The insecurity of Calvinism

[zoidar]

One of the big problems with Calvinism is that you can't know that Jesus died for you without looking at your own faith. How can you trust in Jesus death for you on the cross without knowing he died for you? And the only way for a Calvinist to know for sure is checking his/her own faith. So to me Calvinism starts in the wrong end.

As a Lutheran everything starts at the cross. I know I'm redeemded because Jesus died for all men on the cross. That's the fact, that's where a Lutheran starts. Even if I can't find faith in myself I still know Jesus died for me, and that is a real blessing.

One day we all will lay there waiting for the end. In that moment I don't want there to be any doubt about the fact that Jesus has died for me. If that fact is depending on my faith, where can I find shelter if there is uncertainty in my heart?

 

[eldios]

One of the big problems with Calvinism is that you can't know that Jesus died for you without looking at your own faith. How can you trust in Jesus death for you on the cross without knowing he died for you? And the only way for a Calvinist to know for sure is checking his/her own faith. So to me Calvinism starts in the wrong end.

As a Lutheran everything starts at the cross. I know I'm redeemded because Jesus died for all men on the cross. That's the fact, that's where a Lutheran starts. Even if I can't find faith in myself I still know Jesus died for me, and that is a real blessing.

One day we all will lay there waiting for the end. In that moment I don't want there to be any doubt about the fact that Jesus has died for me. If that fact is depending on my faith, where can I find shelter if there is uncertainty in my heart?

As a body birthed into this world by parents who called themselves Lutherans, I know what they believe in. As a servant of God who has testified to His knowledge called Christ, I know everything else that Lutherans or any other Christian do not understand.

 

[Hammster]

One of the big problems with Calvinism is that you can't know that Jesus died for you without looking at your own faith. How can you trust in Jesus death for you on the cross without knowing he died for you? And the only way for a Calvinist to know for sure is checking his/her own faith. So to me Calvinism starts in the wrong end.

As a Lutheran everything starts at the cross. I know I'm redeemded because Jesus died for all men on the cross. That's the fact, that's where a Lutheran starts. Even if I can't find faith in myself I still know Jesus died for me, and that is a real blessing.

One day we all will lay there waiting for the end. In that moment I don't want there to be any doubt about the fact that Jesus has died for me. If that fact is depending on my faith, where can I find shelter if there is uncertainty in my heart?

Where does justification fit within your theology? "Saved" is a word that has various definitions within soteriology.

 

[RC1970]

One of the big problems with Calvinism is that you can't know that Jesus died for you without looking at your own faith. How can you trust in Jesus death for you on the cross without knowing he died for you? And the only way for a Calvinist to know for sure is checking his/her own faith. So to me Calvinism starts in the wrong end.

As a Lutheran everything starts at the cross. I know I'm redeemded because Jesus died for all men on the cross. That's the fact, that's where a Lutheran starts. Even if I can't find faith in myself I still know Jesus died for me, and that is a real blessing.

One day we all will lay there waiting for the end. In that moment I don't want there to be any doubt about the fact that Jesus has died for me. If that fact is depending on my faith, where can I find shelter if there is uncertainty in my heart?

If your presuppositions make feel secure, then more power to ya. But, here is a fact for you to consider;

Jesus said:

"I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep." ~ John 10:14-15

Now, If the Lutheran view is correct, then Jesus' sheep must be "all men". However, if you read all of John chapter 10, you will see that can not be true.

Read carefully, and think clearly.

 

[HereIStand]

One of the big problems with Calvinism is that you can't know that Jesus died for you without looking at your own faith. How can you trust in Jesus death for you on the cross without knowing he died for you? And the only way for a Calvinist to know for sure is checking his/her own faith. So to me Calvinism starts in the wrong end.

As a Lutheran everything starts at the cross. I know I'm redeemded because Jesus died for all men on the cross. That's the fact, that's where a Lutheran starts. Even if I can't find faith in myself I still know Jesus died for me, and that is a real blessing.

