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The insecurity of Calvinism

DeaconDean

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Yes, I don't think it's biblical.

Rom 5:18
So then, just as through one trespass, it is unto condemnation to all men, so also through one act of righteousness it is unto justification of life to all men.

We have a dialogue about it here: Predestination

A word of warning to anybody who believes in "Predestination".

This is a thread in the "General Theology" section. Unless you are fully prepared to defend yourselves and beliefs against some Non-Denoms, Catholics, and Orthodox members, do not participate in this thread!

I have learned the hard way not to get in these types of discussions in GT.

Maybe in the Soteriology section, but never in GT.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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Roger Williams was a really amazing man and I have the greatest respect for him.

He really was.

I learned about him in seminary.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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bbbbbbb

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A word of warning to anybody who believes in "Predestination".

This is a thread in the "General Theology" section. Unless you are fully prepared to defend yourselves and beliefs against some Non-Denoms, Catholics, and Orthodox members, do not participate in this thread!

I have learned the hard way not to get in these types of discussions in GT.

Maybe in the Soteriology section, but never in GT.

God Bless

Till all are one.

This is excellent advice and one reason why I am not taking an active part in this thread.
 
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zoidar

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A word of warning to anybody who believes in "Predestination".

I understand you fullly DD. To me it's important because I want to defend God's love to all men through the cross. If Jesus didn't die for all men, what proof do we have that God loves all men?

I'm not against predestination in the way that God chose and predestined all those that trust in him to eternal life. I believe that the group of individuals that is in Christ is predestined, and that whoever believes in him will be part of that group of elect. So I don't believe God handpicked some, but the whole group, which anyone can enter through faith.
 
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zoidar

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Is this evil from Satan (the devil made me do it, from humans, or from some other source?

Evil in man through the Devil turns him away from God.

God calls all men to repentance, everywhere. God's will is for all men to be saved. The good will of God is not a limiting will, it's a will for all men.

The Devil wants no one to repent, and works his butt off to try to get as many as possible away from God's will.

So evil is the limiting factor, the evil in the Devil, the evil in man, the evil in the world.
 
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DeaconDean

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I understand you fullly DD. To me it's important because I want to defend God's love to all men through the cross. If Jesus didn't die for all men, what proof do we have that God loves all men?

So what are you arguing for? Unlimited Atonement?

I'm not against predestination in the way that God chose and predestined all those that trust in him to eternal life. I believe that the group of individuals that is in Christ is predestined, and that whoever believes in him will be part of that group of elect. So I don't believe God handpicked some, but the whole group, which anyone can enter through faith.

Here again, you have a construed view of what "predestination" is.

In the first place, there are only 3 verses in the New Testament where "predestine" is used:

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren." -Rom. 8:29 (KJV)

"Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,..In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:" -Eph. 1:5, 11 (KJV)

In these three verses, none of then speak of being "predestined" to salvation.

Let us look at the definition given in Kittels dictionary. From Rom. 8:29, we have the word: "prowpisev". From the root word:"proorizw, which means: to limit or mark out beforehand, predestine.

According to the dictionary (Kittel's), K. L. Schmidt comments:

"This comparatively rare and late word is used in the Greek Bible only six times in the NT in the sense to foreordain to predestinate. Since God is eternal and has ordained everything before time, proopizein is a stronger form of opizein (to set bounds to). The synonyms and textual history show that the reference in proginwskien is the same. Rom. 8:29; ouv proginw kai prowpisen summorfouv tnv eikonov tou niou autou, Rom. 8:30; ous...prowpisen (A: proegnw) toutov kai ekalesen. The omniscient God has determined everything in advance, both persons and things in salvation history, with Jesus Christ as the goal. When Herod and Pilate work together with the Gentiles and the mob against Christ, it may be said: h boulh [sou] prowrisen genesqai, Acts 4:28. Herein lies the hidden wisdom of God in a mystery, hn prowrisen o qeoV pro twn aiwnwn eiV doxan hmwn, 1 Cor. 2:7, cf. IV, 819. The goal of our predestination is divine sonship through Jesus Christ: proorisaV hmaV eiV uioqesian dia ihsou cristou , Eph. 1:5. That we have our inheritance in Christ rests in the fact that we are proopisqentev kata proqesin tou ta panta energountov, Eph. 1:11.

Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Edited by: Gerhard Kittel, Translated by: Geoffery W. Bromiley, Vol. V, proopizw, p. 456, K. L. Schmidt.

So ask yourself this: In Romans 8:29, what are we "predestinated" to? To be conformed to the image of His Son.

In Eph. 1:5, what are we "predestinated" to? Adoption.

In Eph. 1:11, what are we "predestinated" to? An inheritance.

And, I don't agree with your view of whom the "elect" are.

You argue for the Arminian position that we only become one of the elect after we repent and believe.

Actually Acts 13:48 destroys that position.

Its not my duty to know who the elect are, It is however, my duty to preach the gospel so the "elect" can hear, repent and believe, and so that the non-elect are left with no excuse.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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kepha31

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Eph. 1:5 - Paul teaches that God “predestined” us in love to be His sons through Jesus Christ. "Predestination" means that God knows what we will do before we do it (it does not mean that God determines what we do; otherwise, we would have no freewill). Predestination is taken from the Greek word "prooridzo" which means to know or declare in advance by God’s foreknowledge. See, for example, 1 Peter 1:2 where Peter writes about the “elect according to the foreknowledge of God.” The terms “predestination” and “the elect” always refer to God’s knowledge (not human knowledge) because God is outside of time (and humans cannot predict the future).

There are two types of "predestination," to grace and to glory. In this verse, Paul is teaching about predestination to grace, which means becoming a Christian.

1 Pet. 1:1-2 – Paul teaches about being destined by God for obedience to Christ. This is another example of predestination to grace. But there is also predestination to glory.

Rom. 8:29-30 – Paul also writes that we are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. Now Paul is writing about predestination to glory, which means not only becoming a faithful Christian during our lives, but persevering to the end by conforming our will to Christ's will.

1 Cor. 15:49 – Paul writes that we are conformed in His image at the resurrection, when we shall bear the image of the man of heaven. These are the people who were predestined to glory.

Rev. 3:5 – Jesus warns that He can blot out the names that are in the book of life. (how did they get their names in the book in the first place?) This refers to those currently, not ultimately, justified (those who are predestined to grace, but not to glory).

Eph. 1:5; 1 Peter 1:2; Rom. 8:29-30; 1 Cor. 15:49 - therefore, predestination is either to grace (which we could lose) or to glory (which we cannot lose). As alluded to above, some non-Catholics confuse the definition of "predestination" (which means God knows what we will do before we do it) and "predetermination" (the erroneous belief that God determines what we will do). But God does not author evil. We choose evil by our own freewill.

Ezek. 18:23-24, 32 - God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Our death is our freewill, failing to respond to His grace. God does not predetermine certain people to hell. God also does not predetermine certain "elect" people to heaven. We all, as God's children, have been given the grace we need to be saved, but we can decide to reject God's grace.
 
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DeaconDean

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"Predestination" means that God knows what we will do before we do it (it does not mean that God determines what we do; otherwise, we would have no freewill). Predestination is taken from the Greek word "prooridzo" which means to know or declare in advance by God’s foreknowledge. See, for example, 1 Peter 1:2 where Peter writes about the “elect according to the foreknowledge of God.”

Actually...no.

You are confusing the Greek word for "foreknow" with "predestine".

I have already given the definition for "predestine" above.

