The insecurity of Calvinism

Hammster

Psalm 144:1
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,176
25,219
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,727,340.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
:tearsofjoy: I didn't say faith is a weakness. I said if you need faith to know that Christ died for you then it's a weakness.
Oh, I'm sorry. Needing faith is a weakness.
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,592
18,513
Orlando, Florida
✟1,258,288.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
US-Democrat
:tearsofjoy: I didn't say faith is a weakness. I said if you need faith to know that Christ died for you then it's a weakness.

Right, that's where the conditionality potentially creeps in.
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,592
18,513
Orlando, Florida
✟1,258,288.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
US-Democrat
Can you explain this please?

The conditionality fits with looking to ones faith for assurance- if I have faith, then I can be assured that I am the elect. This is probably one reason than the Reformed churches have tended towards pietism, because in the end ones piety is the only thing that can distinguish the elect from the reprobate. Whereas Lutherans look to the external sacraments, what has been done to them and for them. It is less self-reflective, potentially.
 
Upvote 0

Hammster

Psalm 144:1
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,176
25,219
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,727,340.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
The conditionality fits with looking to ones faith for assurance- if I have faith, then I can be assured that I am the elect. This is probably one reason than the Reformed churches have tended towards pietism, because in the end ones piety is the only thing that can distinguish the elect from the reprobate. Whereas Lutherans look to the external sacraments, what has been done to them and for them. It is less self-reflective, potentially.
I think, then, you are missing the point. Scripture tells us that we are righteous by faith (trust in the finished work of Christ). We also know that this faith is not natural. It does not come from us. If it did, then we could please God in our natural state, and we know that is not possible. So when I say that I know that I am saved because I have faith, it's because I know apart from the regenerating work of the Spirit, I would have no faith at all.
 
Upvote 0

ToBeLoved

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 3, 2014
18,705
5,794
✟322,485.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
We also know that this faith is not natural. It does not come from us. If it did, then we could please God in our natural state, and we know that is not possible. So when I say that I know that I am saved because I have faith, it's because I know apart from the regenerating work of the Spirit, I would have no faith at all.
You are looking at the wrong thing for why we can not please God before we are saved, it is because of who our master is before we are made into a new creation and bought with the blood of Christ.

God's Word says that we have been bought for a price. A high price and that we change masters after we come to Christ. We go from having the devil as our default master to being bought by the blood of Christ and we change masters.

So, we cannot please God before we are saved, because God/Christ is not our master. After we are saved we change masters to Christ and are created a new creation in Him and are sealed in the New Covenant with the Holy Spirit of promise.

Before we are saved and change masters we are enemies of God in our sin.
 
Upvote 0

Hammster

Psalm 144:1
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,176
25,219
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,727,340.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
You are looking at the wrong thing for why we can not please God before we are saved, it is because of who our master is before we are made into a new creation and bought with the blood of Christ.

God's Word says that we have been bought for a price. A high price and that we change masters after we come to Christ. We go from having the devil as our default master to being bought by the blood of Christ and we change masters.

So, we cannot please God before we are saved, because God/Christ is not our master. After we are saved we change masters to Christ and are created a new creation in Him and are sealed in the New Covenant with the Holy Spirit of promise.

Before we are saved and change masters we are enemies of God in our sin.
This discussion really doesn't concern you as it's between Lutherans and Calvinists.
 
Upvote 0

ToBeLoved

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 3, 2014
18,705
5,794
✟322,485.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
This discussion really doesn't concern you as it's between Lutherans and Calvinists.
So what are the rules then in this subforum? Does the OP choose a denomination to discuss something with and then all other deominations are out of the conversation?
 
Upvote 0

Hammster

Psalm 144:1
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,176
25,219
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,727,340.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
So what are the rules then in this subforum? Does the OP choose a denomination to discuss something with and then all other deominations are out of the conversation?
You aren't necessarily out of the conversation. But you should post on topic. In other words, if you are going to post against the Calvinist position, you should do so in a way that a Lutheran would.
 
Upvote 0

ToBeLoved

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 3, 2014
18,705
5,794
✟322,485.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
You aren't necessarily out of the conversation. But you should post on topic. In other words, if you are going to post against the Calvinist position, you should do so in a way that a Lutheran would.
I believe that is the Lutheran position.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Hammster

Psalm 144:1
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,176
25,219
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,727,340.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
You are looking at the wrong thing for why we can not please God before we are saved, it is because of who our master is before we are made into a new creation and bought with the blood of Christ.

