Futurist Only 12 Reasons Why the Pre-Trib Rapture Theory is a Lie

1stcenturylady said:

Referring to your last paragraph. "they were killed already." Do you believe that those killed in Revelation 6 is before the events of Revelation 7, or even 12 and 13?

Also, at the beginning, are you saying your pastor says the Antichrist doesn't show up until the beginning of the last 3 1/2 years?

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1stcenturylady said:

Referring to your last paragraph. "they were killed already." Do you believe that those killed in Revelation 6 is before the events of Revelation 7, or even 12 and 13?

Also, at the beginning, are you saying your pastor says the Antichrist doesn't show up until the beginning of the last 3 1/2 years?

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He's not fully revealed unto 3 1/2 yes, although we see the power of sin and such at power now.

I believe 12 happened before rev 6, 13 also. And yes based off the bible it's safe to suggest he will be revealed mid way through, sure we see the effects of sin and such now of course but the antichrist as an being itself shall not be revealed unto then.

And again i'm not professing to know everything on revelations, no one really does, there's a reason there are so many different takes on it although some of them...are rather crazy.

Hello , I would like to ask ...if you have a wife that you loved enough to die for to save her , if you had control over all situations would you not make sure she was safe and removed out from all the dangers? Jesus said that those who have obtained salvation through Him was considered His Bride and He as the Bridegroom , do you not realize that there is a Big reason for Him calling us His Bride? As there are No scriptures that state any born-again believer who has obtained salvation through Messiah Jesus will go through the Great Trib consider the following :
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vinsight4u said in post #200:

Salvation comes at the end of our faith....when He appears.

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That's right, with regard to ultimate salvation.

For one difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is the salvation which Christians have now (Ephesians 2:5) in their mortal bodies, whereas ultimate salvation is that salvation which is ready to be revealed in the last time (1 Peter 1:5), and is always drawing nearer (Romans 13:11), that salvation which Christians are still hoping for (1 Thessalonians 5:8, Romans 8:23-25, Mark 10:30), and which Jesus will bring to obedient Christians at his second coming (Hebrews 9:28, Hebrews 5:9), when he will resurrect (if dead) or change (if alive) their mortal physical bodies into immortal physical bodies just like the immortal physical body which Jesus obtained at his resurrection on the third day after his death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:11-14).

vinsight4u said in post #200:

Till then, we are to keep the faith, just like those whom will be slain in Revelation 14.

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Good point.

For Revelation 14:12-13 refers to Christians in our future being patient and faithful to the point of death in not worshipping the Antichrist and his image, and not receiving his mark, knowing that if they do these things, they will be punished by God with eternal suffering (Revelation 14:9-13). But if they refuse to do these things, even if they are then killed by the Antichrist, their still-conscious souls will be reaped by Jesus into heaven (Revelation 14:14-16, Revelation 15:2). And they will later be resurrected into physical immortality along with the rest of the obedient church (of all times) at Jesus' second coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53, Revelation 20:4-6), immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Revelation 14:12-13 is the same idea as 1 Thessalonians 5:10-11, meaning that obedient Christians can have the Holy Spirit's comfort at any time (John 14:15-17), in any tribulation (2 Corinthians 1:4-7), no matter whether they live or die.

Brian Mcnamee said in post #201:

If you look at just a couple on your list you see the harvest mentioned in Rev 14 is the grapes that are gathered. You do not want to be in that harvest as that is when the Lord Jesus treads the wine press of his wrath.

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Revelation 14:14-16 refers to Jesus sitting on a single cloud in heaven and reaping into heaven (beginning mid-tribulation) the souls of those in the church who will be killed (Revelation 14:13) by the Antichrist during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), which will be during the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. They will be killed for refusing to worship the Antichrist and his image, and refusing to receive his mark (Revelation 14:9-16, cf. Revelation 15:2, Revelation 20:4-6).

Regarding Revelation 14:19-20, it can refer to the Antichrist's killing of non-Christians who will not worship him (such as radical Muslims, ultra-Orthodox Jews, hardcore atheists, etc.) being God's wrath against those non-Christians. Revelation 14:20 could refer to when they get beheaded by the Antichrist (say, with one blow of a large axe, while they are kneeling), their blood will shoot up from their necks like a geyser as high as a horse's bridle. Also, in Revelation 14:20, the city could be Jerusalem, and the sixteen hundred furlongs is about two hundred miles, so that Revelation 14:19-20 could mean that the Antichrist's beheading of people who will not worship him will begin at Jerusalem and the surrounding region, when he sits (at least one time) in a third Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36), and has the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31).

But when the Antichrist beheads Christians for not worshipping him (Revelation 20:4), this will not be God's wrath against those Christians, but Satan's wrath against them (Revelation 12:17). For Christians are not appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

Brian Mcnamee said in post #201:

Item 2 is bad exegesis as the pattern is like an allegory one can find support from the flood and Enoch as a pattern supporting the rapture.

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Note that Enoch was not translated into heaven so that he would not have to go through the Flood (along with righteous Noah and his family in the ark: 2 Peter 2:5; 1 Peter 3:20). For Enoch (Noah's great-grandfather) was translated 669 years before the Flood.

The way that we can know this is first by knowing when Noah's flood happened:

Noah's flood occurred about 2458 BC. This is based on verses in the Bible which make it possible to work back from the year BC that Solomon's temple began to be built.

Historians say that it began to be built about 966 BC. And the scriptures show that it began to be built 480 years after Israel's Exodus from Egypt (1 Kings 6:1). And Israel had spent 430 years in Egypt before the Exodus (Exodus 12:40-41). And Israel entered Egypt when Jacob was 130 (Genesis 47:9). And Jacob was born when his father Isaac was 60 (Genesis 25:26). And Isaac was born when his father Abraham was 100 (Genesis 21:5). And Abraham was born when his father Terah was about 70 (Genesis 11:26). And Terah was born when his father Nahor was 29 (Genesis 11:24). And Nahor was born when his father Serug was 30 (Genesis 11:22). And Serug was born when his father Reu was 32 (Genesis 11:20). And Reu was born when his father Peleg was 30 (Genesis 11:18). And Peleg was born when his father Eber was 34 (Genesis 11:16). And Eber was born when his father Salah was 30 (Genesis 11:14). And Salah was born when his father Arphaxad was 35 (Genesis 11:12). And Arphaxad was born two years after the Flood (Genesis 11:10).

So all we have to do is add up the numbers of years above to see that Noah's flood occurred about 2458 BC. Then, to determine when Enoch was translated, we need to work further back: If Arphaxad was born two years after the Flood, then Arphaxad was born about 2456 BC. And Arphaxad was born when his father Shem was 100 (Genesis 11:10). And Shem was born when his father Noah was 502 (Genesis 11:10, Genesis 7:6). And Noah was born when his father Lamech was 182 (Genesis 5:28-29). And Lamech was born when his father Methuselah was 187 (Genesis 5:25). And Methuselah was born when his father Enoch was 65 (Genesis 5:21).

Adding up the numbers of years above, we see that Enoch was born about 3492 BC. He was translated when he was 365 (Genesis 5:23-24), so he was translated about 3127 BC, which was 669 years before the Flood. Adding these 669 years to Enoch's age of 365, we find that Enoch was 1,034 years old at the time of the Flood. This means that had he stayed on the earth, he would have almost certainly died from old age before the Flood came (cf. Isaiah 57:1). For Methuselah (Noah's grandfather) was the longest-living person who stayed on the earth, and he died at the age of 969 (Genesis 5:27), the same year as the Flood. For Enoch was born about 3492 BC, and Methuselah was born when his father Enoch was 65 (Genesis 5:21). So Methuselah was born about 3427 BC, and he died 969 years later, which was about 2458 BC, the same year as the Flood.