One day we all will lay there waiting for the end. In that moment I don't want there to be any doubt about the fact that Jesus has died for me. If that fact is depending on my faith, where can I find shelter if there is uncertainty in my heart?

I've heard of this valid criticism of Calvinism, and corresponding strength of Lutheran theology. It's true that the cross should always be our central focus, especially in times of doubts about our faith. However, parts of the Bible (especially the New Testament) are focused on a believer honestly examining his life choices. We can't look past ourselves to the cross, if we're knowingly living an unrepentant lifestyle.

 

[ToBeLoved]

If your presuppositions make feel secure, then more power to ya. But, here is a fact for you to consider;

Jesus said:

"I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep." ~ John 10:14-15

Now, If the Lutheran view is correct, then Jesus' sheep must be "all men". However, if you read all of John chapter 10, you will see that can not be true.

Read carefully, and think clearly.

How is starting with Jesus in faith saying that Jesus sheep is all men?

Is this the best that Calvinism can do?

I like your plea to think clearly. Have you thought it through?

 

[DarthNeo]

What if you WANT to be saved, but you aren't CHOSEN...

That would suck!

 

[Hammster]

What if you WANT to be saved, but you aren't CHOSEN...

That would suck!

It would never happen.

 

[Tangible]

It's the difference between faith in Christ alone, versus faith in our faith.

 

[zoidar]

Where does justification fit within your theology? "Saved" is a word that has various definitions within soteriology.

Trust in what Jesus has done.

 

[zoidar]

If your presuppositions make feel secure, then more power to ya. But, here is a fact for you to consider;

Jesus said:

"I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep." ~ John 10:14-15

Now, If the Lutheran view is correct, then Jesus' sheep must be "all men". However, if you read all of John chapter 10, you will see that can not be true.

Read carefully, and think clearly.

In one sense he lays down for his life for the sheep, because only those that becomes his sheep will be saved. In the other sense he lays down his life for all men, since he died for the whole world (John 3:16)

 

[Hammster]

Trust in what Jesus has done.

And how is that different from what you say Calvinists believe?

 

[Hammster]

In one sense he lays down for his life for the sheep, because only those that becomes his sheep will be saved. In the other sense he lays down his life for all men, since he died for the whole world (John 3:16)

That would be fine if the scripture actually said that. But nothing in John 10 says that He died for potential sheep.

 

[Honoluluwindow]

What if you WANT to be saved, but you aren't CHOSEN...

That would suck!

Isn't that the case with the majority of people in the world?

 

[RC1970]

In one sense he lays down for his life for the sheep, because only those that becomes his sheep will be saved. In the other sense he lays down his life for all men, since he died for the whole world (John 3:16)

He lays down his life for the sheep. And, yes, the sheep are the one's who will believe.

Sheep = believer

Now, if we translate that to John 3:16 we get this:

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him (the sheep) should not perish but have eternal life."

Nothing here about non-sheep.

If you read John 10:16 you see what is meant by "the world":

"And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd."

So, it's not just the sheep of Israel, but the sheep from everywhere (the world).

 

[GillDouglas]

What if you WANT to be saved, but you aren't CHOSEN...

That would suck!

If you WANT to be saved, you have been chosen.

 

[DarthNeo]

Isn't that the case with the majority of people in the world?

Most people in the world could care less about being saved...

 

[Honoluluwindow]

Most people in the world could care less about being saved...

Muslim, Mormon, jehobo witness etc etc?

 

[Tangible]

This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

[ToBeLoved]

.
If you read John 10:16 you see what is meant by "the world":

"And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd."

So, it's not just the sheep of Israel, but the sheep from everywhere (the world).

That is not even what this verse is saying or who it is about.

The two flocks are Jews and the Gentiles. Gentiles are the ones that will hear His voice.

Notice that Both are SHEEP pens. Two sheep pens. Not of the same flock.