Futurist Only 12 Reasons Why the Pre-Trib Rapture Theory is a Lie

[Brian Mcnamee]

I speak TRUTH....you just can't handle The Truth....

1st off you start with a cut and pasted list which shows little original work and you are supporting a position you are led too. If you look at just a couple on your list you see the harvest mentioned in Rev 14 is the grapes that are gathered. You do not want to be in that harvest as that is when the Lord Jesus treads the wine press of his wrath. This is mentioned several times throughout scripture using this idiom. Item 2 is bad exegesis as the pattern is like an allegory one can find support from the flood and Enoch as a pattern supporting the rapture. The tone is mean and confrontational calling this view a lie. You see most who believe the rapture take most of scripture literally. They are solid on salvation through Christ alone by faith and keep to recognizing sin as sin and not politically or socially correct. The lack of grace in your tone for those who disagree with you on what really is a non essential issue is a sad reflection on your maturity. I did really not want to enter this discussion as we are told to avoid this type of divisive strife.

Rom: Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them.

Tim: But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife.

But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless.

The issue and debate on these issues should be to seek the truth and not spew venom or cause strife. I respect your right to hold a different opinion. Most on this issue try to isolate the rapture apart from the tribulation and millennium. As large denominations like Catholics call the futuristic beliefs heresy. The full debate includes the nation of Israel and its role. The kingdom coming to earth for 1000 years and then the great white throne and all. Perhaps if you embraced that we have the same gospel and disagree with each other on this issue we would not be calling each other liars and stirring up strife.

 

[jerry kelso]

To all,

1. One has to understand the overall plan of redemption from the beginning and the progression to the end.

2. Two terms represent the overall plan; the KoH and the KoG.
The KoH is baselia in Greek meaning a realm, or a region governed by a king.
Daniel 7:27 kingdom under the whole Heaven which is the earth under Heaven where God lives.
The Physical KoG is the whole universe that God rules over for Heaven and earth is his footstool and the earthly sphere is a part of the physical KoG universe.
The KoH is out of harmony either KoG and will be brought back into harmony with the universal KoG so God can be all in all 1 Corinthians 15:24-28.

3. The KoH spiritual is more about contains spiritual things in the physical kingdom.
In the garden everything was perfect before Adam and Eve had sinned Genesis 1-3.
The spiritual aspect of the KoG was the spiritual rule in their heart which they had until they sinned Genesis 3:6-7; 14-19 ( the curses) and kicked out of the garden verses 22-24.
The terms are not used but they are in Jesus day to explain the restitution of all things Joel 2 talks about and Peter reaffirms of the signs he recognized in Acts 2 and Acts 19 and which Paul talks about creation groaning waiting for redemption as well as all creation in Romans 818-25; both physical earth and physical and spiritual man.

4. Fast forward to the gospels and John the Baptist who preached the KoH and repentance Matthew 3:2 and Jesus started in Matthew 4:17 and Jesus said in Luke he came to seek and save that which was lost which was the KoH and the KoG in the big picture.
In short the Jews were never told to seek the KoH for salvation but the KoG was; Matthew 6:33; Luke 17:20. The KoH term is only used in Matthew.

5. The promises of the KoH were both through the Abrahamic and Davidic Covenants to the Jewish people concerning the land in the KoH age Genesis 12-15; Matthew 5:5 including salvation without works Romans 4:3; Galatians 3:19.
The Davidic kingdom was through David a throne in his house forever as the capital over Israel 2 Samuel 7:5:16; 1Chronicles 28:2:7; Isaiah 9;6-7; Ezekiel 37:24 etc.
The law will go forth from earthly Mt. Zion forever Isaiah 2:2-4.

6. The Jews rejected the KoG in their hearts Matthew 23:37-39 and this first coming of Christ ended for the Jews earthly calling temporarily but not forever.

7. The KoG which is salvation was restored at the cross.
The KoH promised to the Jews as head of the nations and the covenants of Abraham and David and their gifts and callings Romans 11:25-29 will not be restored until the millennial KoH age when the nation of Israel will be purged from their sins Daniel 9:24-27 in the time of Jacob's trouble Daniel 9:27; 12:1-2: Matthew 24:15-21.