Methuselah could have died of old age right before the Flood started. God could have waited to bring the Flood until after Methuselah died of old age and was buried. Lamech (Noah's father) had already died some five years before the Flood. For Methuselah was born about 3427 BC, and Lamech was born when his father Methuselah was 187 (Genesis 5:25). So Lamech was born about 3240 BC, and he died 777 years later (Genesis 5:31), which was about 2463 BC, which was five years before the Flood.

jerry kelso said in post #202:

The church is being trained now for rulership positions in the millennial kingdom 2 Timothy 2:12 and do not have to be purged such as Israel because the gates of hell shall never prevail against the Church Matthew 16:18.

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Note that just as Roman emperors and Satan were allowed to physically overcome Christians in the first century AD (e.g. Revelation 2:10), so during the future tribulation, the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will prevail physically against Christians (not in hiding) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13), and now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

Instead, Matthew 16:18 meant that the literal gates of Hades would not prevail against the "rock" in Matthew 16:18, which is Jesus himself (Matthew 16:16b,18b), the rock/stone on whom the church/New Covenant Israel is built (Ephesians 2:20, Matthew 16:18b; 1 Peter 2:6), the rock/stone who was rejected and crucified (Romans 9:33, Acts 4:11; 1 Peter 2:4,8), the same rock/Christ who followed Old Covenant Israel/the church in the wilderness (1 Corinthians 10:4-5, cf. Acts 7:38), and the same rock/Christ revered by New Covenant Israel/the church (1 Peter 2:4-10).

That is, Matthew 16:18 was prophesying of when the literal gates of Hades would not prevail against Jesus (Psalms 107:16), when, after his resurrection, he went down and liberated the souls of the dead Old Testament saints from Hades (1 Peter 4:6; 1 Peter 3:18c-19, Ephesians 4:8-9, Hebrews 11:13-16, Hebrews 12:22-24).

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Daniel 12:7b shows that at Jesus' second coming, he will come to a church which will have been completely defeated physically by the Antichrist. For during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign, he will be allowed to make war against the church and to overcome it physically in every nation (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). It is only when the Antichrist has completely broken all of the physical power of the church that the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will end (Daniel 12:7b), and Jesus' second coming will immediately occur, at which time he will physically resurrect and rapture (gather together) the church (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). And at his second coming, Jesus will tread the winepress of God's wrath alone (Isaiah 63:3, Revelation 19:15-21), and so he/God will get all of the glory for defeating the power of evil on the earth (Deuteronomy 32:39-43). For he/God will not share this glory with the church (cf. Isaiah 42:8-14, Isaiah 26:18).

seventysevens said in post #222:

Jesus said that those who have obtained salvation through Him was considered His Bride and He as the Bridegroom . . .

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Note that the ten virgins parable (Matthew 25:1-13) shows that the marriage of the church to Jesus will not occur until his second coming (Matthew 25:10), which Jesus had just finished saying will not occur until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), just as Revelation 19:7 shows that the marriage will not occur until after the (never fulfilled) tribulation, shown in Revelation chapters 6 to 18. The parable's extra oil (Matthew 25:4,9b) could represent the continued good works of Christians, by which they will be able to pass the judgment of the church by Jesus (Matthew 25:19-30, Romans 2:6-8) and enter the marriage of the church to Jesus at his second coming (Matthew 25:10, Revelation 19:7-21).

The marriage supper (Revelation 19:9) will not have yet begun by the time of Revelation 19, which will not begin until after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (cf. Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). For regarding the church, the marriage supper will be a literal feast in the earthly Jerusalem after the resurrection and marriage of the church at Jesus' second coming (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54). While the church will enjoy a feast "of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined" (Isaiah 25:6), the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's armies defeated by Jesus' at his second coming (Revelation 19:17-21).

Also, regarding the ten virgins parable, in Matthew 25:6 "midnight" could represent mid-tribulation, when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) could be set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a third Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31). So when it says "at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh" (Matthew 25:6), this could mean that at the mid-tribulation point when the abomination of desolation is set up, the church will be given the knowledge of the date (as in the year, month, and day) of Jesus' second coming. This date could be the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, cf. Revelation 16:15).

seventysevens said in post #222:

Let not your heart be troubled: you believe in God, Believe also in me. In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there you may be also. (John 14:1-3.)

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Note that there is no pre-tribulation-rapture idea in John 14:1-3, just as there is no "take you back" (somewhere). Instead, there is only a coming again of Jesus (i.e. his second coming), and then a receiving of the church unto himself. Also, the pre-tribulation-rapture view cannot (as is sometimes done) claim that the rapture is referred to only by Paul, and then admit that John 14:3 refers to the rapture.

John 14:2 means that one of the reasons that Jesus left was to prepare a place for the church in the literal city of New Jerusalem, God the Father's house in heaven (Revelation 21:2-3). John 14:3 means that Jesus' leaving to prepare a place for the church means that he is not done with the church, but will come back to it. John 14:3 means that the church will be received to Jesus where he will be first at his second coming, which will be in the sky (1 Thessalonians 4:17), before he lands on the earth at his second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:30-31, Zechariah 14:3-21), which will not occur until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

The church will live in its place in New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:24 to 22:5) on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-3) sometime after the millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15). For during the millennium, the physically resurrected church will be ruling on the present earth with the returned Jesus (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Zechariah 14:3-21).

Also, the church has already come to God the Father's house, New Jerusalem, which is currently in heaven, in the spiritual sense of coming under the New Covenant (Hebrews 12:22-24, Galatians 4:24-26, Matthew 26:28). Also, the souls of obedient people in the church go to God the Father's house when they die, for their still-conscious souls go into heaven to be with Jesus when they die (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). And they go into paradise (Luke 23:43), which is in heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2b,4), in the city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 2:7 and Revelation 22:2).

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seventysevens said in post #223:

The groom occupied himself with the preparation of living accommodations in his father’s house to which he could bring his bride. At the end of the period of separation the groom would come to take his bride to live with him.

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Note that the scriptures themselves do not ever say or require that Jesus is going to take the church to the Father's house for the marriage. And we must not run after Jewish traditions which are not taught by the scriptures (Mark 7:13, Colossians 2:8). Just as Isaac did not take Rebekah into his father's house, but into his mother's house (Genesis 24:67), and just as Jacob did not take Leah or Rachel into his father's house, but married them in a faraway land (Genesis 29:23-28), so nothing requires that Jesus has to marry the church in the Father's house, instead of in the clouds of the sky (the first heaven) at his second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:17, Revelation 19:7).

seventysevens said in post #223:

Although the bride was expecting her groom to come for her, she did not know the exact time of his coming.

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Are you thinking of Matthew 24:36,42,44? If so note that those verses refer to Jesus' second coming (Matthew 24:37,42,44), which Jesus had just finished saying will not happen until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31). So in Matthew 24:42,44, Jesus can mean that only if believers do not watch (stay awake, spiritually) during the tribulation, the second coming will happen at an hour they do not know/think not (cf. the if principle of Revelation 3:3b). In the context of Matthew 24:36,42,44, Jesus suggests that it is possible for believers to know when the second coming will occur and to watch for it (Matthew 24:43-44a; 1 Thessalonians 5:4).

Also, Jesus says "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Matthew 24:36); he does not say "of that day and hour no man will know". So it is possible that at a certain point in our future, some believers will come to know the date (as in the year, month, and day) of Jesus' second coming before it happens. Also, if we mistakenly think that Jesus can come back today or tomorrow (as is sometimes claimed by the pre-tribulation and partial preterist views), then how can we also claim that he will come back when nobody thinks he will (Matthew 24:44)?

