Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
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The passages of holy scripture that I quoted are older than am I. They came many centuries before I was born. Their truth is as true now as it was true when they were written. Tender hearts and human notions of humane treatment are more recent than the teaching of Christ and human notions of humane treatment change and may change again. Good as human notions of humane treatment may seem they cannot be better than God can they? Is God cruel to punish eternally? I am not God's judge, no one is and no one ever shall be. If God says he will punish eternally then his word is true and just and good is it not? That is what must decided. One's religion is ultimately decided by what one is willing to believe and willing to follow. If eternal punishment is beyond the pale even though Jesus taught it then some religion other than the one Jesus taught must be sought. Matthew 25:31-46 teaches a last judgement and eternal life for the righteous as well as eternal punishment for the wicked.

But Jesus did not teach Eternal Torment. It is your interpretation (among others) upon the text that makes that so.

One of the differences between God and His Word is that is morally superior to any other religion out there. But a person can read the Bible in a wrong way and justify a wrong belief that is immoral and they can say it is true (when it is not). For if a being that appeared to be like God told you to do something you know to be immoral, you would know that such a being was not of God because God is good and God is love and He is fair in His judgments.


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GingerBeer

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But Jesus did not teach Eternal Torment.
Jesus taught eternal punishment. I never mentioned "torment". Best to stick with what holy scripture says rather than fight against a straw man.
 
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helping

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Gods Son opened up Eternal, both Heaven and Hell are Eternal. He not only opened up the way to God but also the way to Hell. Once one finds Him, He sends you to God to get forgiveness, if you don't get Gods forgiveness, He says " it's better for you, to not find him aka Hell. There are four groups of people, group 1 the ones that don't find Christ, group 2 the ones that find Christ and doesn't get forgiveness aka Hell group 3 the ones that find Christ and gets forgiveness aka Heaven group 4 the 144,000 chosen bloodline DNA that are defenseless other than trusting God to defend them in the final battle against Satan and followers.
 
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claninja

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The passages of holy scripture that I quoted are older than am I. They came many centuries before I was born. Their truth is as true now as it was true when they were written. Tender hearts and human notions of humane treatment are more recent than the teaching of Christ and human notions of humane treatment change and may change again. Good as human notions of humane treatment may seem they cannot be better than God can they? Is God cruel to punish eternally? I am not God's judge, no one is and no one ever shall be. If God says he will punish eternally then his word is true and just and good is it not? That is what must decided. One's religion is ultimately decided by what one is willing to believe and willing to follow. If eternal punishment is beyond the pale even though Jesus taught it then some religion other than the one Jesus taught must be sought. Matthew 25:31-46 teaches a last judgement and eternal life for the righteous as well as eternal punishment for the wicked.

First, I would say "eternal" is a bad word used to translate aionios, has we all have a beginning and therefore cannot be eternal. Everlasting is probably better (because we have a beginning). Secondly, aionios can mean without end, but it can also mean unknown period of time that will eventually end.

Additionally, it appears that if we hold the parable of the sheep and the goats literally, then everlasting punishment and everlasting life are based on our works.

Matthew 21: Parable of the wicked tenants: Kingdom of God taken away from Israel and given to gentiles
Matthew 22: Parable of the wedding feast: Kingdom of God taken away from Israel and given to gentiles
Mathew 23: Jesus denounces the scribes, calls the temple desolate, and states destruction is coming on this generation
Matthew 24: Jesus explains when the end of the age will occur: destruction of temple and his coming in glory which will happen during this generation.

This brings us to Matthew 25 and the parables, specifically parable of sheep and goats which is spoken in apocalyptic language. Given the context of who Jesus has been speaking to over the last few chapters, the sheep are the nations (gentiles and believing Jews) who will inherit life, and the goats (unbelieving Israel) are the ones who will be receiving eternal punishment. As we can clearly see from history, the nation of Israel was cut off as the chosen people of God and the temple was destroyed in 70AD, effectively ending the old covenant and any possibility of following the OT traditions. This has been a permanent and everlasting punishment, which has lasted for the last 2000+ years. And us who believe, have received everlasting life (knowing the one true God and who he sent: Jesus Christ John 17:3).
 
