calvinist: "Because I'm one of the elect!"
Lutheran: Ok, how do you know that?"
Calvinist: "Because I trust in the cross."
Lutheran: "So you are trustning in something that you know is true only as long as you trust in it ...

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I also add this:

"2 Corinthians 13:5

Examine yourselves whether ye be in the faith
These words are to be considered in connection with ( 2 Corinthians 13:3 ) for seeing they sought and demanded a proof the voice and power of Christ in the apostle, he directs them to self examination, to look within themselves, to try, prove, and recognise their own souls; where if things were right, they would find a proof of Christ's speaking in him, to them: he advises them to examine the state of their own souls, and see whether they were in the faith; either in the doctrine of faith, having a spiritual and experimental knowledge of it, true love and affection for it, an hearty belief of it, having felt the power of it upon their souls, and abode in it; whether, as the Syriac version reads it, (Nymyq atwnmyhb) , "ye stand in the faith", firm and stable; or in the grace of faith, either of miracles, or that which is connected with salvation; and which if they were in it, and had it, is attended with good works; operates by love to Christ and to his people; by which souls go out of themselves to Christ, live upon him, receive from him, and give him all the glory of salvation: and if this was their case, he desires to know how they came by their faith; and suggests, that their light in the doctrine of the Gospel, and their faith in Christ Jesus, as well as the miraculous gifts many of them were possessed of, were through his ministry as the means; and this was a full proof of Christ's speaking in him:
prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus
Christ is in you;
by which he means, that if they took a survey of things in their own souls, it would appear that Christ was in them; not as he is in all the world, filling heaven and earth with his presence; or as he is in every rational creature, as the Creator and author of the light of nature; but in a special and spiritual manner, by his Spirit and grace; the Father reveals him in his people, as the foundation of their hope of glory; he himself enters and takes possession of their hearts in conversion, communicates his grace, and manifests himself, and is formed there by his Spirit; his graces are implanted, his image is stamped, his Spirit is put within them, and he himself dwells by faith: and this upon inquiry would be found to be the case of the Corinthians,
except,
says the apostle,
ye are reprobates;
meaning not that they were so, as such may stand opposed to the elect of God; for persons may as yet neither be in the faith, nor Christ in them, and yet both be hereafter, and so not be left of God, or consigned to destruction; but that if they were not in the doctrine of, faith, then they were reprobate concerning it, or void of judgment in it; and if they had not the grace of faith, and Christ was not in them, then they were not genuine, but nominal professors, like "reprobate silver", counterfeit coin; which when detected, would be "disapproved", not only by God, but man, as this word also signifies, and so stands opposed to them that are "approved", ( 2 Corinthians 13:7 ) or if they did not make such an examination, probation, and recognition of themselves, they would be without probation: or as the Arabic version, without experiment. The apostle hereby brings them into this dilemma, either that if upon examination they were found to be in the faith, and Christ in them, which blessings they enjoyed through his ministry, then they did not want a proof of Christ speaking in him; but if these things did not appear in them, then they were persons of no judgment in spiritual things, were not real Christians, but insignificant and useless persons."

John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible, 2 Corinthians 13:5

But as shown above:

"Faith is the principal work of the Holy Spirit." - Calvin (Institutes 3.1.4).

"Faith is the proper and entire work of the Holy Spirit." - Calvin (Institutes 3.1.4).

"We cannot quicken faith in ourselves or predispose ourselves for it in any way. There is not in us any commencement of faith or any preparation of it." - John Calvin,Commentary John 6:45"

I don't see what you meant by:

"calvinists by knowledge of faith. Isn't that true? How else do a calvinist know for sure they are a Christian?"

Its all about God, Christ, and the work of the Holy Spirit. -John Calvin

God Bless

Till all are one.

zoidar said:

Sorry for my some what, VERY late response.



Yes, true ... Jesus is telling them how to become his sheep. Isn't he? If they only would believe in his works, they will believe in him, and leave their position as high priests etc. and become followers of the Lord. Many of them knew who he was but they didn't want to believe.

"Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue" /John 12:42



That's not what I meant, you as a calvinist need "knowledge" of your faith to know, faith in the cross can never be enough, can it? Calvinists and Lutherans have different messures to know one is a Christian. Lutherans by looking at the cross, and calvinists by knowledge of faith. Isn't that true? How else do a calvinist know for sure they are a Christian?