Also, compare the following: "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Matthew 24:36), "the things of God knoweth no man" (1 Corinthians 2:11). If we claim that the first verse means that no man will ever know the date of Jesus' second coming until it happens, then to be consistent we would have to also claim that the second verse means that no man, not even believers, can know the things of God until the second coming. But who would say that? For the Holy Spirit can currently reveal to believers the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:12-13). He can currently guide them into all truth and show them what will happen in the future (John 16:13), including the date of the second coming. For, again, Jesus suggests that it is possible for believers to know when the second coming will occur and to watch for it (Matthew 24:43-44a; 1 Thessalonians 5:4). Also, what Amos 3:7 says would include the second coming: Surely God the Father will not send Jesus back without having first revealed to some believers the secret of the date of the second coming.

Jesus could return on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in a third Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15, Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15).

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Coming to know at a certain point in our future the date of Jesus' second coming will help Christians to endure patiently during the worst time of the future tribulation for Christians. As an analogy, imagine that during a persecution of Christians, you are thrown naked into a walk-in freezer. The door is locked and the lights are turned off, and you are just left in there to slowly suffer the freezing cold. You could freak out at this, if you have no idea how long you are going to have to be in there. But what if right after they turn the lights off, you see a little light in the corner, and you walk over and see a note on the wall: "You will be let out and set free in 13.35 minutes" (cf. the 1,335 days of Daniel 12:11-12). This would greatly help you to remain calm and to hang in there patiently for the whole time, even though you might suffer terribly from the cold. In the same way, knowing exactly when Jesus' second coming will occur (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15) will help Christians, during the worst time of the future tribulation for Christians, to endure patiently to the end (Matthew 24:13, Revelation 13:10b).

Bible2+ said:

Revelation 14:14-16 refers to Jesus sitting on a single cloud in heaven and reaping into heaven (beginning mid-tribulation) the souls of those in the church who will be killed (Revelation 14:13) by the Antichrist during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), which will be during the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. They will be killed for refusing to worship the Antichrist and his image, and refusing to receive his mark (Revelation 14:9-16, cf. Revelation 15:2, Revelation 20:4-6).

Regarding Revelation 14:19-20, it can refer to the Antichrist's killing of non-Christians who will not worship him (such as radical Muslims, ultra-Orthodox Jews, hardcore atheists, etc.) being God's wrath against those non-Christians. Revelation 14:20 could refer to when they get beheaded by the Antichrist (say, with one blow of a large axe, while they are kneeling), their blood will shoot up from their necks like a geyser as high as a horse's bridle. Also, in Revelation 14:20, the city could be Jerusalem, and the sixteen hundred furlongs is about two hundred miles, so that Revelation 14:19-20 could mean that the Antichrist's beheading of people who will not worship him will begin at Jerusalem and the surrounding region, when he sits (at least one time) in a third Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36), and has the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31).

But when the Antichrist beheads Christians for not worshipping him (Revelation 20:4), this will not be God's wrath against those Christians, but Satan's wrath against them (Revelation 12:17). For Christians are not appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).



Note that Enoch was not translated into heaven so that he would not have to go through the Flood (along with righteous Noah and his family in the ark: 2 Peter 2:5; 1 Peter 3:20). For Enoch (Noah's great-grandfather) was translated 669 years before the Flood.

The way that we can know this is first by knowing when Noah's flood happened:

Noah's flood occurred about 2458 BC. This is based on verses in the Bible which make it possible to work back from the year BC that Solomon's temple began to be built.

Historians say that it began to be built about 966 BC. And the scriptures show that it began to be built 480 years after Israel's Exodus from Egypt (1 Kings 6:1). And Israel had spent 430 years in Egypt before the Exodus (Exodus 12:40-41). And Israel entered Egypt when Jacob was 130 (Genesis 47:9). And Jacob was born when his father Isaac was 60 (Genesis 25:26). And Isaac was born when his father Abraham was 100 (Genesis 21:5). And Abraham was born when his father Terah was about 70 (Genesis 11:26). And Terah was born when his father Nahor was 29 (Genesis 11:24). And Nahor was born when his father Serug was 30 (Genesis 11:22). And Serug was born when his father Reu was 32 (Genesis 11:20). And Reu was born when his father Peleg was 30 (Genesis 11:18). And Peleg was born when his father Eber was 34 (Genesis 11:16). And Eber was born when his father Salah was 30 (Genesis 11:14). And Salah was born when his father Arphaxad was 35 (Genesis 11:12). And Arphaxad was born two years after the Flood (Genesis 11:10).

So all we have to do is add up the numbers of years above to see that Noah's flood occurred about 2458 BC. Then, to determine when Enoch was translated, we need to work further back: If Arphaxad was born two years after the Flood, then Arphaxad was born about 2456 BC. And Arphaxad was born when his father Shem was 100 (Genesis 11:10). And Shem was born when his father Noah was 502 (Genesis 11:10, Genesis 7:6). And Noah was born when his father Lamech was 182 (Genesis 5:28-29). And Lamech was born when his father Methuselah was 187 (Genesis 5:25). And Methuselah was born when his father Enoch was 65 (Genesis 5:21).

Adding up the numbers of years above, we see that Enoch was born about 3492 BC. He was translated when he was 365 (Genesis 5:23-24), so he was translated about 3127 BC, which was 669 years before the Flood. Adding these 669 years to Enoch's age of 365, we find that Enoch was 1,034 years old at the time of the Flood. This means that had he stayed on the earth, he would have almost certainly died from old age before the Flood came (cf. Isaiah 57:1). For Methuselah (Noah's grandfather) was the longest-living person who stayed on the earth, and he died at the age of 969 (Genesis 5:27), the same year as the Flood. For Enoch was born about 3492 BC, and Methuselah was born when his father Enoch was 65 (Genesis 5:21). So Methuselah was born about 3427 BC, and he died 969 years later, which was about 2458 BC, the same year as the Flood.

Methuselah could have died of old age right before the Flood started. God could have waited to bring the Flood until after Methuselah died of old age and was buried. Lamech (Noah's father) had already died some five years before the Flood. For Methuselah was born about 3427 BC, and Lamech was born when his father Methuselah was 187 (Genesis 5:25). So Lamech was born about 3240 BC, and he died 777 years later (Genesis 5:31), which was about 2463 BC, which was five years before the Flood.

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I have not read the whole post but I feel I need to interject here right off the bat where we differ regarding mid-trib. You seem to be forgetting the first half of the tribulation. This is where Israel is protected, and the beast goes after Christians. (Revelation 12:17)