But I'll repeat it here:

"This comparatively rare and late word is used in the Greek Bible only six times in the NT in the sense to foreordain to predestinate. Since God is eternal and has ordained everything before time, proopizein is a stronger form of opizein (to set bounds to). The synonyms and textual history show that the reference in proginwskien is the same. Rom. 8:29; ouv proginw kai prowpisen summorfouv tnv eikonov tou niou autou, Rom. 8:30; ous...prowpisen (A: proegnw) toutov kai ekalesen. The omniscient God has determined everything in advance, both persons and things in salvation history, with Jesus Christ as the goal. When Herod and Pilate work together with the Gentiles and the mob against Christ, it may be said: h boulh [sou] prowrisen genesqai, Acts 4:28. Herein lies the hidden wisdom of God in a mystery, hn prowrisen o qeoV pro twn aiwnwn eiV doxan hmwn, 1 Cor. 2:7, cf. IV, 819. The goal of our predestination is divine sonship through Jesus Christ: proorisaV hmaV eiV uioqesian dia ihsou cristou , Eph. 1:5. That we have our inheritance in Christ rests in the fact that we are proopisqentev kata proqesin tou ta panta energountov, Eph. 1:11.

Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Edited by: Gerhard Kittel, Translated by: Geoffery W. Bromiley, Vol. V, proopizw, p. 456, K. L. Schmidt."

Predestine means a boundary has been set. "(to set bounds to)" And Romans 8:29, Eph. 1:5, 11 tells us what these boundaries are.

The Greek word for "foreknow" is as follows.

Lets also refer to Rudolf Bultmann's work in this area:

"In the NT, "proginwskein" is referred to God. His foreknowledge, however, is an election or foreordination of His people (Rom. 8:29; 11:2) or Christ (1 Pet. 1:20) (> ginwskw, 698, 706). In Pastor Hermae, mandata, 4, 3, 4 it simply means God's foreknowledge (cf. prognwstv in 2 Cl. 9:9). On the basis of prophecy the word "proginwskein" can be used of believers in 2 Pet. 3:17, also as Pastor Hermae, similitudines, 7,5 > eklegw. Another possible meaning in Greek is that of knowing earlier, i.e., than the time speaking (cf. Demosthenes of Athens, 29, 58; Aristotle, Rhetorica, II, 21, p. 1394b, 11; Josephus, Bella Judiacum, 6,8). This is found in Acts 26:5, where the meaning is strengthened by the addition of "anwqen." In Justin God's "proginwskein' is Hid foreknowledge (Apol. I, 28, 2 etc.) and the "proegnwsmenoi" are believers (Apol. I, 45, 1 etc.). The polemic against determinism, however, shows that the OT view has been abandoned (Dial., 140, 4). As One who simply knows beforehand, God is called "prognwstv" in Apol., I, 44, 11 etc. as is also Christ in Dial., 35, 7; 82, 1. There is also reference to prophetic foreknowledge in Apol., I, 43, 1; 49, 6 etc. Tatian, of Syria, in Oratio ad Graecos, 19, 3, speaks of Apollo in the same terms, so that what we have here is the Greek understanding."

Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Edited by: Gerhard Kittel, Translated by: Geoffery W. Bromiley, Vol. V, "prognwskein", p. 457, Rudolph Bultmann commenting.

Sorry, your definitions are wrong.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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zoidar

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So what are you arguing for? Unlimited Atonement?

Sure! It's not only about who will be saved, but whom Jesus came to save ... The cross is all about God's LOVE for all men. When you know God LOVES people so much, then how can you not pray for people, how can you not talk about Jesus?
 
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DeaconDean

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Not at all! It's not only about who will be saved, but whom Jesus came to save ... The cross is all about God's LOVE for all men. When you know God LOVES people so much, then how can you not pray for people, how can you not talk about Jesus?

Never said you shouldn't.

Like I said:

Its not my duty to know who the elect are, I witness and preach the gospel for two reasons. To reach the elect, and so that no man is without excuse.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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zoidar

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Sorry, I missread your post. I first thought you wrote "unlimited salvation". That's why I changed my post. Of course I believe in and argue for unlimited atonement.

I believe everyone can enter the sheep-pen, the group of elect are chosen, but not who will enter the group of elect.
 
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zoidar

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Logically I don't think it's possible that God has chosen some specific men to be elect since you choose who you will pray for and who you will tell about Jesus. Unless everything is predetermined, even what you will have for breakfast. And in that case there is no free will at all...

So who the elect are must coinside with free choices and free will.
 
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