The insecurity of Calvinism

[zoidar]

So what are you arguing for? Unlimited Atonement?

Romans 5:18Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
18 So, then, as through one offence to all men [it is] to condemnation, so also through one declaration of `Righteous' [it is] to all men to justification of life;

 

[DeaconDean]

I have never said anything against God's free gracious gift of salvation being offered to all mankind.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[zoidar]

A funny thing, well it's not funny at all really, that is that we should argue less and pray more for the salvation of people.

 

[zoidar]

I have never said anything against God's free gracious gift of salvation being offered to all mankind.

God Bless

Till all are one.

How can you offer something to everyone you haven't given to everyone?

 

[DeaconDean]

How can you offer something to everyone you haven't given to everyone?

If that's the case, why preach?

Why witness?

If you really want to get technical, then the creation stands as a witness to God:

"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:" -Rom. 1:20 (KJV)

Like I said, according to Acts 13:48, the gospel was preached, but only the "elect", those ordained, believed.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[zoidar]

DD, I think I'll stop here. Thanks for the talk and God bless you. Let's pray for people and share the good news to everyone, that everyone can be forgiven if they repent and believe.

 

[zoidar]

DD, is the faith you have giving you much joy in your life?

 

[zoidar]

Like I said, according to Acts 13:48, the gospel was preached, but only the "elect", those ordained, believed.

You can't make a theology out of one verse. There are many ways to understand that verse. Here is one way:

"I do not think it refers to election. A better translation of the passage is, “as many as were set in position for eternal life believed” or “as many as were disposed to eternal life believed.” The word typically translated “appointed” can also be translated “to set in position” and can be used of human disposition/attitude, which fits the context of Acts 13:48 better, as it stands in contrasting parallel to the attitude of the Jews of the same episode who judged themselves unworthy of eternal life, opposing Paul and rejecting the gospel (Acts 13:46)"
Acts 13:48 | Arminian Perspectives

 

[bbbbbbb]

I frequently encounter much wishful thinking in regard to foreknowledge and predestination. I once attended a Presbyterian home Bible study where we listened to a tape by one of their denomination's theologians. His assertion was that there are three classes of individuals in the world - the elect, the non-elect, and "whosever will call upon the name of the Lord". This, of course, is utter nonsense, but the people at the study were profoundly impressed.

 

[zoidar]

I frequently encounter much wishful thinking in regard to foreknowledge and predestination. I once attended a Presbyterian home Bible study where we listened to a tape by one of their denomination's theologians. His assertion was that there are three classes of individuals in the world - the elect, the non-elect, and "whosever will call upon the name of the Lord". This, of course, is utter nonsense, but the people at the study were profoundly impressed.

What I know is true is this:

"whoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, he shall be saved." (Rom 10:13)

"for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during."
(John 3:16)

"for if by the offence of the one the death did reign through the one, much more those, who the abundance of the grace and of the free gift of the righteousness are receiving, in life shall reign through the one -- Jesus Christ" (Rom 5:17)

"And in the last, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, `If any one doth thirst, let him come unto me and drink" (Joh 7:37)

 

[zoidar]

I think the Arminian Perspectives have a good point. In acts 13:48 you shouldn't translate "tássō" to appoint but to a word that is opposite of "repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy" from acts 13:46, so the word "tássō" should be towards receiving, so "to set in position" is not a bad translation.


Maybe ...
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as "set themselves in position of worthy" of eternal life believed.

 

[zoidar]

There are no "slam-dunk" verses in the bible. The bible always has to be read as a whole for understanding.

 

[DeaconDean]

You can't make a theology out of one verse. There are many ways to understand that verse. Here is one way:

"I do not think it refers to election. A better translation of the passage is, “as many as were set in position for eternal life believed” or “as many as were disposed to eternal life believed.” The word typically translated “appointed” can also be translated “to set in position” and can be used of human disposition/attitude, which fits the context of Acts 13:48 better, as it stands in contrasting parallel to the attitude of the Jews of the same episode who judged themselves unworthy of eternal life, opposing Paul and rejecting the gospel (Acts 13:46)"
Acts 13:48 | Arminian Perspectives

Yes you can.

"ἀκούοντα δὲ τὰ ἔθνη ἔχαιρον καὶ ἐδόξαζον τὸν λόγον τοῦ κυρίου, καὶ ἐπίστευσαν ὅσοι ἦσαν τεταγμένοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον: " -Acts 13:48 (GNT)

"τάσσω,v \{tas'-so}
1) to put in order, to station 1a) to place in a certain order, to arrange, to assign a place, to appoint 1a1) to assign (appoint) a thing to one 1b) to appoint, ordain, order 1b1) to appoint on one's own responsibility or authority 1b2) to appoint mutually, i.e. agree upon For Synonyms see entry 5844 "