Beginning with the Jewish nation their culture is of the highest regard , it always has been dating back before Israel was a nation. Anyone familiar with bible prophecy knows there will be a temple built that will be involved in the great trib . Even before it is built the Jews have gone to extreme lengths to remake all of the furnishings to be exact as they were in biblical times . They do not want to use modern manufacturing processes to make the furnishings or the garments or even the harps that will be used in the temple services.
Their heritage is so important to have everything exactly the way it was in biblical times they even use ancient methods to create the very special blue dye for the priests garments by finding a very special shell and crush it into a powder to create this blue dye. The Jews are very meticulous in the ways they carry on their heritage going to extreme lengths to make everything as authentic to the ancient days.
When it came time to make copies of the Torah and other scrolls there are special laws that must be followed in every letter on the scrolls and if a mistake is made there are specific measures by law that must be done just to make the correction and if there is an error when writing the name of God there is a law that requires a special protocol to be followed and bury that scroll and a new scroll has to be made starting from scratch from the beginning regardless how close the document was to being complete. There is a lot more but I am laying the foundation pattern as to how critically important it is to the Jewish culture to be so meticulous as it is meant to be seen as reverence and obedience to God.
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We are taught many times throughout the bible how extremely important and highly regarded Marriage is , it is so highly held that if a women was found to have had sex without being married she was to be stoned to death. If man and woman were found together having had sex and not being married they were both stoned to death.
God tells us that we should remain married until death , which shows the extreme high level of importance that marriage is unto God Almighty. In fact marriage is so highly regarded by God that he calls us His Bride and He is the Bridegroom. There will be an extremely high level of importance on the event called the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.
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It was the culture custom of the Jewish ppl that when a man wanted a woman to be his bride he had to pay a price for her hand in marriage. A man had to buy/purchase/pay a ransom sum for his bride in order to marry her .(Jesus paid the ransom for you whom is called His bride) A man known as Jacob who God had given the name of Israel who is the man that the nation Israel is named after. When Jacob met Rachel he agreed to pay the price of working labor to her father for the term of 7 Years and then when Lavin her father deceived him as at the wedding he discovered it was not Rachel but her sister because of the veil on the bride.
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Jacob truly loved Rachel and agreed to work another 7 Years of labor to pay for the price to have Rachel as his bride . Notice the 7 years theme ??
.study what a Dowry price is regarding marriage.
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Most ppl in America don’t even give a thought to the culture and laws of Israel since they do not live there , sadly when ppl study scripture it does not enter into their thoughts that understanding the laws and culture and the history of a country on the other side of the world that is vastly different than the western world would help them understand the scripture from the perspective of the ppl who wrote it.
The theme of a 7 year time period is given throughout the bible and the culture of the Jewish people. Understanding Daniels 70th week clearly shows the last 7 is the last 7 years of human run government and the Son of Perdition/Antichrist and his partner the False Prophet are the leaders in this last 7 years. At the midpoint of the covenant that was confirmed the Son Of Perdition declares he is God which begins the “abomination that makes desolate” which is the start of the Great Tribulation, The beginning of this 7 year time frame is the same time period for when the Restrainer steps out of the way and allows the Son of Perdition to be revealed which begins Daniels 70th week. Just because the first half of this 7 year period may not be as destructive as the last half of the 7 there is no reason to pretend there is no tribulation in the first half of this 7. There is serious tribulation happening now in that part of the world and the 70th week has not yet begun , common sense tells us it will become worse when it does.
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The following I received in an email some years ago , I do not recall the author but the contents perfectly demonstrate how the pre trib rapture model is supported by scripture and the tradition and culture of the Jewish ppl and how it matches the pattern set forth by God Almighty in the manner of the Marriage covenant and the Jewish Marriage customs.
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JEWISH MARRIAGE CUSTOMS
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It was a night of destiny. Jesus had gathered with His disciples in the Upper Room. In a few more hours He would be crucified on a cross. Jesus had been warning His disciples concerning His coming death, resurrection and ascension to heaven. The prospect of these events caused the disciples to be greatly disturbed. In order to ease their fears, Jesus made the following comforting promise:
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Let not your heart be troubled: you believe in God, Believe also in me. In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there you may be also. (John 14:1-3.)
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The first major step in a Jewish marriage was betrothal.
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1. Betrothal involved the establishment of a marriage covenant. By Jesus’ time it was usual for such a covenant to be established as the result of the prospective bridegroom taking the initiative.
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2. The prospective bridegroom would travel from his father’s house to the home of the prospective bride. There he would negotiate with the father of the young woman to determine the price (mohar) that he must pay to purchase his bride.
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3. Once the bridegroom paid the purchase price, the marriage covenant was thereby established, and the young man and woman were regarded to be husband and wife.
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4. From that moment on the bride was declared to be consecrated or sanctified, set apart exclusively for her bridegroom.
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5. As a symbol of the covenant relationship that had been established, the groom and bride would drink from a cup of wine over which a betrothal benediction had been pronounced.
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6. After the marriage covenant had been established, the groom would leave the home of the bride and return to his father’s house. There he would remain separate from his bride for a period of twelve months.
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7. This period of separation afforded the bride time to gather her trousseau and to prepare for married life.
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8. The groom occupied himself with the preparation of living accommodations in his father’s house to which he could bring his bride. At the end of the period of separation the groom would come to take his bride to live with him. The taking of the bride usually took place at night. The groom, best man and other male escorts would leave the groom’s father’s house and conduct a torch light procession to the home of the bride.
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9. Although the bride was expecting her groom to come for her, she did not know the exact time of his coming.
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10. As a result the groom’s arrival would be Preceded By a Shout.
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11. This shout would forewarn the bride to be prepared for the coming of the groom. After the groom received his bride together with her female attendants, the enlarged wedding party would Return From the bride’s home to the Groom’s Father’s House.
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12. Upon arrival there the wedding party would find that the wedding guests had assembled already. Shortly after arrival the bride and groom would be escorted by the other members of the wedding party to the bridal chamber (huppah). Prior to entering the chamber the bride remained veiled so that no one could see her face.
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13. While the groomsmen and bridesmaids would wait outside, the bride and groom would enter the bridal chamber alone. There in the privacy of that place they would enter into physical union for the first time, thereby consummating the marriage that had been covenanted earlier.
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14. After the marriage was consummated, the groom would announce the consummation to the other members of the wedding party waiting outside the chamber (John 3:29). These people would pass on the news of the marital union to the wedding guests.
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15. Upon receiving this good news the wedding guests would feast and make merry for the next seven(7) days.
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16. During the seven(7) days of the wedding festivities, which were sometimes called “the seven(7) days of the huppah,” the Bride Remained Hidden in the bridal chamber.
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17. At the conclusion of these seven(7) days the groom would bring his bride out of the bridal chamber, now with her veil removed, so that all could see who his bride was.
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The Examination of the Analogy
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Earlier it was stated that in His promise in John 14 Jesus drew an analogy from Jewish marriage customs in biblical times. Now that the marriage customs have been considered, it is essential that the analogy be examined. In what ways was Jesus’ promise analogous with Jewish marriage customs? In the examination of the analogy the first thing that should be noted is the fact that the Scriptures regard the Church to be the Bride of Christ (Eph. 5:22-23). In addition, just as the Jewish bridegroom took the initiative in marriage by leaving his father’s house and traveling to the home of the prospective bride, so Jesus left His Father’s house in heaven and traveled to earth, the home of His prospective Church, over 1900 years ago.
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In the same manner as the Jewish bridegroom came to the bride’s home for the purpose of obtaining her through the establishment of a marriage covenant, so Jesus came to earth for the purpose of obtaining the Church through the establishment of a covenant
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On the same night in which Jesus made His promise in John 14 He instituted communion. As He passed the cup of wine to His disciples, He said: “This cup is the new covenant in my blood” (1 Cor. 11:25). This was His way of saying that He would establish a new covenant through the shedding of His blood on the cross.
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Parallel to the custom of the Jewish groom paying a price to purchase his bride, Jesus paid a price to purchase His bride, the Church. The price that He paid was His own life blood. It was because of this purchase price that Paul wrote the following to members of the Church: “know ye not that…ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and your spirit, which are God’s” (1 Cor. 6:19-20).
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Analogous with the Jewish bride being declared to be sanctified or set apart exclusively for her groom once the marriage covenant was established, the Church has been declared to be sanctified or set apart exclusively for Christ (Eph. 5:25-27; 1Cor. 1:2; 6:11; Heb. 10:10; 13:12).
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In the same way that a cup of wine served as a symbol of the marriage covenant through which the Jewish groom obtained his bride, so the cup of communion serves as the symbol of the covenant through which Christ has obtained the Church (1 Cor. 11:25).
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Just as the Jewish groom left the home of his bride and returned to his father’s house after the marriage covenant had been established, so Jesus left the earth, the home of the Church, and returned to His Father’s house in heaven after He had established the new covenant and risen from the dead (John 6:62; 20:17).
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Corresponding with the period of separation between the Jewish groom and bride, Christ has remained separate from the Church for over 1900 years. The Church is now living in that period of separation.
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Parallel to the custom of the Jewish groom preparing living accommodations for his bride in his father’s house during the time of separation, Christ has been preparing living accommodations for the Church in His Father’s house in heaven during His separation from His Bride (John 14:2).
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In the same manner as the Jewish groom came to take his bride to live with him at the end of the period of separation, so Christ will come to take His Church to live with Him at the end of His period of separation from the Church (John 14:3).
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Just as the taking of the Jewish bride was accomplished by a procession of the groom and male escorts from the groom’s father’s house to the home of the bride, so the taking of the Church will be accomplished by a procession of Christ and an angelic escort from Christ’s Father’s house in heaven to the home of the Church (1 Thess. 4:16).
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Analogous with the Jewish bride not knowing the exact time of the groom’s coming for her, the Church does not know the exact time of Christ’s coming for her.
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In the same way that the Jewish groom’s arrival was preceded by a shout, so Christ’s arrival to take the Church will be preceded by a shout (1 Thess. 4:16).
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Similar to the Jewish bride’s return with the groom to his father’s house after her departure from her home, the Church will return with Christ to His Father’s house in heaven after she is snatched from the earth to meet Him in the air (1 Thess. 4:17; John 14:2-3).
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In the same manner as the Jewish wedding party found wedding guests assembled in the groom’s father’s house when they arrived, so Christ and the Church will find the souls of Old Testament saints assembled in heaven when they arrive. These souls will serve as the wedding guests.
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Parallel to the custom of the Jewish groom and bride entering into physical union after their arrival at the groom’s father’s house, thereby consummating the marriage that had been covenanted earlier, Christ and the Church will experience spiritual union after their arrival at His Father’s house in heaven, thereby consummating their relationship that had been covenanted earlier.
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Corresponding with the Jewish bride remaining hidden in the bridal chamber for a period of seven(7) days after arrival at the groom’s father’s house, the Church will remain hidden for a period of seven(7) after arrival at Christ’s Father’s house in heaven. While the seven(7) year Tribulation Period is taking place on the earth, the Church will be in heaven totally hidden from the sight of those living on the earth. Daniels 70th is this 7 year time frame known as the 7 year Tribulation
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Just as the Jewish groom brought his bride out of the bridal chamber at the conclusion of the seven(7) days with her veil removed, so that all could see who his bride was,
So Christ will bring His Church out of heaven in His Second Coming at the conclusion of the seven(7) year Tribulation Period in full view of all who are alive, so that all can see who the true church is (Col. 3:4).
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the analogy is most significant also for those who have taken Christ to be Saviour. During the time of separation between the establishment of the marriage covenant and the coming of the
bridegroom to take his bride, it was possible for the Jewish bride to commit adultery by giving herself to another man. In like manner it is possible for believers today to commit spiritual adultery against Christ before He returns to take His Church. Paul expressed concern over this possibility when he wrote the following to Christians:
“For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. But I fear lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ” (2 Cor.11:2-3).
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James expressed the same concern when he rebuked Christians as follows: “Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship with the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.” (James 4:4) The context of James’ statement indicates that spiritual adultery is committed when a believer becomes more devoted to the godless world system and the things that please it than he is to Jesus Christ and the things that please Him.
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Unfortunately it completely missed the entire purpose and point of my earlier post as it was not meant to be the answer to the equation. It was intended for you to see this matter from a wider lens. Like the saying that 'you can't see the forest for the trees' if you get too close to your TV screen or computer monitor you will not see everything on the screen as you have to be at a distance to see it all.
As I said before if you choose not to study the culture , the laws , the lifestyles and daily practices and rituals of the Jewish people you will miss a whole lot of the information that clarifies what the scriptures teach as the scriptures are a combination of God Almighty commands and the Jewish culture.
When Jesus said "But of that day and hour knoweth no man......, but my Father only".
It was a direct reference to the long held Jewish Marriage Custom that it is only the father of the groom that knows when the marriage will take place and all of the arrangements because that tradition was so overwhelming understood that he knew that the audience would 'get it' without any further explanation.
Simple ways to express this is like "what goes up must____" fill in the blank , how fast did the answer come to you ? or other idioms like "Wake up call" ...'when the rubber meets the road' 'wild goose chase' and 'the boy who cried wolf' , any of these are instantaneously understood because they are used so often that they have become a part of the culture ; and likewise Jesus used phrases that were used in the day in which he walked the earth.
As the Jewish Marriage customs dated way back thousands of years into the Old Testament times. The previous post was to show a side by side comparison between the highly regarded and thousands year old traditions comparing how marriage was performed and how the scriptures illustrate and represent the references given by Paul and other writers inspired by the Holy Spirit to write about the fact that Jesus is the Bridegroom and the Bride of Christ the Church-born-again Christians who have obtained salvation through Christ Jesus .
There are Messianic Jews who are part of the Bride , but there are also many Jews who still reject Jesus as Messiah whom are not part of the Bride Church and like any other person who rejects Jesus the only way they can become part of the Bride is to accept Jesus as Messiah Savoir .
Notice I highlighted the words 'analogy' from the beginning of the post to the end.
Jesus often spoke in parables which are similar to analogies- he did this to try to relate topics to the people in a way to make things which are often hard to describe in a manner easier to understand.