8. The church is being trained now for rulership positions in the millennial kingdom 2 Timothy 2:12 and do not have to be purged such as Israel because the gates of hell shall never prevail against the Church Matthew 16:18.

9. I have to go to work but I'all suffice to say this is the basis and beginning to understand the pre-trib rapture. Jerry kelso

 

[Archmike]

1st off you start with a cut and pasted list which shows little original work and you are supporting a position you are led too. If you look at just a couple on your list you see the harvest mentioned in Rev 14 is the grapes that are gathered. You do not want to be in that harvest as that is when the Lord Jesus treads the wine press of his wrath. This is mentioned several times throughout scripture using this idiom. Item 2 is bad exegesis as the pattern is like an allegory one can find support from the flood and Enoch as a pattern supporting the rapture. The tone is mean and confrontational calling this view a lie. You see most who believe the rapture take most of scripture literally. They are solid on salvation through Christ alone by faith and keep to recognizing sin as sin and not politically or socially correct. The lack of grace in your tone for those who disagree with you on what really is a non essential issue is a sad reflection on your maturity. I did really not want to enter this discussion as we are told to avoid this type of divisive strife.

Rom: Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them.

Tim: But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife.

But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless.

The issue and debate on these issues should be to seek the truth and not spew venom or cause strife. I respect your right to hold a different opinion. Most on this issue try to isolate the rapture apart from the tribulation and millennium. As large denominations like Catholics call the futuristic beliefs heresy. The full debate includes the nation of Israel and its role. The kingdom coming to earth for 1000 years and then the great white throne and all. Perhaps if you embraced that we have the same gospel and disagree with each other on this issue we would not be calling each other liars and stirring up strife.

I can assure you, Brian, that list is original to me, abeit copied from my files and pasted here.

The Harvest mentioned in Rev 14:14-16 is indeed The Rapture. I'll agree Rev 14:17-20 is relating to the winepress of the wrath of God.

You may want to note that IMMEDIATELY AFTER Rev 14 is shown, Rev 15:2 is written, which describes those in the GT RAPTURED to Heaven. We know they are from the GT because they have gotten victory over the Beast, his image and his mark.

I suppose....according to you, Brian.....the end times prophets ....so prophesied to arrive in the end times, will not quarrel with the 50 different beliefs on the timing of The Rapture. When discussing this subject, there is hardly any way to be ....well...."politically correct". So you see, Brian, someone is going to have to be "mean", and confrontational.....its just the nature of the beast, pardon the pun....Even Paul needed to be confrontational at times, and this is well-documented. BTW, I was not confrontational in that original list....and I am 61 yrs old, having studied The Revelation since 1976 when I was called to do so.

Incidentally, Catholicism is The Great harlot of Rev 17 & 18.....Likewise, The Harlots are Protestant denominations. Judaism is represented by the woman of Rev 12.....both symbolic women "give birth" to an offshoot religion. Judaism gave birth to Christianity, while The Great harlot as Catholicism gave birth to Protestantism.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I agree in fact I believe a mid tri rapture tbh, based off reading/teachings by my pastor I believe 3 1/2 years in the 7 year period when the beast sort of gets set up then whoever is saved will be raptured away but not before. (i'm referring to those that are still alive during this time of course, not those that happen to die before this even happens and I hope that happens to me tbh not gonna lie).

So you follow your pastor's belief in a mid-trib. rapture. Well, Revelation 12 and 13, then Revelation 6 and 7 shows us a few things. Be careful not to make the mistake of thinking every chapter throughout the whole of Revelation is in chronological order. Some chapters end a sequence, and the whole story starts over again in the next chapter. This happens multiple times during John's vision. For instance, just because chapters 2 and 3 show the history of the whole church from beginning to end, pre-tribbers believe chapter 4 STARTS with the rapture when the Spirit says to John (only) "Come up here," and the rest of Revelation is afterward. Wishful thinking...and blind as a bat at when Revelation refers to times before the church even began such as the beginning of chapter 12!

14 But the woman (Israel) was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time (first 3 1/2 years), from the presence of the serpent. 15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The "rest of her offspring" are Gentiles who were grafted into the Church (true Israel) Romans 11, and are alive at the time the GT starts and are martyred. BTW, it is unscriptural that any non-believing Gentile is saved during the GT as too many believe. No, when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, then the last 7 years begins for the Jews and the GT starts. All other Gentiles that have not accepted Christ to be saved will receive by God a "strong delusion" to accept the Antichrist instead.

