The insecurity of Calvinism

[sdowney717]

John 1, all those who received Him were born of God, not of the will of man, not of the will of the flesh, which is their natural state. Evolutionists believe in natural selection by the flesh, and so also many Christians believe they are in charge of their spirituality with God by natural circumstance, but it is not a natural selection but a supernatural selection and that choice is God's alone.

John 1
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Jesus here in Luke 10 says the exact thing, only those HE wills to know God and Christ are going to know them and NONE else will. That means salvation of a soul is up to the LORD and not the will of a man. All this is contrary to the very popular ideas today about true spirituality.

21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. 22 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”

Those Christ does not WILL to know God remain ignorant of who Christ is and they will never come to Christ because they have not been give to Christ by the Father..

 

[sdowney717]

The theme of the OP, that Calvinism is insecurity with God is false, actually with Calvinism, if your of those saved, then your saved for all eternity having an eternal life that can not be lost because salvation is of the Lord.

Jonah 2:8-10New King James Version (NKJV)
8 “Those who regard worthless idols
Forsake their own Mercy.
9 But I will sacrifice to You
With the voice of thanksgiving;
I will pay what I have vowed.
Salvation is of the Lord.”

10 So the Lord spoke to the fish, and it vomited Jonah onto dry land.

 

[Hammster]

I will quote my earlier post here ... Do calvinists always forget to read the second part of that text? Jesus is telling them how to become his sheep.

That does not say anything about becoming a sheep.

 

[Hammster]

As I used trust and faith, trust is more like having focus on someone, faith is more like that which has trust in someone. If you ask someone: "Do you have faith?" You tend to look at yourself. If you ask someone: "Do you have trust?" Then you tend to look at the person you trust.

The difference between us is that I know that Jesus died for me because he died for all men. You know that Jesus died for you because you have faith, because you trust in him. So I start with the fact, even if I have a day when I don't know if I believe, I can always turn back to the cross. It's done! It doesn't matter if I find faith in myself or not, the fact that Jesus died for me has nothing to do with me at all. That is where I find comfort. That's is how I so fully can trust in him.

Where do you turn if you don't know if you believe?

So because you have these definitions, this somehow disproves Calvinism? I'm sorry, but having faith and having trust are the same thing.

You say you start with the fact that Jesus died for you. How do you know? What info do you have? Do you have faith that the info is correct?

 

[Hammster]

What I want scriptural support for is that we are sheep before we follow Jesus.

Pretty much all of John 10. Jesus identifies those who are following and those who will follow as His sheep. Anywhere sheep are metaphors for people, the people are always His. He lays down His life for the sheep, not the goats.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Jesus here in Luke 10 says the exact thing, only those HE wills to know God and Christ are going to know them and NONE else will. That means salvation of a soul is up to the LORD and not the will of a man. All this is contrary to the very popular ideas today about true spirituality.

21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. 22 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”

This is a very specific situation. Jesus did not want who He was to be known until a certain time, but this was only to His disciples that the Father let them know.

I don't think this set of verses supports Calvinism at all because it is not even about salvation but Christ's life here on earth.

 

[zoidar]

Jesus also said this.
John 6
35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.

36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.

37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

"Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God." /Joh 12:42-43

God had given them faith in Jesus, yet they chose to turn him away because they loved more the approval of men than of God.

 

[sdowney717]

"Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God." /Joh 12:42-43

God had given them faith in Jesus, yet they chose to turn him away because they loved more the approval of men than of God.

But they did not confess Him! So they were not His people. They did not have faith in Christ, to have faith in Christ means you have entrusted yourself to Him and the salvation He gives, they did not do that.

For the saved they do this, from a transformed heart, for out of the heart, the mouth speaks. Since they did not confess Him, they show they were not new creatures - creations in Christ. What they spoke were evil things about Christ, which also shows the evil natural heart still within them.

Romans 10
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

However we don't know what happened to them after the resurrection, maybe they did confess Him then. None can know the future except God who has determined what the future will be.

 

[sdowney717]

About these rulers are spoken many negative things after the resurrection in Acts. If you read up on what they did to the apostles after what they did to Christ.
Here are a few to look into.