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ToBeLoved

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Gods Son opened up Eternal, both Heaven and Hell are Eternal. He not only opened up the way to God but also the way to Hell. Once one finds Him, He sends you to God to get forgiveness, if you don't get Gods forgiveness, He says " it's better for you, to not find him aka Hell. There are four groups of people, group 1 the ones that don't find Christ, group 2 the ones that find Christ and doesn't get forgiveness aka Hell group 3 the ones that find Christ and gets forgiveness aka Heaven group 4 the 144,000 chosen bloodline DNA that are defenseless other than trusting God to defend them in the final battle against Satan and followers.
Where did you get this theology from?
 
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ToBeLoved

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First, I would say "eternal" is a bad word used to translate aionios, has we all have a beginning and therefore cannot be eternal. Everlasting is probably better (because we have a beginning). Secondly, aionios can mean without end, but it can also mean unknown period of time that will eventually end.

Additionally, it appears that if we hold the parable of the sheep and the goats literally, then everlasting punishment and everlasting life are based on our works.

Matthew 21: Parable of the wicked tenants: Kingdom of God taken away from Israel and given to gentiles
Matthew 22: Parable of the wedding feast: Kingdom of God taken away from Israel and given to gentiles
Mathew 23: Jesus denounces the scribes, calls the temple desolate, and states destruction is coming on this generation
Matthew 24: Jesus explains when the end of the age will occur: destruction of temple and his coming in glory which will happen during this generation.

This brings us to Matthew 25 and the parables, specifically parable of sheep and goats which is spoken in apocalyptic language. Given the context of who Jesus has been speaking to over the last few chapters, the sheep are the nations (gentiles and believing Jews) who will inherit life, and the goats (unbelieving Israel) are the ones who will be receiving eternal punishment. As we can clearly see from history, the nation of Israel was cut off as the chosen people of God and the temple was destroyed in 70AD, effectively ending the old covenant and any possibility of following the OT traditions. This has been a permanent and everlasting punishment, which has lasted for the last 2000+ years. And us who believe, have received everlasting life (knowing the one true God and who he sent: Jesus Christ John 17:3).
I was with you until the Matthew 25 reference. Can you please explain that again?
 
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Greg Merrill

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I honestly don't ask that question because I believe God is perfect and fair and just.

So I just let God decide. He is the only one who understands all. I trust Him.

He knows the Big Plan and His reasons, not me.
I agree... but.... God reveals in His written Word.... the answer to this question.
 
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GingerBeer

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First, I would say "eternal" is a bad word used to translate aionios, has we all have a beginning and therefore cannot be eternal.
A good lexicon (The Complete Word Study Dictionary) offers this as part of its definition:
αἰώνιος
aiṓnios; gen. aiōníou, masc.-fem., neut. aiṓnion, adj., also fem. aiōnía, neut. aiṓnion, from aiṓn, age.
Eternal, perpetual, belonging to the aiṓn, to time in its duration, constant, abiding. When referring to eternal life, it means the life which is God's and hence it is not affected by the limitations of time. Aiō̄́nios is specially predicated of the saving blessings of divine revelation, denoting those things which are not transitory.
Of the punishment of the wicked (Mat 18:8; Mat 25:41, Mat 25:46; Mar 3:29; 2Th 1:9; Heb 6:2; Jud 1:7; Sept.: Dan 12:2).​
 
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helping

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Every answer one finds, opens up a thousand more questions. Understanding the Bible is a challenge, If one was taught much by any one religion, if you take religion into the Bible it doesn't make sense unless you throw most of it away. When reading the Bible if it doesn't make sense back up and read from different direction, if you need to dismiss any of it, your reading it wrong. Every religion is in the Bible, they all took what they wanted and left the rest. If one takes the good from every religion and combines them into one it will be close to being right.
 