The second half of the GT is when the Antichrist/Beast overcomes national Israel who has now converted through the ministry of the 144,000 Jews.

Revelation 13:And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them.

Again, what your pastor misses is that the Church is not Gentile. Yes, the last of the Gentiles are killed by the mid-range point, but they are only part of THE CHURCH.

Look at what these Gentiles say in Revelation 6 to point out they are not raptured at the mid-point, but are waiting:

When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

I suggest you study for yourself. Give the Holy Spirit within YOU the opportunity to teach you.

 

[Archmike]

So you follow your pastor's belief in a mid-trib. rapture. Well, Revelation 12 and 13, then Revelation 6 and 7 shows us a few things. Be careful not to make the mistake of thinking every chapter throughout the whole of Revelation is in chronological order. Some chapters end a sequence, and the whole story starts over again in the next chapter. This happens multiple times during John's vision. For instance, just because chapters 2 and 3 show the history of the whole church from beginning to end, pre-tribbers believe chapter 4 STARTS with the rapture when the Spirit says to John (only) "Come up here," and the rest of Revelation is afterward. Wishful thinking...

14 But the woman (Israel) was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time (first 3 1/2 years), from the presence of the serpent. 15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The "rest of her offspring" are Gentiles who were grafted into the Church (true Israel) Romans 11, and are alive at the time the GT starts and are martyred. BTW, it is unscriptural that any non-believing Gentile is saved during the GT as too many believe. No, when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, then the last 7 years begins for the Jews and the GT starts. All other Gentiles that have not accepted Christ to be saved will receive by God a "strong delusion" to accept the Antichrist instead.

The second half of the GT is when the Antichrist/Beast overcomes national Israel who has now converted through the ministry of the 144,000 Jews.

Revelation 13:And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them.

Again, what your pastor misses is that the Church is not Gentile. Yes, the last of the Gentiles are killed by the mid-range point, but they are only part of THE CHURCH.

Look at what these Gentiles say in Revelation 6 to point out they are not raptured at the mid-point, but are waiting:

When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

I suggest you study for yourself. Give the Holy Spirit within YOU the opportunity to teach you.

1st Cent Lady....substitute the Godly number "24" into Rev 12's time "riddle" as equaling "a time". ( ....a time, times, and 1/2 a time.... ), rather than a "1". Add whatever that total is to the date 1948, and you will go a long ways toward knowing the date when the flood is spewed outta the mouth of the dragon. After noticing that date, check to see how many years after the date of Christ's cruxificion ( 33AD ) that calculated date is.....

 

[1stcenturylady]

1st Cent Lady....substitute the Godly number "24" into Rev 12's time "riddle" as equaling "a time". ( ....a time, times, and 1/2 a time.... ), rather than a "1". Add whatever that total is to the date 1948, and you will go a long ways toward knowing the date when the flood is spewed outta the mouth of the dragon. After noticing that date, check to see how many years after the date of Christ's cruxificion ( 33AD ) that calculated date is.....

Do you honestly believe Revelation is to be esoteric?

Honestly, I enjoy a good mystery, so before I make a judgment, spell it out for me. Just remember, only time calculated before the changing of the calendar can be rightly judged to the day..., as in figuring out the timing in the seventy weeks prophecy of Daniel toward the first coming of Jesus. I don't think you can do that now for His second coming. So what are you getting at?

 

[1stcenturylady]

1st Cent Lady....substitute the Godly number "24" into Rev 12's time "riddle" as equaling "a time". ( ....a time, times, and 1/2 a time.... ), rather than a "1". Add whatever that total is to the date 1948, and you will go a long ways toward knowing the date when the flood is spewed outta the mouth of the dragon. After noticing that date, check to see how many years after the date of Christ's cruxificion ( 33AD ) that calculated date is.....

Remember, 33 AD is only the date of the crucifixion IF Jesus was born on 1 A.D. instead of up 3 to 6 B.C.

 

[Archmike]

Remember, 33 AD is only the date of the crucifixion IF Jesus was born on 1 A.D. instead of up 3 to 6 B.C.