God's Word says that we have been bought for a price. A high price and that we change masters after we come to Christ. We go from having the devil as our default master to being bought by the blood of Christ and we change masters.

So, we cannot please God before we are saved, because God/Christ is not our master. After we are saved we change masters to Christ and are created a new creation in Him and are sealed in the New Covenant with the Holy Spirit of promise.

Before we are saved and change masters we are enemies of God in our sin.
Changing masters is pleasing to God. Apart from faith, we cannot please God.
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,592
18,513
Orlando, Florida
✟1,258,288.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
US-Democrat
I think, then, you are missing the point. Scripture tells us that we are righteous by faith (trust in the finished work of Christ). We also know that this faith is not natural. It does not come from us. If it did, then we could please God in our natural state, and we know that is not possible. So when I say that I know that I am saved because I have faith, it's because I know apart from the regenerating work of the Spirit, I would have no faith at all.

But what is the object of your faith? Is it faith itself, or Christ? For the Lutheran, the object of faith is always Christ.
 
  • Like
Reactions: zoidar
Upvote 0

Hammster

Psalm 144:1
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,176
25,219
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,727,340.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
But what is the object of your faith? Is it faith itself, or Christ? For the Lutheran, the object of faith is always Christ.
Of course it's Christ. I'm not sure why you'd think otherwise.
 
Upvote 0

Hammster

Psalm 144:1
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,176
25,219
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,727,340.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
Verses please that say faith
“And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:6‬ ‭NASB‬‬
 
  • Like
Reactions: ToBeLoved
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ToBeLoved

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 3, 2014
18,705
5,794
✟322,485.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
“And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:6‬ ‭NASB‬‬
Very good, I forgot about that one.
 
Upvote 0

ICONO'CLAST

Well-Known Member
Apr 2, 2005
1,902
781
new york
✟93,319.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
="zoidar,

[No but John 10 says that everyone can become his sheep, salvation is open to all men.]
John ten teaches no such thing .
["If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.”
/Joh 10:37-38]
This quote does not help your faulty idea.

The Sheep were given to the Son before creation,
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

DeaconDean

γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον
Jul 19, 2005
22,183
2,677
61
Gastonia N.C. (Piedmont of N.C.)
✟100,334.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I wonder though why both Jesus and his apostles warn the elect from falling away over and over again if it wasn't possible. I just quote one of many places...

Matt 18

18:1 "At that time the disciples came to Jesus ...

18:8 "If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell."

Do you take that scripture literally?

Its called a "hyperbole".

John Gill comments:

"And if thy right eye offend thee
Or "cause thee to offend", to stumble, and fall into sin. Our Lord has no regard here to near and dear relations seeking to alienate us from God and Christ, and hinder us in the pursuit of divine things; whose solicitations are to be rejected with the utmost indignation, and they themselves to be parted with, and forsaken, rather than complied with; which is the sense some give of the words: for both in this, and the following verse, respect is had only to the law of adultery; and to such members of the body, which often are the means of leading persons on to the breach of it; particularly the eye and hand. The eye is often the instrument of ensnaring the heart this way: hence the Jews have a F26 saying,

``whoever looks upon women, at the end comes into the hands of transgression.''


Mention is only made of the right eye; not but that the left may be an occasion of sinning, as well as the right; but that being most dear and valuable, is instanced in, and ordered to be parted with:
pluck it out, and cast it from thee:
which is not to be understood literally; for no man is obliged to mutilate any part of his body, to prevent sin, or on account of the commission of it; this is no where required, and if done, would be sinful, as in the case of Origen: but figuratively; and the sense is, that persons should make a covenant with their eyes, as Job did; and turn them away from beholding such objects, which may tend to excite impure thoughts and desires; deny themselves the gratification of the sense of seeing, or feeding the eyes with such sights, as are graceful to the flesh; and with indignation and contempt, reject, and avoid all opportunities and occasions of sinning; which the eye may be the instrument of, and lead unto:
for it is profitable for thee, that one of thy members should
perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
This is still a continuation of the figure here used; and the meaning is, that it will turn to better account, to lose all the carnal pleasures of the eye, or all those pleasing sights, which are grateful to a carnal heart, than, by enjoying them, to expose the whole man, body and soul, to everlasting destruction, in the fire of hell."

Source

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
Upvote 0