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helping

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Before the Ten Commandments, What was sin????
Who was the Ten Commandments for ?????
Was God angry, when mankind beat and killed His Son ??????????
What was the destruction on earth about, while Christ was on the cross????
What is God's agenda ????????????
What is Satan's agenda ?????
When reading the Bible have questions ready so when you read, you will recognize the answer when you read it.

wrote in 2003

What A World

What is this place, we all live in,
What is the reason, for it all to begin.
Why are we here, do we dare ask,
What is the reason, to study the past.
What is the purpose, to experience the pain,
Why are we here, what is the gain.
As the world keeps repeating it's self,
And placing our misery, on it's great shelf.
As one studies and takes a deep look,
It doesn't take long to get in His Book.
It's the only place to find what life is about,
If one doesn't look, life is only a rout.
Can study every theory, mankind has put in,
But will figure out, there's only one in the end.
As we run this maze, that is set up for us,
Without God's help, it's only a bust.
Two powers at work, for control of mankind,
Only one in the end, I think it's about time.
One day I was down, needed His' help back up,
It surprised me more, He actually showed up.
Without His' help, I would not be here,
Only thing left, is to help the ones so dear.
As one increases knowledge, will find one thing,
The more one knows, it increases the pain.
As I my friends hurt, their to scared to ask why,
When they won't listen, it can make me cry.
So please, come look and study with me for a while,
When you let me help you, the I can smile.
Back to the question, why are we here,
Is to find the God, who holds us so dear.
 
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claninja

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A good lexicon (The Complete Word Study Dictionary) offers this as part of its definition:
αἰώνιος
aiṓnios; gen. aiōníou, masc.-fem., neut. aiṓnion, adj., also fem. aiōnía, neut. aiṓnion, from aiṓn, age.
Eternal, perpetual, belonging to the aiṓn, to time in its duration, constant, abiding. When referring to eternal life, it means the life which is God's and hence it is not affected by the limitations of time. Aiō̄́nios is specially predicated of the saving blessings of divine revelation, denoting those things which are not transitory.
Of the punishment of the wicked (Mat 18:8; Mat 25:41, Mat 25:46; Mar 3:29; 2Th 1:9; Heb 6:2; Jud 1:7; Sept.: Dan 12:2).​

My point was, when referring to humans who have a beginning, eternal is a bad word. We will never have no beginning. Only God has no beginning. Therefore only He is eternal.

Aion = age ios = of the/pertaining to. So Aionios Zoe literally means life of/pertaining to the age.
And what is Aionios Zoe (life of/pertaining to the age)? It is knowing the one true God and who He sent: Jesus Christ.

In the Septuagint, Olam was translated to aion or aionios. Here are some uses that do not necessarily mean eternal.

In fact, I believe why most hold to ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment) is because they do not understand that the word "forever" does not always mean "forever" in the Bible.

Take Revelation 14:11 as an example.
Should the English words "for ever" (or "forever") be read literally meaning an endless state?

Well, I heard a pastor once say that the best way to interpret the Bible is to let the Bible do the interpreting for you. What I am I talking about? Well, the Bible tells us that the phrase "smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever" is a metaphorical phrase from Isaiah 34:10 which says that the smoke of Edom went up forever and ever. Yet is the city of Edom burning today? No, of course not. So we then realize that this phrase is speaking metaphorically.

In other words,, the word "forever" (and it's related words) does not always mean forever in the Bible. “Forever” can be talking about "forever" here on this Earth (as long as someone lives) or in having a sense of "completeness" or "totality" for a specific thing). For what do you make of the following verses below that say that "forever" (or it's related words) is not forever?

• In Genesis 13:15 the land of Canaan is given to Israel “forever”.