Use the commonly referred-to date, say 33 AD. Lets not get hung up on semantics....

Now, 24 ( a time ) + 48 ( times ) +12 ( 1/2 a time ) = 84 years

Now, add 84 years + 1948 = 2032 AD ( if you add it to 1949, the year Israel became a nation, then make it 2033 AD .....EXACTLY 2000 years after the death & resurrection of Christ )

3032 AD is the date of the invasion of Israel by the forces of Gog and Magog allied with the forces of Islam, according to Ezekiel 38 / 39 and Joel 2.

 

[Archmike]

Use the commonly referred-to date, say 33 AD. Lets not get hung up on semantics....

Now, 24 ( a time ) + 48 ( times ) +12 ( 1/2 a time ) = 84 years

Now, add 84 years + 1948 = 2032 AD ( if you add it to 1949, the year Israel became a nation, then make it 2033 AD .....EXACTLY 2000 years after the death & resurrection of Christ )

3032 AD is the date of the invasion of Israel by the forces of Gog and Magog ( Russia ) allied with the forces of Islam, according to Ezekiel 38 / 39 and Joel 2.

 

[Riberra]

Yea, it's both, but I understand your confusion if you are trying to split up the two.

I am not trying to split anything.Can you show us the mention of going to Heaven after the resurrection ...1 Corinthians 15:51-55 ?

Hint:
The reason there is no mention of going to Heaven after the resurrection is because the resurrection of the believers will happen ONLY when Jesus will come down from Heaven to establish His Kingdom on the Earth....so we will be forever with Him in His Kingdom HERE on the Earth.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Use the commonly referred-to date, say 33 AD. Lets not get hung up on semantics....

Now, 24 ( a time ) + 48 ( times ) +12 ( 1/2 a time ) = 84 years

Now, add 84 years + 1948 = 2032 AD ( if you add it to 1949, the year Israel became a nation, then make it 2033 AD .....EXACTLY 2000 years after the death & resurrection of Christ )

3032 AD is the date of the invasion of Israel by the forces of Gog and Magog allied with the forces of Islam, according to Ezekiel 38 / 39 and Joel 2.

I'll have to disagree with 3032 AD. Try it another way. Go to Hosea 6:2 and regard each day as 1,000 years.

Come, and let us return to the Lord;
For He has torn, but He will heal us;
He has stricken, but He will bind us up.
2 After two days He will revive us;
On the third day He will raise us up,
That we may live in His sight.

For two thousand years the Jews are scattered and without a temple. The third 1000 years is the millennium.

Now what do you come up with?

 

[Archmike]

I'll have to disagree with 3032 AD. Try it another way. Go to Hosea 6:2 and regard each day as 1,000 years.

Come, and let us return to the Lord;
For He has torn, but He will heal us;
He has stricken, but He will bind us up.
2 After two days He will revive us;
On the third day He will raise us up,
That we may live in His sight.

For two thousand years the Jews are scattered and without a temple. The third 1000 years is the millennium.

Now what do you come up with?

4000 years = Adam to Christ
2000 years = death of Christ to start of end events
1000 years = Millennial Kingdom ( God rests )

a time ( 2000 ) + times ( 4000 ) + 1/2 time ( 1000 ) = 7000....

 

[1stcenturylady]

4000 years = Adam to Christ
2000 years = death of Christ to start of end events
1000 years = Millennial Kingdom ( God rests )

a time ( 2000 ) + times ( 4000 ) + 1/2 time ( 1000 ) = 7000....

deleted. I read it wrong.

So, what you are saying is 2032 is the beginning of the millennium. Yes, I've thought along those lines too, except it could be as early as 2027.

No man knows the day, nor the hour - He didn't mention year. LOL

 

[Archmike]

deleted. I read it wrong.

So, what you are saying is 2032 is the beginning of the millennium. Yes, I've thought along those lines too, except it could be as early as 2027.

No man knows the day, nor the hour - He didn't mention year. LOL

I saw your original post, and I was like, what ? lol

2032 is the year Russia attempts an invasion of Israel ( allied with nations of Islam ).....just as Rev 12 states. The invasion will fail ( by the hand of God ) however, this starts a chain of events that brings us the end time events. Therefore, the Invasion of Israel is the first a 7 events that leads to the GT, then Rapture.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I saw your original post, and I was like, what ? lol

2032 is the year Russia attempts an invasion of Israel ( allied with nations of Islam ).....just as Rev 12 states. The invasion will fail ( by the hand of God ) however, this starts a chain of events that brings us the end time events. Therefore, the Invasion of Israel is the first a 7 events that leads to the GT, then Rapture.