"and as many as were ordained unto eternal life believed;
faith is not the cause, or condition of the decree of eternal life, but a means fixed in it, and is a fruit and effect of it, and what certainly follows upon it, as in these persons: some would have the words rendered, "as many as were disposed unto eternal life believed"; which is not countenanced by the ancient versions. The Arabic renders it as we do, and the Syriac thus, "as many as were put, or appointed unto eternal life"; and the Vulgate Latin version, "as many as were pre-ordained". Moreover, the phrase of being "disposed unto", or "for eternal life", is a very unusual, if not a very improper, and an inaccurate one; men are said to be disposed to an habit, or to an act, as to vice or virtue, but not to reward or punishment, as to heaven or hell; nor does it appear that these Gentiles had any good dispositions to eternal life, antecedent to their believing; for though they are said, ( Acts 13:42 ) to entreat the apostles to preach the same things to them the next sabbath, yet the words as there observed, according to their natural order, may be rendered "they", i.e. the apostles, "besought the Gentiles"; and in some copies and versions, the "Gentiles" are not mentioned at all: and as for their being "glad", and "glorifying the word of the Lord", it is not evident that this was before their believing; and if it was, such things have been found in persons, who have had no true, real, and inward dispositions to spiritual things, as in many of our Lord's hearers; besides, admitting that there are, in some, good dispositions to eternal life, previous to faith, and that desiring eternal life, and seeking after it, be accounted such, yet these may be where faith does not follow; as in the young rich ruler, that came to Christ with such an inquiry, and went away sorrowful: as many therefore as are so disposed, do not always believe, faith does not always follow such dispositions; and after all, one would have thought that the Jews themselves, who were externally religious, and were looking for the Messiah, and especially the devout and able women, were more disposed unto eternal life, than the ignorant and idolatrous Gentiles; and yet the latter believed, and the former did not: it follows then, that their faith did not arise from previous dispositions to eternal life, but was the fruit and effect of divine ordination unto it; and the word here used, in various places in this book, signifies determination and appointment, and not disposition of mind; see ( Acts 15:2 ) ( 22:10 ) ( 28:23 ) The phrase is the same with that used by the Jews, (Mlwe yyxl wnqtad) , "who are ordained to eternal life"; and (yyxl bytkd lk amle) , "everyone that is written to eternal life"; i.e. in the book of life; and designs no other than predestination or election, which is God's act, and is an eternal one; is sovereign, irrespective, and unconditional; relates to particular persons, and is sure and certain in its effect: it is an ordination, not to an office, nor to the means of grace, but to grace and glory itself; to a life of grace which is eternal, and to a life of glory which is for ever; and which is a pure gift of God, is in the hands of Christ, and to which his righteousness gives a title: and ordination to it shows it to be a blessing of an early date; and the great love of God to the persons ordained to it; and the certainty of enjoying it."

Source

Now I would be remiss not to tell you that noted theologian A.T. Robertson disagrees with the use of "ordain". But he does agree that there is no support for the Arminian (Remonstrant) argument:

"As many as were ordained to eternal life (osoi hsan tetagmenoi ei zwhn aiwnion). Periphrastic past perfect passive indicative of tassw, a military term to place in orderly arrangement. The word "ordain" is not the best translation here. "Appointed," as Hackett shows, is better. The Jews here had voluntarily rejected the word of God. On the other side were those Gentiles who gladly accepted what the Jews had rejected, not all the Gentiles. Why these Gentiles here ranged themselves on God's side as opposed to the Jews Luke does not tell us. This verse does not solve the vexed problem of divine sovereignty and human free agency. There is no evidence that Luke had in mind an absolutum decretum of personal salvation. Paul had shown that God's plan extended to and included Gentiles. Certainly the Spirit of God does move upon the human heart to which some respond, as here, while others push him away. Believed (episteusan). Summary or constative first aorist active indicative of pisteuw. The subject of this verb is the relative clause. By no manner of legerdemain can it be made to mean "those who believe were appointed." It was saving faith that was exercised only by those who were appointed unto eternal life, who were ranged on the side of eternal life, who were thus revealed as the subjects of God's grace by the stand that they took on this day for the Lord. It was a great day for the kingdom of God.

Source

There it is in a nutshell.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

That is why I would urge you to in some way, fashion, even if it meant "auditing" a Greek class at a good Christian college, take classes in Greek.

From TheBible.org:

"ὅσοι ἦσαν τεταγμένοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον, as many as were appointed [A. V. ordained] (by God) to obtain eternal life, or to whom God had decreed eternal life, Acts xiii. 48;"

Everything I have posted, was not based on my own interpretation of scriptures (but I could), but because of having studied Koine Greek in seminary, and nearly 9 months dedicated to a study on nothing but "election" while in seminary.

Consult and Greek lexicon. Consult any good commentary, Look at the morphology of the word "tasso" from a source not even Catholic's can dispute, Kittles Theological Dictionary of the New Testament". (I was given a complete 10 volume set as a gift, what a blessing that has turned out to be!)

Dismiss it if you want.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[zoidar]

DD, maybe you have to translate it to "appoint" or something along the line. I don't know. Even so it doesn't say why they were ordained to believe. Maybe because they didn't turn the message away. The others hardened their hearts, that's why they didn't believe. But maybe they came to faith later.