Calvinist: "I trust in Jesus cross for my salvation."
Lutheran: "Ok, what does the cross tell you?"
Calvinist: "It tells me Jesus died for the elect"
Lutheran: "Ok, how does that help you?"
Calvinist: "Because I'm one of the elect!"
Lutheran: Ok, how do you know that?"
Calvinist: "Because I trust in the cross."
Lutheran: "So you are trustning in something that you know is true only as long as you trust in it ... Weird! Sounds like your faith holds together by your knowledge of your trust. To me the cross say's it's done, It's never about my trust, but about the cross. Is it never a burden to you that you need knowledge of trust to know Jesus loves you and died for you? For me the cross is always before knowing, that's how I know Jesus loves me. Blessings my friend!
Calvinist: ...

God bless you DD!

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Hello Z,

Or perhaps this is the biblical prescription;
2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

12 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.

13 Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance;

zoidar said:

How do you know you got saved?

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Because I have assurance.

How do you know?

God Bless

Till all are one.

zoidar said:

DD, and what is to you the finished work of Christ? Sounds hard to trust in it, if you don't know it applies to you.

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How do you explain it as it applies to you?

God Bless

Till all are one.

zoidar said:

You have to say something more than that you have assurance. Tell me how you have assurance and I will tell you how I have assurance.

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Because I have the witness of the Holy Spirit in/with me.

"The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God," -Rom. 8:6

As far as how it applies to me, under conviction by the Holy Spirit, I made the confession, I repented, and I believe.

God Bless

Till all are one.

It seems to me that the driving force of Reformed ethos was often less about taking seriously the weightiness of God's law and human existence (and the consequent need to find peace), and more about putting down Catholic theology polemically. So when alot of apologists and pop-Calvinist articulate Reformed theology's "strengths", they are really often revealing weaknesses despite bits of prestadigitation and sleight of hand.

zoidar said:

Not all Christians have a specific moment of salvation. I would say that most don't. Are they less Christian, or are the maybe not Christians at all? I think they are.

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Some Calvinists would tend to say those folks are not in fact saved, they are tares. They were baptized into the covenant but God did not choose them. Many Calvinists consider conversion proof of election, which is why conversion testimonies are the woof and waff of Puritan piety.

Personally, I find this one of the harder aspects of the Calvinist ethos to take seriously, because I know there are some Christians that are extraordinarily blessed with a love of God from a young age. They are not tares- far from it.

FireDragon76 said:

Some Calvinists would tend to say those folks are not in fact saved, they are tares. They were baptized into the covenant but God did not choose them. Many Calvinists consider conversion proof of election, which is why conversion testimonies are the woof and waff of Puritan piety.

Personally, I find this one of the harder aspects of the Calvinist ethos to take seriously, because I know there are some Christians that are extraordinarily blessed with a love of God from a young age. They are not tares- far from it.

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I can say quite fairly that I have never heard that.

God Bless

Till all are one.

DeaconDean said:

I can say quite fairly that I have never heard that..

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Look up the Halfway Covenant. People wanted to join the church back in colonial New England and have their kids baptized, but they could not testify to a conversion experience. This was a Reformed society that was so inwardly focused and driven by dubious consciences that most people did not bother going to church because the criterion for genuine proof of conversion was so high. So I think it was one of Jonathan Edward's ancestors (grandfather?) who said he would meet these people halfway- they could not join the church, but their kids could be baptized.

From a Lutheran standpoint, this is crazy talk.

FireDragon76 said:

Look up the Halfway Covenant. People wanted to join the church back in colonial New England and have their kids baptized, but they could not testify to a conversion experience. This was a Reformed society that was so inwardly focused and driven by dubious consciences that most people did not bother going to church because the criterion for genuine proof of conversion was so high. So I think it was one of Jonathan Edward's ancestors (grandfather?) who said he would meet these people halfway- they could not join the church, but their kids could be baptized.

From a Lutheran standpoint, this is crazy talk.

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I read what it said, but the link I saw credited it to the Puritans.

"The Half-Way Covenant is a form of partial church membership created within the Congregational churches of colonial New England in 1662. It was promoted in particular by the Reverend Solomon Stoddard, who felt that the people of the English colonies were drifting away from their original religious purpose. First-generation settlers were beginning to die out, while their children and grandchildren often expressed less religious piety, and more desire for material things.

Full membership in the tax-supported Puritan church required an account of a conversion experience, and only persons in full membership could have their own children baptized.

Source

And Puritans Baptist were not in communion at that time.

"Baptists in Boston built a church in 1679 and the Puritans passed a law requiring a license to meet. Baptists believed they needn’t ask permission to do something God had commanded them to do, however. One Sabbath day, the congregants arrived to find their church doors nailed shut. The King of England even reminded the Puritans that the original reason they had gone to New England was to seek freedom of religion."

Early American Faith: Puritans vs. Baptists

One should read about Rodger Williams.