What verse in 12 are you referring to. And why Russia?

What nationality do you believe the Antichrist is?

 

[Blade]

You know.. for me the second I KNOW I am right and you are wrong. I missed it somewhere. Its not my truth nor yours its HIS. He is truth He is the way He is the life. Some of the best expamples I got from those much wiser then me. And these were people that prayed 4+ hours a day. I would ask her about so and so that DUH I new as a false preacher.. money you name it. She would say.. I listen to him I just dont believe everything he preaches. That was the worst she ever talked about anyone. About the word.. she would always say.. for me.. things like that. I asked about a dream .. a dream I was wide a wake and had. That was not from God. She never once said it was not. Again she said.. for ME when ever God shows me something it never has black in it or goes down. Do you see?

To many of us talk to others as if WE Know the truth and they just didnt study enough search enough.. things like that..right? lol..smile.

I am no one. I am no better for I know I sin more then most. But I have seen wonders from my Father of our lord Jesus Christ. And all I do is.. not what any man told me. I have been liken to some faith preachers lol. Yet.. not how I see it. It is they who are like me. I am 56 in March Xmas. I have the bible I had since I was 15 or so. And at 1st I never knew why (there is a point to all this really) I keep circles these verses. One day I asked that grandmother that prayed 4+ hours a day that seem to always be baking always had her hair up? She NEVER said why. You call her so many times a day for years and NEVER up set.. you asked about the weather and .. a were in the same town and she talks as if shes in HEAVEN.. I look out side and .. what is she looking at? Anyway.. she told me when I was young .. that was GOD talking to me is why I circled so many verses. Well as some of you know.. some just JUMP out.. you cant pass them by.. anyway.. point is this..

Jesus told us.. He was going back to make us home and if He goes He will come back and get us/take us/receive us unto Himself so where He is we will be. He told us.. WHERE He goes we know. How He goes we know. Some know about a Jewish wedding where he pays a price for his bride. Then goes back to his fathers house to make them a place to live. She stays behind yet does not know when he is coming back for her. About a year later he comes back mostly at night with some friends. Makes a loud noise so she knows he is coming. She was always watching always ready. He takes her back to his fathers house for about a week. yeah.. no lie.. yet.. its NOT the word of God.

So then Pauls 1st letter was to those that were told or thought Jesus came and they missed it. Paul tells them no you never missed it. Then tells them what will happen. Christ will come in the clouds the dead will the rise us will be caught up with them to what? Meet Christ in the air so we will what? Be with Him forever. Now..so far no where in the word can I find WHEN this HAS to take place. Nor can I find something has to take place 1st. What I found is this is not part of salvation. I read I must be ready..I must be watching. I see 10 virgins. All fell asleep. 5 ready 5 were not. He came they went in the others did not. We know that God will not force anyone to believe to say to think anything. We see AWESOME BEAUTFUL things happen from others PRAISE GOD YES all the time. We see such evil things also all the time. God still does not force any one.

So if I read He is coming back to get me and I do not believe that. Do you really think HE will force me to go? No.. if you are not watching you are not ready.. if some are walking in sin.. back slideing.. do not repent when they miss it. Do you think GOD will force them to go? Now remember its now how I see it or you that makes this true. WHAT IS WRITTEN? He said.. He is coming back to get us. Told us to watch and pray.. said.. pray you are counted worthy. Talked about thief in night. In Rev told them to repent or He will come back to them as a thief in the night. Now a thief comes in..takes something and leaves and you never see it coming. You were not ready.

Its NOT what I beleive or you that makes any of this true. For me.. He said He IS coming back to get me. He told us we were never promsied tomorrow. So I can perpare for that yet.. I live in the NOW as He is. So for me.. it will always be NOW when He comes. They lived as if JESUS was coming back NOW. And Church think.. if we were standing there and this man that WOW everything He did said ALWAYS happened. Told us.. looked at YOU and said.. I am going back to make YOU a home. Now I dont lie.. so if I go I will come back and get you so where I am you will be.