Acts 3:17
“Yet now, brethren, I know that you did it in ignorance, as did also your rulers.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Acts 4:5
[ Addressing the Sanhedrin ] And it came to pass, on the next day, that their rulers, elders, and scribes,
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Acts 4:8
Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers of the people and elders of Israel:
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Acts 4:26
The kings of the earth took their stand, And the rulers were gathered together Against the Lord and against His Christ.’
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Acts 13:15
And after the reading of the Law and the Prophets, the rulers of the synagogue sent to them, saying, “Men and brethren, if you have any word of exhortation for the people, say on.”
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Acts 13:27
For those who dwell in Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they did not know Him, nor even the voices of the Prophets which are read every Sabbath, have fulfilled them in condemning Him.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Acts 14:5
And when a violent attempt was made by both the Gentiles and Jews, with their rulers, to abuse and stone them,

 

[zoidar]

Exactly, the Pharisees.

The hirelings.

"The first half of John 10:1-21 presents the relationship between the shepherd and his sheep. Jesus had remained in Jerusalem after the Feast of Tabernacles. There is no indication there was a gap in time and it appears this discourse takes place after John 9 when Jesus healed the man born blind. In verse 20, those who heard this discourse were aware of Jesus' healing the blind man. This shows this message followed His confrontation with the Jews in Chapter 9. The second part of John 10:22-42 occurs two or three months later at the Feast of Dedication.

Jesus continues His confrontation of the Jewish leaders of the scribes and Pharisee who had set themselves up and the shepherds of the nation of Israel. Jesus challenges their claims as spiritual shepherds by explaining the true work and nature of the illegitimate shepherd. In spite of the His miracles, these false shepherds of Israel had vehemently rejected Jesus' message and proclamation that He was the Messiah and the Son of God. Their actions showed they had no concern for the spiritual welfare of Israel, but where hirelings who used the sheep for their personal benefit."

Source

"To make his point Jesus uses an argument from the lesser to the greater, a very common form of argument in the ancient world, not least among the rabbis. He compares the people who are called gods to himself, the Son of God. They merely received the word of God, whereas he is the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world (v. 36). Here is a succinct summary of the central truth of his identity, which has been emphasized throughout this Gospel. He is using the language of an agent (see note on 5:21), but the implication is that he existed with the Father before coming into the world. Thus, he is putting himself in the category of the law that was given by God rather than in the category of one of the recipients of that law. By saying he was set apart ("consecrated," hagiazo) he is claiming a status similar to the temple, whose reconsecration these opponents are celebrating at this feast.
What he means by the title Son of God goes beyond anything they had thought before, but it is not a denial of the truths of Scripture. Indeed, the Scripture itself, as illustrated by Psalm 82:6, contains hints of such a revelation, and the Scripture cannot be broken (v. 35); the Scripture cannot be kept from fulfillment (Brown 1966:404). This parenthetical comment spoken by Jesus shows how important this line of argument is for Jesus and John. But, as with all other arguments, it only makes sense if the listener is open to entertaining the truth of who Jesus is.

So the Scriptures indicate that they should not be put off by his claims and therefore should be open to the evidence of the deeds he has done. Jesus presses this line of evidence: Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles (vv. 37-38; cf. 5:19-28). His deeds are like the deeds of God, both in power and in graciousness. Miracles alone are not enough to confirm the truth of one who speaks for God (see comment on 9:33). But the point of these signs is not simply that they are powerful or awesome or supernatural but that they are in keeping with God's own character--they manifest his gracious love.

His conclusion again transcends the category of agent: that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father (v. 38). They are standing there with rocks in their hands (though perhaps not, since the rocks used for stoning were large; cf. m. Sanhedrin 6:4), and he is appealing to them to accept the evidence of their senses, as witnessed to by the Scriptures, that he is uniquely related to God. Again we see the antinomy between divine sovereignty and human responsibility. These are the folk Jesus said could not believe because they were not of his sheep (v. 26), but here he is appealing to them to believe. The Gospel is to be shared with everyone, even persecutors, for who knows--one may turn out to be a Saul (Acts 9:1-19).

But the appeal is in vain at this point: Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp (v. 39). They had not grasped his message so they tried to grasp him to kill him. "They failed to apprehend Him, because they lacked the hand of faith" (Augustine In John 48.11). The Father who is greater than all will protect those who believe in Jesus (v. 29), so how much more will he protect Jesus himself."