• The Law is to be a statute “forever” (Exodus 12:24; Exodus 27:21; Exodus 28:43).

• Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude 1:7) until -- God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom" (Ezekiel 16:53-55).

• Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jeremiah 30:12) until -- the Lord "will restore health" and heal her wounds (Jeremiah 30:17).

• The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Micah 1:9) until -- Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ezekiel 16:53).

• Ammon is to become a "wasteland forever" and "rise no more" (Zephaniah 2:9, Jeremiah 25:27 until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of the Ammonites" (Jeremiah 49:6).

• An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation "forever" until -- the tenth generation (Deuteronomy 23:3):

• Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting" until -- they "were shattered" Habakkuk 3:6).

• The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting" priesthood (Exodus 40:15), that is-until-it was superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews 7:14-18).

• Many translations of the Bible inform us that God would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings 8:13), until -- the Temple was destroyed.

• The children of Israel were to "observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant" (Exodus 31:16)-until -- Paul states there remains "another day" of Sabbath rest for the people of God (Hebrews 4:8-9).

• The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant" (Leviticus 24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Corinthians 3:11-13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).

• The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be a "perpetual" until -- Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for our sins.
Hell. We now have a better covenant established on better promises (Leviticus 6:12-13, Hebrews 8:6-13).

• God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah "forever" until--the Lord delivers him from the large fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6-10; Jonah 1:17); Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jeremiah 25:27) until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of Egypt" (Ezekiel 29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam" (Jeremiah 49:39).

• "Moab is destroyed" (Jeremiah 48:4, Jeremiah 48:42) until--the Lord "will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jeremiah 48:47).

• Israel's judgment lasts "forever" until -- the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isaiah 32:13-15).

• The King James Bible, as well as many others, tells us that a bond slave was to serve his master "forever" (Exodus 21:6), until -- his death.

• “Eternal” (Greek aionia, αιονια) is sometimes used of a limited (not endless) period of time. But the most common use is illustrated in 2 Corinthians 4:18 where it is contrasted with “temporal” and in Philemon 1:15 where it is contrasted with “for a while.”​

Anyways, in conclusion, I have discovered that the word "forever" as used in the Bible is true. It does mean "forever" but it is talking in "forever" under the context of within either a temporary Covenant, or here upon this Earth (which is temporal), or within the Lake of Fire (Which is also a temporary place).

Here is the source for list above for the Scriptural examples used on the word "forever":
http://www.apttoteach.org/attjom/index.php


...
 
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GingerBeer

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My point was, when referring to humans who have a beginning, eternal is a bad word. We will never have no beginning. Only God has no beginning. Therefore only He is eternal.
What you say is one way of looking at the word but it is not how the people who wrote the new testament looked at it. The lexicon definition that I posted tells Christians that eternal punishment does not imply punishment for eternity past. It tells Christians that eternal punishment is punishment without a future end. If you prefer "everlasting punishment" because of some scruple about "eternal punishment" then that is okay. Jesus teaches everlasting punishment for the wicked in exactly the same way that he teaches everlasting life for the righteous.
 
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claninja

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I was with you until the Matthew 25 reference. Can you please explain that again?

Yea no problem. I'm trying to put Mathew 25 in the context of Matthew 21-24.

From Matthew 21-24, Jesus is talking about the destruction/punishment of the unbelieving Jewish nation.
Matthew 21: Parable of wicked tenants: This is basically history for us. God sent multiple prophets to Israel. Israel did not listen to those prophets and killed them. Then God sends his son. Israel kills his son. Then God puts to death Israel for killing his son and takes the kingdom from them and gives it to another nation.

Matthew 22: Parable of the wedding feast: This is also history for us. God had a chose people (Israel) and sent out servants to invite them to his son's wedding feast. Israel kills the servants. God (king) then kills Israel and burns their city. He then send out invites to every one else for the wedding feast.