Now YOU tell me.. WHEN would you expect HIM to be coming back? So.. if to God 1 day is like a thousand years and a thousand years like one day.. its only been just over two days.. HE IS COMING! He said it. Me? I dont care what anyone says. I will read it listen to it.. make sure its written if not I toss it out and LOVE THEM respect them and I will search more. I always pray.. Father change me 1st.

Jesus is REAL! And what you believe is what He does. A simple town.. all this GOD could was lay hands on and teach. All His powe and authority and all as the word says He made.. yet He all He could do is lay hands and teach. Why? Doubt and unbelief. See the word says.. if we doubt let not that man/woman think they will get anything from God. Also says.. if we KNOW He hears us we KNOW we have the petitions we prayed for. See its not just ask and get. It HAS TO BE WRITTEN. Has to be in the word. And walking in love forgiveness.. grace mercy and always being the servant to all. Always taking the back seat and letting others drive so to speak. We never get seen. We get no glory. If one does not believe.. praise GOD.. I dont preach MY will what I want what I personally believe. Jesus told you things.. you read it.. you then if lost dont understand.. ASK HIM! Pray about it and STAY THERE! He WILL answer you wil show you WHERE its written. But If I go to HIM knowing what it REALLY true and expect Him to answer.. He wont. HE is true not me. What I personally believe is not HIS word.

So He is coming He said so. He said something is holding the lawless one back. Only when He/it is taken out of the way only then will the lawless one be known. So for ME again I read I have mroe power then the enemy for Christ is in me. I read the gate of hell cant even come agasint me us the Chruch. So for me I see that as long as I am still here .. satan will never ever be given more power then JESUS in me. For GOD would have to GIVE satan more power then Christ. And again for me I read I am in Jesus hands and Jesus hand are in the Fathers and then Jesus in the Father and the Father in Jesus and Jesus in ME. I for me read we are ONE! So I dont care what others say. Jesus is coming back for His own. When? This is not written. So I live as if He is coming NOW! I dont even know if I will be alive tomorrow so I live expect Him NOW! Its YOUR Choice not His. YOU have to believe. You have to have faith in what HE said.

Just like a preacher said.. what was his name.. Chan? Said picture your on an island. You see this book. You never heard of this book for before. Now read it. I add .. become like a child... now read it. A child simply believes. Dont believe anything I say. Like others I have 6 bibles right to my left and the internet and also so much more around me. Yet YOU search you seek you ASK HIM! He is REAL! But.. let HIM be right.. and if you do not believe.. He will not force you. Be it gifts or anything.. YOU have to believe. Just make sure its written. Love..peace joy.. the fruits of the spirit is how HE talks walks. His sweet sweet Holy spirit is what leads and guids us in to all truth..

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

So you follow your pastor's belief in a mid-trib. rapture. Well, Revelation 12 and 13, then Revelation 6 and 7 shows us a few things. Be careful not to make the mistake of thinking every chapter throughout the whole of Revelation is in chronological order. Some chapters end a sequence, and the whole story starts over again in the next chapter. This happens multiple times during John's vision. For instance, just because chapters 2 and 3 show the history of the whole church from beginning to end, pre-tribbers believe chapter 4 STARTS with the rapture when the Spirit says to John (only) "Come up here," and the rest of Revelation is afterward. Wishful thinking...and blind as a bat at when Revelation refers to times before the church even began such as the beginning of chapter 12!

14 But the woman (Israel) was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time (first 3 1/2 years), from the presence of the serpent. 15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The "rest of her offspring" are Gentiles who were grafted into the Church (true Israel) Romans 11, and are alive at the time the GT starts and are martyred. BTW, it is unscriptural that any non-believing Gentile is saved during the GT as too many believe. No, when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, then the last 7 years begins for the Jews and the GT starts. All other Gentiles that have not accepted Christ to be saved will receive by God a "strong delusion" to accept the Antichrist instead.

The second half of the GT is when the Antichrist/Beast overcomes national Israel who has now converted through the ministry of the 144,000 Jews.

Revelation 13:And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them.

Again, what your pastor misses is that the Church is not Gentile. Yes, the last of the Gentiles are killed by the mid-range point, but they are only part of THE CHURCH.