1stcenturylady said in post #233:

You seem to be forgetting the first half of the tribulation. This is where Israel is protected, and the beast goes after Christians. (Revelation 12:17)

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Note that the woman in Revelation 12 represents the church (which is Israel: Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). For she is clothed with the sun (Revelation 12:1) of righteousness (Malachi 4:2) through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the church clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8). And the moon under her feet (Revelation 12:1) represents Satan under her feet (Romans 16:20) as she overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). And the crown of twelve stars on her head (Revelation 12:1) represents the twelve apostles (of Matthew 10:2-4, Acts 1:16-26), who have been placed over the church (1 Corinthians 12:28).

Her giving birth to the "man child", and his being caught up to the throne of God (Revelation 12:5) immediately before she flees into the wilderness for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6), represents the future, mid-tribulation catching up of the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church in their mortal bodies to the throne of God in heaven (Revelation 14:1,4-5, Textus Receptus), like how Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies to heaven (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11).

Her fleeing into and remaining in a protected wilderness place for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6,14) represents those in the church who will flee into and remain in divinely-protected wilderness places during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), which will occur during the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

The remnant of her seed (Revelation 12:17) represents those in the church during that time who will not flee into wilderness places, but will remain in the cities and be persecuted in every nation, being imprisoned and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, Genesis 37:9-10 is not (as is sometimes claimed) being referred to in Revelation 12:1. For in Revelation 12:1, the church/Israel is not clothed with the man Jacob (Genesis 37:9-10), but with the sun of righteousness (Malachi 4:2), through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the church/Israel clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8, cf. also Revelation 21:2,9,12). Also, the church/Israel does not have the woman Rachel under her feet (Genesis 37:9-10), but Satan (Romans 16:20), as the church/Israel overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). And the church/Israel does not have Jacob's twelve sons placed over her (Genesis 37:9-10), but the twelve apostles (1 Corinthians 12:28, Matthew 10:2, Acts 1:26), each one of whom will rule over one of her twelve tribes (Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30).