Source

So here again, I do not see anywhere in Jn. 10:37-38 that:

" John 10 says that everyone can become his sheep, salvation is open to all men."

Jesus was addressing a particular group that would not heed to Him no matter what.

God Bless

Till all are one.

"The second part of John 10:22-42 occurs two or three months later at the Feast of Dedication."

In John 10:26 Jesus says:

"you do not believe because you are not of My sheep."

It's the same people he is talking to in John 10:37-38

"If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father."

Tell me one thing, if the jews would believe that the Father was in him, and he in the Father. Would they believe in him or not?

Jesus wanted them to believe in him, like you say:

"here he is appealing to them to believe"

Acutually he was telling them exactly HOW to believe in him: "believe the works"

And he knew they were not his sheep, right. And why would he do this if they couldn't become his sheep? That would be a totally ridicolous and meaningless thing to do.

 

[sdowney717]

"The second part of John 10:22-42 occurs two or three months later at the Feast of Dedication."

In John 10:26 Jesus says:

"you do not believe because you are not of My sheep."

It's the same people he is talking to in John 10:37-38

"If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father."

Tell me one thing, if the jews would believe that the Father was in him, and he in the Father. Would they believe in him or not?

Jesus wanted them to believe in him, like you say:

"here he is appealing to them to believe"

And he knew they were not his sheep, right. And why would he do this if they couldn't become his sheep? That would be a totally ridicolous and meaningless thing to do.

Christ said His salvation was going to be for the whole world of mankind, not just the jew, and only those the Father has given to Him will come to Him, you fail to acknowledge this.
John 6
35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”

 

[zoidar]

But they did not confess Him! So they were not His people. They did not have faith in Christ, to have faith in Christ means you have entrusted yourself to Him and the salvation He gives, they did not do that.

I fully agree to that part. They were believing in him, but they didn't want to trust him for their salvation. That's a choice they made. They could have trusted in him, but they chose not to.

I meant they had been given enough belief (maybe I used the word faith in a wrong way) to choose.

 

[DeaconDean]

The theme of the OP, that Calvinism is insecurity with God is false, actually with Calvinism, if your of those saved, then your saved for all eternity having an eternal life that can not be lost because salvation is of the Lord.

Exactly!

There is no insecurity with Calvinism.

The OP's title is misleading.

What is the "P" in T.U.L.I.P?

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

"The second part of John 10:22-42 occurs two or three months later at the Feast of Dedication."

In John 10:26 Jesus says:

"you do not believe because you are not of My sheep."

It's the same people he is talking to in John 10:37-38

"If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father."

Tell me one thing, if the jews would believe that the Father was in him, and he in the Father. Would they believe in him or not?

Jesus wanted them to believe in him, like you say:

"here he is appealing to them to believe"

Acutually he was telling them exactly HOW to believe in him: "believe the works"

And he knew they were not his sheep, right. And why would he do this if they couldn't become his sheep? That would be a totally ridicolous and meaningless thing to do.

Why do you repeat what I say and then question what I say by repeating it?

The second part of John 10:22-42 occurs two or three months later at the Feast of Dedication.

Sound familiar?

Jesus continues His confrontation of the Jewish leaders of the scribes and Pharisee who had set themselves up and the shepherds of the nation of Israel. Jesus challenges their claims as spiritual shepherds by explaining the true work and nature of the illegitimate shepherd. In spite of the His miracles, these false shepherds of Israel had vehemently rejected Jesus' message and proclamation that He was the Messiah and the Son of God. Their actions showed they had no concern for the spiritual welfare of Israel, but where hirelings who used the sheep for their personal benefit."

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

One of the big problems with Calvinism is that you can't know that Jesus died for you without looking at your own faith. How can you trust in Jesus death for you on the cross without knowing he died for you?

Lets look at the OP's opening statement for just a second.

"You can't know that Jesus died for you without looking at your own faith."

The very first statement is false. If you start with a false assumption, then every result afterwards is false.

Modern day math taught in school will tell you that there is a mathematical way to say 1+1=5.

If Einstein had started his equation with e=mc3, then we might not be where we are today.

Man is not born with the kind of faith that God requires.