Look at what these Gentiles say in Revelation 6 to point out they are not raptured at the mid-point, but are waiting:

When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

I suggest you study for yourself. Give the Holy Spirit within YOU the opportunity to teach you.

You suggest that I study for myself....even though I clearly stated I studied to come to my conclusion along with my pastors take on the matter.

I find your argument to be interesting but I disagree with it tbh, ima present mine in a minute. My take also isn't based on the order of revelations as well and it's not based off revelations alone, but yeah i'll present in a min.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

So you follow your pastor's belief in a mid-trib. rapture. Well, Revelation 12 and 13, then Revelation 6 and 7 shows us a few things. Be careful not to make the mistake of thinking every chapter throughout the whole of Revelation is in chronological order. Some chapters end a sequence, and the whole story starts over again in the next chapter. This happens multiple times during John's vision. For instance, just because chapters 2 and 3 show the history of the whole church from beginning to end, pre-tribbers believe chapter 4 STARTS with the rapture when the Spirit says to John (only) "Come up here," and the rest of Revelation is afterward. Wishful thinking...and blind as a bat at when Revelation refers to times before the church even began such as the beginning of chapter 12!

14 But the woman (Israel) was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time (first 3 1/2 years), from the presence of the serpent. 15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The "rest of her offspring" are Gentiles who were grafted into the Church (true Israel) Romans 11, and are alive at the time the GT starts and are martyred. BTW, it is unscriptural that any non-believing Gentile is saved during the GT as too many believe. No, when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, then the last 7 years begins for the Jews and the GT starts. All other Gentiles that have not accepted Christ to be saved will receive by God a "strong delusion" to accept the Antichrist instead.

The second half of the GT is when the Antichrist/Beast overcomes national Israel who has now converted through the ministry of the 144,000 Jews.

Revelation 13:And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them.

Again, what your pastor misses is that the Church is not Gentile. Yes, the last of the Gentiles are killed by the mid-range point, but they are only part of THE CHURCH.

Look at what these Gentiles say in Revelation 6 to point out they are not raptured at the mid-point, but are waiting:

When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

I suggest you study for yourself. Give the Holy Spirit within YOU the opportunity to teach you.

ONe thing I agree with you on straight up


1. I agree with you that gentiles will not be saved during the GT, my pastor teaches this and I studied myself to see if I agree and yes the bible only indicates that Jews have a way to be saved during the GT. I agree too many teach that gentiles also have a chance but they don't.


Support for rapture not taking place until after the beast is set up.


Ok we see here the beast comes 3 1/2 years

Daniel 9:26-27King James Version (KJV)
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

midst= 3 1/2 threescore and two=7 years

2nd Thessalonians 2:2-4
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.



Revelation 13:7King James Version (KJV)
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.



Also I read that portion you posted from revelations 6 and these aren't individuals still on Earth... they were killed already. I"m not sure what is your point behind revelations 6

 

[1stcenturylady]

ONe thing I agree with you on straight up


1. I agree with you that gentiles will not be saved during the GT, my pastor teaches this and I studied myself to see if I agree and yes the bible only indicates that Jews have a way to be saved during the GT. I agree too many teach that gentiles also have a chance but they don't.


Support for rapture not taking place until after the beast is set up.


Ok we see here the beast comes 3 1/2 years

Daniel 9:26-27King James Version (KJV)
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

midst= 3 1/2 threescore and two=7 years

2nd Thessalonians 2:2-4
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.



Revelation 13:7King James Version (KJV)
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.



Also I read that portion you posted from revelations 6 and these aren't individuals still on Earth... they were killed already. I"m not sure what is your point behind revelations 6

Referring to your last paragraph. "they were killed already." Do you believe that those killed in Revelation 6 is before the events of Revelation 7, or even 12 and 13?

Also, at the beginning, are you saying your pastor says the Antichrist doesn't show up until the beginning of the last 3 1/2 years?

 

[1stcenturylady]

Referring to your last paragraph. "they were killed already." Do you believe that those killed in Revelation 6 is before the events of Revelation 7, or even 12 and 13?

Also, at the beginning, are you saying your pastor says the Antichrist doesn't show up until the beginning of the last 3 1/2 years? There are 7 altogether.