"Much obscurity hangs over the early life of Roger Williams, but he was probably the son of a merchant tailor of London, James Williams, and his wife Alice. He was born about 1607, and Sir Edward Coke, the great English lawyer, attracted by his promise, secured for him entrance to Sutton’s Hospital. Here he completed his preparatory studies and then entered the University of Cambridge, where he took his bachelor’s degree in 1627. He was offered several livings in the Church of England, but it does not appear that he was ever actually beneficed, lie was apparently ordained, since he is described on his arrival at Boston as “a godly minister.” He embraced Puritan principles, and it is even probable that he was a Separatist in principle before leaving England. He determined to leave England, and in 1631 landed in Boston, where he hoped to find greater religious freedom. He found the Puritans fully as intolerant as Laud, and was by no means satisfied with the half-way reformation that they were disposed to make. He saw the inconsistency of the New England theocracy, in whic the functions of the Church and State were so interblended that the identity of each was in danger of being lost. He had grasped the principle that the Church and the State should be entirely separate and independent each of the other. It is not at all probable that Williams had imbibed these notions from the English Baptists, or that he even knew of their holding such doctrines. At this time he was not, at any rate, an Anabaptist. He found no fault with the Congregational doctrine or discipline, but denounced the principle of a State Church, and upheld the right of soul liberty on natural and scriptural grounds alike."

Source

Anywho....

God Bless

Till all are one.

zoidar said:

One of the big problems with Calvinism is that you can't know that Jesus died for you without looking at your own faith. How can you trust in Jesus death for you on the cross without knowing he died for you? And the only way for a Calvinist to know for sure is checking his/her own faith. So to me Calvinism starts in the wrong end.

As a Lutheran everything starts at the cross. I know I'm redeemded because Jesus died for all men on the cross. That's the fact, that's where a Lutheran starts. Even if I can't find faith in myself I still know Jesus died for me, and that is a real blessing.

One day we all will lay there waiting for the end. In that moment I don't want there to be any doubt about the fact that Jesus has died for me. If that fact is depending on my faith, where can I find shelter if there is uncertainty in my heart?

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2 Corinthians 13:5 [Full Chapter]
Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?
--
Calvinists believe in limited atonement. Are you familiar with the concept?

DeaconDean said:

I read what it said, but the link I saw credited it to the Puritans.

"The Half-Way Covenant is a form of partial church membership created within the Congregational churches of colonial New England in 1662. It was promoted in particular by the Reverend Solomon Stoddard, who felt that the people of the English colonies were drifting away from their original religious purpose. First-generation settlers were beginning to die out, while their children and grandchildren often expressed less religious piety, and more desire for material things.

Full membership in the tax-supported Puritan church required an account of a conversion experience, and only persons in full membership could have their own children baptized.

Source

And Puritans Baptist were not in communion at that time.

"Baptists in Boston built a church in 1679 and the Puritans passed a law requiring a license to meet. Baptists believed they needn’t ask permission to do something God had commanded them to do, however. One Sabbath day, the congregants arrived to find their church doors nailed shut. The King of England even reminded the Puritans that the original reason they had gone to New England was to seek freedom of religion."

Early American Faith: Puritans vs. Baptists

One should read about Rodger Williams.

"Much obscurity hangs over the early life of Roger Williams, but he was probably the son of a merchant tailor of London, James Williams, and his wife Alice. He was born about 1607, and Sir Edward Coke, the great English lawyer, attracted by his promise, secured for him entrance to Sutton’s Hospital. Here he completed his preparatory studies and then entered the University of Cambridge, where he took his bachelor’s degree in 1627. He was offered several livings in the Church of England, but it does not appear that he was ever actually beneficed, lie was apparently ordained, since he is described on his arrival at Boston as “a godly minister.” He embraced Puritan principles, and it is even probable that he was a Separatist in principle before leaving England. He determined to leave England, and in 1631 landed in Boston, where he hoped to find greater religious freedom. He found the Puritans fully as intolerant as Laud, and was by no means satisfied with the half-way reformation that they were disposed to make. He saw the inconsistency of the New England theocracy, in whic the functions of the Church and State were so interblended that the identity of each was in danger of being lost. He had grasped the principle that the Church and the State should be entirely separate and independent each of the other. It is not at all probable that Williams had imbibed these notions from the English Baptists, or that he even knew of their holding such doctrines. At this time he was not, at any rate, an Anabaptist. He found no fault with the Congregational doctrine or discipline, but denounced the principle of a State Church, and upheld the right of soul liberty on natural and scriptural grounds alike."

Source

Anywho....

God Bless

Till all are one.

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Roger Williams was a really amazing man and I have the greatest respect for him.

zoidar said:

Yes, I don't think it's biblical.

Rom 5:18 So then, just as through one trespass, it is unto condemnation to all men, so also through one act of righteousness it is unto justification of life to all men.

We have a dialogue about it here: Predestination

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Do you believe in unlimited salvation?