Bible2+ said:

Note that the ten virgins parable (Matthew 25:1-13) shows that the marriage of the church to Jesus will not occur until his second coming (Matthew 25:10), which Jesus had just finished saying will not occur until "immediately after the tribulation"
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The marriage supper (Revelation 19:9) will not have yet begun by the time of Revelation 19, which will not begin until after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24

Note that the ten virgins parable (Matthew 25:1-13) shows that the marriage of the church to Jesus will not occur until his second coming (Matthew 25:10), which Jesus had just finished saying will not occur until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31),

The marriage supper (Revelation 19:9) will not have yet begun by the time of Revelation 19, which will not begin until after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (cf. Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). For regarding the church, the marriage supper will be a literal feast in the earthly Jerusalem after the resurrection and marriage of the church at Jesus' second coming (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54,

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Matthew 25 parable of the 10 virgins is not referring to the marriage at all , something much different , It compares to Matt 7:21-23
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
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The 10 virgins represent people who claim to follow Jesus but only 5 of them really do as the other 5 are like unto the people who go to church on Sunday and party the rest of the week , living in a manner unpleasing the the LORD, On Sunday they present themselves as Christians but choose to live in a manner that is not acceptable as they think they have plenty of time before Jesus comes , They are like the ones who have the experience of Matt 25:
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the Door Was Shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
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The thing here is those scriptures do not reveal when the marriage supper happens , just because it is mentioned in Revelation does mean it happens then , just as in the OT prophets speak of the Day of The Lord does not mean it happened in the OT time frame. There are these matters that are not going to be stated exactly when they happen , that is by design
I don't have the time to clarify the other matters but will later , but I will give an example of a false understanding that many have that is a classic of misinterpretation due to the lack of the study of the Jewish culture and laws and traditions. Some people say that the Last Trumpet blast spoken of by Paul in Corinthians(referencing the rapture) is the same trumpet blast as the seventh angel in Revelation which are 2 different matters , as people reason that the seventh angel in Revelation is the last angel blowing a trumpet so it is falsely assumed it is the same as what Paul speaks of as the Last Trumpet.
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The answer is easy to get if a person is willing to study the Jewish traditions. There are very important timeline dates appointed by God that directly relate to the Trumpet Feast days , there a several of them.
Remember that Christians / Christianity are grafted into the Jewish 'family of God' , (not the best wording) but recall it is the Jewish people which are called "Gods chosen people" and Christ came from the lineage of Jews , Christians are grafted into this . NOT the other way around .
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Please show me the scripture that clearly describes the marriage supper happens on earth and Jesus Marriage after Jesus return to earth , I mean where it is crystal clear that it cannot be refuted , . When people make declarative statements it should be as solid as "Jesus died on the cross" It is clear concise and not refutable . I do not believe you can find such a scripture ,

seventysevens said in post #234:

Anyone familiar with bible prophecy knows there will be a temple built that will be involved in the great trib .

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That's right.

For Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36, and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 require that there will be a third Jewish temple in the earthly Jerusalem during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This third temple will coexist with the church like the second temple did (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17), and like the temple building in heaven does (Revelation 11:19). The third temple could be built on Jerusalem's Temple Mount by the ultra-Orthodox Jews, after they (or great earthquakes) clear the site by destroying the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque. Shortly after they build the temple, the Antichrist could attack and defeat them, and a false Messiah leading them (Daniel 11:22).

Then the Antichrist could "cut" a peace treaty with them and their false "Messiah" (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:23a), permitting them to keep the temple, and to continue to (mistakenly) perform the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices in front of it, for at least seven years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims, so that the Muslims can rebuild the Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. The ultra-Orthodox Jews could grudgingly agree to this, if the only other option is for them to lose the temple entirely. They could then build a high wall between the temple and the mosque in order to keep the temple from being "defiled".

But then, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty, the Antichrist will break the treaty, attack the temple, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, place the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Daniel 9:27b, Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15), and then sit himself (at least one time) in the temple and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). Thus could begin the Antichrist's literal, 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

At the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the Antichrist (Daniel 11:45) and the world's armies will pillage Jerusalem right before Jesus' second coming (Zechariah 14:2-21). And at the second coming, there will be tremendous earth changes in the vicinity of Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:4-5). These events could result in all of Jerusalem's structures, including the third temple and the Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall), being broken down so that not one stone will be left upon another (Luke 19:44, Matthew 24:2). Then the returned Jesus (Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11-12) will rebuild Jerusalem and make it the capital of the world (Zechariah 14:8-19, Micah 4:1-4). He will also build a fourth temple there (Zechariah 14:20-21, Zechariah 6:12-13). It will serve a similar function for the church during the future millennium (of Revelation 20:4-6) as the second temple served for the church in the first century AD (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17), and as the temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19) serves for those in heaven (Revelation 7:15).

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One reason that the third Jewish temple of Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36, and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 has not been built yet is the Israeli government has been careful to protect the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque ever since Israel took military control of the Temple Mount back in 1967. For the Israeli government knows that if the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel were to destroy these buildings (the third-holiest sites in Islam) in order to clear the Temple Mount for a third Jewish temple, this could mean the end of the current state of Israel. For enraged Muslim armies and militias could attack Israel en masse in an all-out jihad and defeat it completely.

While the ultra-Orthodox Jews are no doubt aware of this danger, they believe that the third Jewish temple must nonetheless be built exactly where the prior Jewish temples stood: right over the Rock of Sacrifice (the Rock of the Dome of the Rock) on which Abraham almost sacrificed Isaac. And the ultra-Orthodox Jews could be brought to the point where they will even desire to see the end of the current, secular state of Israel, believing that only in its demise will God make it possible for them to establish a new, perfectly ultra-Orthodox, theocratic city-state of (what they could call) "the True Israel". They could establish this within the walled Old City of Jerusalem (which contains the Temple Mount), and build on the Temple Mount a third Jewish temple before which they can restart the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, and perfectly keep every jot and tittle of the Mosaic law, and banish every non-kosher person and thing from ever entering within Old Jerusalem's "Holy walls".

(This could point to another reason why the current, secular government of Israel does not want to let the ultra-Orthodox Jews build a third Jewish temple: out of fear that the secular authority of the Israeli government could subsequently get undermined. For once temple practices resumed and a priesthood came into power, a creep toward theocracy could ensue in Israel, where priests and rabbis would become powerful enough to replace the secular leaders in Israel. So the secular leaders could want to simply place a hold on any drift in that direction by forbidding the building of a third Jewish temple.)

Something which could help to bring the ultra-Orthodox Jews to the point of desiring to see the end of the current, secular state of Israel would be them getting squeezed out of their settlements in Samaria and Judaea (also called the West Bank), and in eastern Jerusalem, as part of a peace deal handing these areas over to a Palestinian state. For the ultra-Orthodox Jews (rightly) see Samaria, Judaea, and Jerusalem as the historically most important and holy parts of the land promised by God to Israel since the time of Abraham (Exodus 32:13). So when they start to get squeezed out of these areas, in a rage they could suddenly mass in their tens of thousands, armed with machine guns (which they are allowed to have for self-defense against the Palestinians). And led by three huge bulldozers, they could march as a great army to the Old City of Jerusalem, and go up onto the Temple Mount and completely destroy the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque.

(A fear of the ultra-Orthodox Jews resorting to violence could be one of the reasons that the current Israeli government refuses to hinder Jewish settlement activity in Samaria, Judaea, and eastern Jerusalem. It could also be one of the reasons that the U.S. government has been convinced by Israel to back off from requiring any such hindrance, even though the U.S. sometimes complains about the settlements. But if down the road, the current, geriatric, lifeless leadership of Fatah is replaced by a younger, very-energetic leadership, which is able to whip up pressure from the Middle East's Arab masses and governments (not to mention from even non-Arab governments, such as the French or the EU) for a Palestinian state, and if this pressure becomes so extreme that it begins to threaten to overthrow U.S. hegemony over the Arab world, the U.S. could decide to force Israel to surrender all of the Jewish settlements to a Palestinian state. Also, there could be a gradual change within Israel itself, until a majority of Israelis, including civilians, army leaders, judges, etc., decide that it is time to remove the current, hard-line Israeli government, and replace it, via elections, with a more liberal government which will be willing to implement a two-state solution with the Palestinians.)