Scriptures tell us:

"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;" -Heb. 12:2 (KJV)

So where does faith come from?

"God gives faith because of His grace and mercy, because He loves us (Ephesians 4—5). Faith comes from God in the form of a gift (Ephesians 2:8).

A gift is not earned by some good deed or kind word, and it is not given because the giver expects a gift in return—under any of those conditions, a gift would not be a gift. The Bible emphasizes that faith is a gift because God deserves all of the glory for our salvation. If the receiver of faith could do anything whatsoever to deserve or earn the gift, that person would have every right to boast (Ephesians 2:9). But all such boasting is excluded (Romans 3:27). God wants Christians to understand they have done nothing to earn faith, it’s only because of what Christ did on the cross that God gives anyone faith (Ephesians 2:5, 16)."

Source

And to prove it, I cite:

"And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief." -Mk. 9:24

Theologian John Gill comments:

"Lord, I believe, help thou mine unbelief;
not forward, but out of the way: he found in himself some small degree of faith in the power of Christ, but it was mixed with much unbelief, through the greatness of the child's disorder; and therefore desires it might be removed from him, and he might be helped against it: he saw it was not in his own power to believe; nor had he strength of himself to oppose his unbelief; but that both faith must be given him, and power against unbelief. The Syriac version renders it, "help", (ytwnmyh twryoxl) , "the defect of my faith": till up that which is lacking in it, it is very deficient, Lord, increase it; and the Arabic and Ethiopic translate thus, "help the weakness of my faith". He found his faith very weak, he desires it might be strengthened, that he might be strong in faith, and give glory to God; and in this way belief is helped, or men helped against it: every believer, more or less, at one time or another, finds himself in this man's case; and also that it is necessary to make use of the same petition; for faith is but imperfect in this life, and often very weak and defective in its exercise."

Source

I also want to quote from the Greek:

In Mark 11:22, the Greek scriptures say:

"ecete pistin qeou" while the KJV rendered it "Have faith in God", a proper rendering would be: "have the faith of God".

Did you get that?

Jesus told us that we should have the faith of God! We should have the same faith that God does.

"qeou" in the Greek is in the genetive case which translates out as "of God".

Our word for faith here "pistin" is in the accusitive which translates out as "the faith".

To say that man is born with this "kind" of faith is outragious.

Faith is a gift, and we use this gift as an instrument by which we receive Christ.

Plain and simple.

Faith does not look inward, it looks upward. Actually, Dwight L. Moody said:

"Faith is an outward look, not an inward look."

Granted each and everyone of us has moments of doubt. But somehow, our faith in God gets us through.

If your looking at your faith, your looking in the wrong place and your doomed to fail.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[zoidar]

Exactly!

There is no insecurity with Calvinism.

The OP's title is misleading.

What is the "P" in T.U.L.I.P?

God Bless

Till all are one.

I wonder though why both Jesus and his apostles warn the elect from falling away over and over again if it wasn't possible. I just quote one of many places...

Matt 18

18:1 "At that time the disciples came to Jesus ...

18:8 "If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell."

 

[zoidar]

The second part of John 10:22-42 occurs two or three months later at the Feast of Dedication.

So? Jesus wanted them to turn around and be his sheep. In John 10:22-42, where does it say that Jesus is accusing them of being false shepherds? I don't see it at all. He is accusing them of not believing in him, not of being false shepherds, he has allready done that in John 10:1-21.

 

[zoidar]

Lets look at the OP's opening statement for just a second.

"You can't know that Jesus died for you without looking at your own faith."

The very first statement is false. If you start with a false assumption, then every result afterwards is false.

You can look just at the cross for knowing he died for you, but not at the same time be a consequent calvinist. Because the cross ALONE can never afirm that Jesus died for you unless he has died for all men. There must also be faith to know for a calvinist, and that is a great weakness.

 

[Hammster]

You can look just at the cross for knowing he died for you, but not at the same time be a consequent calvinist. Because the cross ALONE can never afirm that Jesus died for you unless he has died for all men. There must also be faith to know for a calvinist, and that is a great weakness.

Faith is a weakness. That's a first.

 

[zoidar]

Faith is a weakness. That's a first.

I didn't say faith is a weakness. I said if you need faith to know that Christ died for you then it's a weakness.