 

[DeaconDean]

DD, maybe you have to translate it to "appoint" or something along the line. I don't know. Even so it doesn't say why they were ordained to believe. Maybe because they didn't turn the message away. The others hardened their hearts, that's why they didn't believe. But maybe they came to faith later.

Because God wanted it so.

Maybe He wanted the Gentiles to be an example to the Jews.

Idk.

All I know is that the decree to "appoint/ordain" can only come from one person and one person only.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[zoidar]

All I know is that the decree to "appoint/ordain" can only come from one person and one person only.

I could of course say that even if you are ordained to believe it's not sure you ever will believe... or that your faith will hold up till the end.

There are so many things God ordained that didn't happen because of man's sin. An example is that God ordained Saul King to get rid of the philistines, yet because of his sin, David was ordained instead for Sauls mission.

 

[kangaroodort]

That is why I would urge you to in some way, fashion, even if it meant "auditing" a Greek class at a good Christian college, take classes in Greek.

From TheBible.org:

"ὅσοι ἦσαν τεταγμένοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον, as many as were appointed [A. V. ordained] (by God) to obtain eternal life, or to whom God had decreed eternal life, Acts xiii. 48;"

Everything I have posted, was not based on my own interpretation of scriptures (but I could), but because of having studied Koine Greek in seminary, and nearly 9 months dedicated to a study on nothing but "election" while in seminary.

Consult and Greek lexicon. Consult any good commentary, Look at the morphology of the word "tasso" from a source not even Catholic's can dispute, Kittles Theological Dictionary of the New Testament". (I was given a complete 10 volume set as a gift, what a blessing that has turned out to be!)

Dismiss it if you want.

God Bless

Till all are one.

It seems some posts from my site have been referenced. I would strongly suggests you read through them carefully because they are not written by me but a well respected Biblical scholar who has a very strong command of the Greek language. He does not claim certain things arbitrarily, but backs them up with careful research just as scholar should. Here are some to consider:

From an interaction with Greek scholar Dan Wallace:

Some Very Important Comments on Acts 13:48 From An Arminian Perspective

(By the way, I would mention that Wallace saw Absaciano's full response and, to my knowledge, has not challenge him on his claims about the Greek in Acts 13. Instead, he simply replied that he had no intentions of misrepresenting the corporate election view and intends to look into it more based on Abasciano's response)

Part one of an interaction with James White:

Brian Abasciano, James White’s Faulty Treatment of the Greek and Context of Acts 13:48

Part two of an interaction with James White:

Brian Abasciano, “A Reply to James White Concerning His Faulty Treatment of the Greek and Context of Acts 13:48”

There is no doubt that the rendering "to set in line/set in position/dispose" is a legitimate way to understand the Grammar, and a way that far better fits the context. As was mentioned above, this passage is in no way a slam dunk for Calvinism.

 

[kangaroodort]

That is why I would urge you to in some way, fashion, even if it meant "auditing" a Greek class at a good Christian college, take classes in Greek.

From TheBible.org:

"ὅσοι ἦσαν τεταγμένοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον, as many as were appointed [A. V. ordained] (by God) to obtain eternal life, or to whom God had decreed eternal life, Acts xiii. 48;"

Everything I have posted, was not based on my own interpretation of scriptures (but I could), but because of having studied Koine Greek in seminary, and nearly 9 months dedicated to a study on nothing but "election" while in seminary.

Consult and Greek lexicon. Consult any good commentary, Look at the morphology of the word "tasso" from a source not even Catholic's can dispute, Kittles Theological Dictionary of the New Testament". (I was given a complete 10 volume set as a gift, what a blessing that has turned out to be!)

Dismiss it if you want.

God Bless

Till all are one.

I should also mention that even if we take strictly as "to appoint" it does not necessarily support Calvinism. Here is F.Leroy Forlines on the passage:
F. Leroy Forlines on Acts 13:48

Biblical scholar I.H. Marshall takes the same basic approach in his commentary on Acts:

"Those who believe are described as those who were ordained to eternal life. The phrase indicates that not all the Gentiles in the town believed the Gospel. It could be taken in the sense that God had predestined certain of them to believe (cf. Acts 16:14;18:10). But it could also refer to those who had already put their trust in God according to the Old Testament revelation of his grace and were enrolled in his people..." (pg. 231)

This idea (also described by Forlines above) fits well with what I would call the "transition view" of the passages in John that Calvinists especially like to point to in order to support Calvinism (cf. John 5, 6, 8 and 10), a view that also makes better sense of those passages in context and the Gospel as a whole. For more on that, see here: Various Thoughts on The Use of John 6 And Related Passages From John’s Gospel to Support Calvinism

 

[DeaconDean]

I could of course say that even if you are ordained to believe it's not sure you ever will believe... or that your faith will hold up till the end.

There are so many things God ordained that didn't happen because of man's sin. An example is that God ordained Saul King to get rid of the philistines, yet because of his sin, David was ordained instead for Sauls mission.

Read the text brother. It says plainly: "ordain/appointed" to eternal life.

That is election.

That is the Sovereignty of God.

God Bless

Till all are one.