Besides the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel getting squeezed out of their settlements at some point in our future, something else which could help to tip the scales toward them becoming violent would be the rising up of a miracle-working, ultra-Orthodox Jewish false "Messiah" (cf. Matthew 24:24), who could tell the ultra-Orthodox Jews something like:

"God says that now is the time for us to take back religious control of the Holy Temple Mount, and rid it of all the detestable shrines which the Muslims have placed upon it. We are to sanctify it in the name of our God, so that we might rebuild His Holy Temple there. Listen, my brethren, fear not the Muslims' reaction when we retake religious control of the Holy Temple Mount. For God Himself is with us. He will protect us perfectly. Have I not shown you His mighty Power working through Me? Fear not any men, but fear only our Mighty God, who now commands us to rebuild His Holy Temple at the place which He determined from the time of our Father Abraham. Our God gave us back the Holy Temple Mount way back in 1967 C.E. But what have we done with it over all the time since then? Nothing! How can this be? How can we have allowed some merely-secular, so-called 'Israeli' government invented by sinful men to keep us, God's holy people, from even setting foot back on the Temple Mount, and to let it remain under the religious control of the vile Muslims? Let us all rise up now, my brethren! Let us all rise up, in the name of our God, and let us do mighty exploits to the Glory of His Holy Name!"

With such rhetoric, accompanied by his working of amazing miracles (cf. Matthew 24:24), a false ultra-Orthodox Jewish "Messiah" in Israel could whip up the ultra-Orthodox Jews there into a religious frenzy, so that they will all with great zeal, and without any fear, march in their tens of thousands to the Temple Mount, and take total control of it, and then rejoice there and dance and sing holy hymns to God "for His great and mighty Victory".

Something else which could help to tip the scales toward the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel becoming violent is the occurrence of a series of great earthquakes in Jerusalem which will severely damage the Dome of the Rock and Al Aqsa Mosque, to the point where they will stop being used. For the ultra-Orthodox Jews could see this as (in their words) "Clearly a portent from God that he will no longer allow the Muslims to trample His Holy Mountain. We must now reassert Jewish religious control over it and rebuild His Holy Temple there".

Something else which could help to tip the scales toward the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel becoming violent is their finding out the location of the Ark of the Covenant, which could be buried under an ancient ruined fort in the desert east of Jerusalem. The Copper Scroll could contain the clues as to where the Ark is buried in the fort (e.g. "under the third step"). The Ark could have been located there already with ground-penetrating radar by some non-religious treasure hunters, but the Israeli government could be holding up a digging permit to retrieve the Ark, because the government is afraid that the ultra-Orthodox Jews could see a retrieval of the Ark as (in their words) "An unmistakable sign from God that now is the time for us to rebuild His Holy Temple". So the Israeli government has a motive to keep the location of the buried Ark top secret.

Fearing that some ultra-Orthodox Jews could nonetheless somehow discover the top secret location of the buried Ark, and go there in the dead of night and dig it up without a permit from, or any notification to, the Israeli government, the government could have placed armed guards and surveillance cameras to watch over the buried Ark's location day and night.

But if the buried Ark's location is found out by some ultra-Orthodox Jews, they could round up tens of thousands of their fellows, armed with machine guns, and they could suddenly swarm the location, overwhelm any armed guards there, and hold off any subsequently-arrived IDF troops long enough to get the Ark out of the ground. Once it is out and the IDF troops actually see it, it is unlikely that they are going to try to stop the ultra-Orthodox Jews from parading it to the Temple Mount, they will be in such awe.

Also, once the ultra-Orthodox Jews make it to the Temple Mount and begin completely destroying the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque, it is unlikely that the IDF troops are going to open fire, whether with lead bullets or rubber bullets, on their fellow Jews, slaughtering or injuring hundreds or thousands of them. Also, increasing numbers of IDF officers are very religious, so that they could order their troops to stand down. And if some non-religious officers convince their troops to employ tear gas in an attempt to simply disperse the ultra-Orthodox Jews without harming them, this could be thwarted by the ultra-Orthodox Jews having brought along gas masks (which, ironically, could have been issued to them by the Israeli government itself, back when there was a fear that Saddam Hussein would send Scud missiles into Israel with chemical weapons payloads).

So the Israeli government could be unable to prevent the complete destruction of the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque at the hands of the ultra-Orthodox Jews. And so the Israeli government could be unable to prevent the subsequent, retaliatory destruction of the state of Israel at the hands of enraged Muslim armies and militias.

seventysevens said in post #234:

Similar to the Jewish bride’s return with the groom to his father’s house after her departure from her home, the Church will return with Christ to His Father’s house in heaven after she is snatched from the earth to meet Him in the air (1 Thess. 4:17; John 14:2-3).

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Do you mean that the rapture will take believers into the third heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 12:2b)? If so, note that no scripture requires that believers will be raptured any higher than the clouds of the sky (the first heaven) to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). After that meeting, in which the church will be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), and the obedient part of the church will be married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7, Matthew 25:1-13), the obedient part of the church will come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:15-21) to physically reign on the earth with him for a thousand years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). After the thousand years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), the obedient part of the church will live on a new earth with God the Father and Jesus in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation chapters 21-22).

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There are three heavens (2 Corinthians 12:2b). The first heaven is the sky, the atmosphere, in which the birds fly (Genesis 1:20b). The second heaven is outer space, where the sun, moon, and stars reside (Deuteronomy 4:19). Where God resides is the third heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2b, Revelation 4:1-2), and so it is beyond outer space, in the sense of it being in a higher (i.e. a fourth) spatial dimension. And it is a physical place, for Jesus ascended there in his physical resurrection body (Acts 1:9-11, Luke 24:39). And Paul said that he could have visited there in his physical body (2 Corinthians 12:2). Also, Elijah and Enoch were taken up there in their physical bodies (2 Kings 2:11, Genesis 5:24, Hebrews 11:5). And the two witnesses will be taken up there in their physical bodies (Revelation 11:11-12).

In the third heaven, there is currently a literal city fifteen hundred miles cubed (Revelation 21:16), which is called New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2), the heavenly Jerusalem (Hebrews 12:22), the Jerusalem which is above (Galatians 4:26), and the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:2-3). In the future, God will create a new earth (a new surface of the earth) and a new heaven (a new first heaven, a new atmosphere for the earth) (Revelation 21:1). And then God will come down in New Jerusalem from the third heaven to the new earth to live with people on the new earth (Revelation 21:2-3, Revelation 3:12b). It is New Jerusalem which has the literal pearly gates and streets of gold (Revelation 21:21) which people ascribe to heaven. So what people think of as heaven, in the sense of living in bliss with God, will eventually be on the new earth.

Currently, the third heaven is where paradise is (2 Corinthians 12:2,4). And paradise is where Christians go when they die (Luke 23:43,46). So Christians go to the third heaven when they die. Also, paradise is where the literal tree of life is (Revelation 2:7). And the tree of life is in New Jerusalem (Revelation 22:2). So when people go to paradise, they go to New Jerusalem.

The earth's third heaven could be high above the north pole (cf. the connection between heaven and the north in Isaiah 14:13, KJV). Regarding what we today call "the northern lights", even though they can be explained by physics, they could still point to the location of the glory of the earth's third heaven. And Psalm 48:2's reference to the north could refer to the location of New Jerusalem in heaven.

seventysevens said in post #237:

The thing here is those scriptures do not reveal when the marriage supper happens , just because it is mentioned in Revelation does mean it happens then , just as in the OT prophets speak of the Day of The Lord does not mean it happened in the OT time frame.