Matthew 23: Jesus denounces the scribes and Pharisees (the woes). He says Jerusalem kept killing all the prophets that were sent to them. He says punishment is coming on this generation (not a future one). He also states that the temple will be forsaken and desolate.

Matthew 24: Christ tells his disciples about the destruction of the temple (judgments on Israel) and awful things that must occur until the end of the age (not the physical world, but the end of the Jewish world). He also states the son of man will come in his glory and power. He states these things will occur during THIS GENERATION (not a future one).

Matthew 25: parable of sheep and goats
Sheep: Those who did righteousness without even knowing " ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?"

Goats: Those who were like the Pharisees and self righteous about there works "Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’

Romans 10: 30-33 Tell us who the sheep and goats are.
What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, righteousness through faith; 31 but that Israel who pursued the righteousness which is based on law did not succeed in fulfilling that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it through faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33 as it is written,

“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone that will make men stumble,
a rock that will make them fall;
and he who believes in him will not be put to shame.”


If the matthew 25 is about the future some 2000+ years later, then it is well outside the context of what Jesus was talking about in Matthew 21-24.
 
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claninja

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What you say is one way of looking at the word but it is not how the people who wrote the new testament looked at it. The lexicon definition that I posted tells Christians that eternal punishment does not imply punishment for eternity past. It tells Christians that eternal punishment is punishment without a future end. If you prefer "everlasting punishment" because of some scruple about "eternal punishment" then that is okay. Jesus teaches everlasting punishment for the wicked in exactly the same way that he teaches everlasting life for the righteous.
I agree. But to say it is not how the people wrote the new testament looked at it is a pretty bold statement. Lexicons are a great tool, but not the ultimate authority. The meaning of aionios has been fiercely debated over the centuries, so to say we know exactly what the authors meant is easier said than done.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Yea no problem. I'm trying to put Mathew 25 in the context of Matthew 21-24.

From Matthew 21-24, Jesus is talking about the destruction/punishment of the unbelieving Jewish nation.
Matthew 21: Parable of wicked tenants: This is basically history for us. God sent multiple prophets to Israel. Israel did not listen to those prophets and killed them. Then God sends his son. Israel kills his son. Then God puts to death Israel for killing his son and takes the kingdom from them and gives it to another nation.

Matthew 22: Parable of the wedding feast: This is also history for us. God had a chose people (Israel) and sent out servants to invite them to his son's wedding feast. Israel kills the servants. God (king) then kills Israel and burns their city. He then send out invites to every one else for the wedding feast.

Matthew 23: Jesus denounces the scribes and Pharisees (the woes). He says Jerusalem kept killing all the prophets that were sent to them. He says punishment is coming on this generation (not a future one). He also states that the temple will be forsaken and desolate.

Matthew 24: Christ tells his disciples about the destruction of the temple (judgments on Israel) and awful things that must occur until the end of the age (not the physical world, but the end of the Jewish world). He also states the son of man will come in his glory and power. He states these things will occur during THIS GENERATION (not a future one).

Matthew 25: parable of sheep and goats
Sheep: Those who did righteousness without even knowing " ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?"

Goats: Those who were like the Pharisees and self righteous about there works "Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’

Romans 10: 30-33 Tell us who the sheep and goats are.
What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, righteousness through faith; 31 but that Israel who pursued the righteousness which is based on law did not succeed in fulfilling that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it through faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33 as it is written,

“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone that will make men stumble,
a rock that will make them fall;
and he who believes in him will not be put to shame.”


If the matthew 25 is about the future some 2000+ years later, then it is well outside the context of what Jesus was talking about in Matthew 21-24.
Ok, let me get specific, this is a cut and paste of the paragraph I have questions about.