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Note that just as the marriage of the church to Jesus will occur at his second coming (Matthew 25:10, Revelation 19:7-21), so the future day of the Lord (Christ) (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at his second coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which will not occur until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, "immediately after" the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), which is when the rapture (the gathering together) of the church will occur (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

seventysevens said in post #237:

There are these matters that are not going to be stated exactly when they happen . . .

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Note that Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are chronological insofar as the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will begin with the events of the second through sixth seals, occurring in the order shown in Revelation 6:3-14. After the events of the sixth seal, Revelation 7 will occur. Then the seventh seal will be unsealed, and out of it will come the tribulation's seven trumpets (Revelation 8:1-6). Then the events of the first six trumpets in Revelation 8:7 to Revelation 9:21 will occur in the order shown there. Then Revelation 10 will occur. Then the literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign will occur, which time period is shown from four different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13).

Then the seventh trumpet will sound, announcing the legal end of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 11:15). Out of the seventh trumpet's heavenly-temple opening will come the seven plagues of the seven vials (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the tribulation's final stage. Then the events of the seven vials will occur in the order shown in Revelation 16. Jesus will return right after the seventh and last vial (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), and he will rapture and marry the church at that time (Revelation 19:7). Then he will defeat the world's armies (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3) and reign on the earth with the physically resurrected church for a thousand years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29; 1 Corinthians 15:51-53). Then the events of Revelation 20:7 to Revelation 22:5 will occur in the order shown there.

seventysevens said in post #237:

Some people say that the Last Trumpet blast spoken of by Paul in Corinthians(referencing the rapture) is the same trumpet blast as the seventh angel in Revelation . . .

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That is a mistaken idea of the pre-wrath rapture view, which is different than the post-tribulation rapture view.

For regarding the seventh trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19), note that it does not refer to any coming of Jesus. Instead, Revelation 11:15 refers to the future point in time (to us) (Revelation 4:1b) when Jesus will take ultimate, legal, physical authority over the earth, away from Satan (cf. Luke 4:5-7) and Satan's fallen angels (Ephesians 6:12), and away from the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-18, cf. Revelation 12:9) and the Antichrist's ten kings (Revelation 17:12-13), right when the seventh trumpet sounds. It will not be until a little later that Jesus will physically return and take de facto, physical control of the earth at his second coming and during the subsequent millennium (Revelation 19:11 to 20:6).

Jesus' second coming will not occur immediately after the sounding of the tribulation's seventh trumpet and the declaration of the legal replacement of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5 year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18, Revelation 12:6,14) with Jesus' reign (Revelation 11:15). For a "time" (Revelation 11:18) can last awhile (cf. Revelation 12:14). It is like if someone said: "It is time to sell this house"; this does not mean that it will get sold immediately. The only part of Revelation 11:18 which will happen immediately after the seventh trumpet sounds is "thy wrath is come". For the plagues of the vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, will come out of the seventh trumpet's heavenly-temple opening (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1).

So the seventh trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19), even though it will be the last trumpet to sound during the tribulation, will not be the resurrection "last trump" of 1 Corinthians 15:52. The latter will not sound until after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, at Jesus' second coming (Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16), which will not occur until Revelation 19, and which is when the church will be physically resurrected (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Before the second coming, the tribulation's final, Revelation 16 stage could last for seventy-five days. For the first vial in Revelation 16 could be poured out immediately after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5), which 1,260 days could begin when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a third Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36). And Jesus could return on the 1,335th day after the setting up of the abomination of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). An analogy for the possible seventy-five-day vials-delay between Jesus taking legal possession of the earth (Revelation 11:15) and his return to take de facto, physical possession of it (Revelation chapters 19-20) would be someone in New York legally inheriting a house in California, seventy-five days before he moves there to live in that house.

At Jesus' second coming, only the church will be physically resurrected and judged (1 Corinthians 15:21-23; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Psalms 50:3-6, cf. Mark 13:27). And then Jesus will marry the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12). Then Revelation 19:11-21 will occur. So both the resurrection and the rewarding of the church spoken of in Revelation 11:18, as well as the destroying of the destroyers of the earth spoken of in Revelation 11:18, could occur seventy-five days after the seventh trumpet's sounding. And because a "time" can last awhile (cf. Revelation 12:14), this would still be well within the "time" referred to in Revelation 11:18.

Everyone not physically resurrected and judged at Jesus' second coming will not be physically resurrected and judged until Revelation 20:11-15, which will not occur until sometime after the returned Jesus and the physically resurrected church have reigned on the earth for a thousand years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). Both resurrections and judgments can still occur within Revelation 11:18's "time". For the original Greek word (kairos: G2540) translated there as "time" can refer to even quite a long period. For example, the same Greek word is used in 2 Corinthians 6:2 to refer to the "time" of people getting saved, which has been going on for thousands of years.

seventysevens said in post #237:

There are very important timeline dates appointed by God that directly relate to the Trumpet Feast days . . .

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It is sometimes said that the last trump has to sound pre-tribulation, in order to fulfill the feasts.

But note that all of the Old Covenant feasts can have a New Covenant fulfillment without requiring a pre-tribulation rapture.

For Christ's death was the fulfillment of the Passover (Leviticus 23:5; 1 Corinthians 5:7b). And his resurrection was the fulfillment of the firstfruits of Leviticus 23:10 (1 Corinthians 15:20). The general salvation of the church could be a subsequent fulfillment of the firstfruits of Leviticus 23:10 (James 1:18). And the 144,000 part of the church could be a subsequent fulfillment of the firstfruits presented to the Lord (Leviticus 23:10b-11, Revelation 14:4b).

The fifty days, firstfruits, and two loaves of Leviticus 23:16-17 could have been fulfilled at the Pentecost in Acts 2, and subsequently, when the firstfruits of the Spirit (Romans 8:23) were poured out on (the first loaf) the Jews in the church (Acts 2:14-18) and then on (the second loaf) the Gentiles in the church (Acts 10:45b).

The feast of trumpets of Leviticus 23:24 could be fulfilled at Jesus' second coming, when the second-coming trumpet will sound (Matthew 24:30-31; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 1 Corinthians 15:52) after the seven trumpets of the tribulation have sounded (Revelation 8:2).

The day of atonement of Leviticus 23:27-28 could be fulfilled when Jesus saves all of the elect unbelieving Jews alive at his second coming (Romans 11:26-28, Zechariah 12:10-14).

The feast of tabernacles of Leviticus 23:34 could be fulfilled at the marriage feast (Revelation 19:9) which will be on the earth after the second coming (Isaiah 25:6-9). Paul quotes from Isaiah 25:8 in 1 Corinthians 15:54b, showing that the earthly feast of Isaiah 25:6-9 will be connected with the resurrection of the church at the second coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23, Revelation 20:4-6).

seventysevens said in post #237:

Remember that Christians / Christianity are grafted into the Jewish 'family of God' , (not the best wording) but recall it is the Jewish people which are called "Gods chosen people" and Christ came from the lineage of Jews , Christians are grafted into this . NOT the other way around .

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Good point.

For just as the Gentile Ruth (a genetic forbear of Israel's Messiah: Matthew 1:5-16, Luke 3:23-32) could say to the Israelite Naomi: "thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God" (Ruth 1:16), so Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29).

That is, all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the twelve tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they are Jews (Acts 22:3) or Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews, if they have undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

Also, note that the book of James is addressing "the twelve tribes" (James 1:1), which is the same as addressing people in the church (James 5:14), people with faith in Christ (James 2:1, James 1:3) (i.e. Christians), people who have been born again (James 1:18, cf. 1 Peter 1:23), who are waiting for Christ to return (James 5:7).