This brings us to Matthew 25 and the parables, specifically parable of sheep and goats which is spoken in apocalyptic language. Given the context of who Jesus has been speaking to over the last few chapters, the sheep are the nations (gentiles and believing Jews) who will inherit life, and the goats (unbelieving Israel) are the ones who will be receiving eternal punishment. As we can clearly see from history, the nation of Israel was cut off as the chosen people of God and the temple was destroyed in 70AD, effectively ending the old covenant and any possibility of following the OT traditions. This has been a permanent and everlasting punishment, which has lasted for the last 2000+ years.

Question 1: The goats are not unbelieving Israel in particular, but all unbelievers in Christ under the New Covenat which is by faith.

Question 2: The nation of Israel was nevver cut off as God's chosen people. They will always have that title and are the birth line of Christ.

Question 3: The nation of Israel will never suffer from permanant and everlasting punishment as a whole. Individuals in disbelief, but not the whole nation. Also, Israel as a nation has had their hardened hearts blinded by God of the truth, but God will come back for them. God does not keep His promises.
 
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claninja

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Question 1: The goats are not unbelieving Israel in particular, but all unbelievers in Christ under the New Covenat which is by faith.

Again, the context of matthew 25 is established in matthew 21-24: destruction of unbelieving Israel, destruction of the temple, and destruction of the old covenant. The kingdom of God is being taken away from Israel and given to a nation that is bearing fruit.

The gentiles who did not pursue righteousness did obtain it = sheep's humble response not knowing they were serving God, when in fact they were serving God.

Israel who pursued the righteousness which is based on law did not succeed in fulfilling that law= Goats self righteous response saying that they did serve God, when they really didn't.

Question 2: The nation of Israel was nevver cut off as God's chosen people. They will always have that title and are the birth line of Christ.

1 Kings 9:7 " then I will cut off Israel from the land which I have given them; and the house which I have consecrated for my name I will cast out of my sight; and Israel will become a proverb and a byword among all peoples."

Romans 11:22 "Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off."

Yes, they were cut off.

Question 3: The nation of Israel will never suffer from permanant and everlasting punishment as a whole. Individuals in disbelief, but not the whole nation. Also, Israel as a nation has had their hardened hearts blinded by God of the truth, but God will come back for them. God does not keep His promises.

So far they have. The old covenant (specifically made with Israel) has passed away permanently. To unbelieving Israel it seems God has left them. How can they continue to follow the OT law if the temple has been gone for 2000+ years? However, to anyone who believes, the passing away of the old covenant is gift for the new covenant is so much more glorious!

And you are absolutely right: All Israel shall be saved. For God has given everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on all.
 
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helping

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Where did you get this theology from?
Reading and studying back and forth in Bible, about 15 yrs ago God move me to a different angle to see things from, from that angle things make more sense. found Christ at the age of 9 found God at the age of 48 there is a difference. When things that didn't make sense all of a sudden start making sense and start seeing things that, one knows the world doesn't understand it, made me very curious to find out what happened. After several mo. of study I bumped into it. 'Understanding' studying with it or studying without it. I ran into a personal problem and I ask God why, I didn't ask him to fix it, just why. If ya don't want to know don't ask because He will tell ya, WOW, will He tell ya!!! The secret is how ya get understanding from God, I did it without knowing I was doing it. Never ever heard this from religion.
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First, when reading the Bible, names can have different meanings Israel = Jacob, 12 Hebrew tribes of Israel = the chosen bloodline aka families of the 12 sons of Jacob. Jew = a member of the Jewish religion not bloodline. Paul says bloodline isn't relevant yet it's still there in the last chapter in Revelations. Christ didn't come to cancel Gods promise. He was sent because religion had become so corrupt no one could any longer find God.
A little story I heard, a 95 yr. old man was at heavens gate and God asks him why should He let him in, The man lists all the good things he done through out his life, God ask what about all of these other things ya did, the man says he didn't know that was wrong to do.
God ask, why didn't he read His Book, the man says that he was a busy man and didn't have time, God says you are actually telling Me that, 95 yrs. is not enough time to read My Book?
 
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