Why hasn't Christ returned yet?

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stephen583 said in post 159:

I think it's also relevant to ask exactly how these two witnesses are expected to remain in Israel for the entire one thousand two hundred and sixty days ?

Note that no one will be able to come against them during that time (Revelation 11:5,3).

stephen583 said in post 159:

The standard B-2 visa only permits a visitor to stay in Israel for 90 days. This visa can be extended, but only under certain circumstances. An application for the right of return (Aliya) would involve a conversion to Judaism, which Jesus declared "desolate", (Matthew 23:38, Luke 13:35). So it's totally improbable either of these two witnesses would convert.

An extension can also be granted by the Israeli Foreign mission to religious ministers carrying out official duties related to their congregation. This exemption requires a letter of endorsement from an ecumenical office recognized by Israel.

In the Revelation, the two witnesses are described as the "two olive trees and lampstands" who stand before God, (Revelation 11:4). So it's pretty apparent they "stand alone", and are not sent there on the authority of any other church. In point of fact, no other "lampstands" (churches) are mentioned at this point in the Revelation. So I don't see them getting any letter of endorsement either.

Indeed, and they will not need any endorsement from anyone, but God himself (Revelation 11:3-13).

But note that the current state of Israel may not even be in existence by the time of the 2 witnesses. For the time of the 2 witnesses will be the same time as the future, literal 3.5 years (Revelation 11:2b-3,6) of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 12:6,14), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. That is why the Antichrist's reign will legally end (Revelation 11:15) right after the time of the 2 witnesses on the earth will end (Revelation 11:12-15).

And the Antichrist may not even first appear on the world stage until after the horrible, future, tribulation-starting war of Revelation 6:4-8 and Daniel 11:15-17 has resulted in the total defeat and occupation of Israel, and Egypt, and the death of 1/4 of the world. It could be precisely this war which will help open the way for the Antichrist to arise on the world stage as a great man of peace and antitypically fulfill the "vile" person of Daniel 11:21-45.

One way this war could happen is the U.S. could undertake a massive buildup of the Iraqi Army, initially to bring about the total defeat of the Islamic State militant group (also known as ISIS, or ISIL, or Daesh) in Iraq, and eventually so that the Iraqi Army can serve as a proxy army, for the U.S. and Israel, for an all-out ground invasion of Iran, in order to end Iran's nuclear weapons program and extremist regime. As part of the buildup of the Iraqi Army, the U.S. could reinstall much of the former Iraqi Baathist military hierarchy (i.e. that which existed under Baathist Saddam Hussein), to run the present Iraqi Army more efficiently and ruthlessly.

And if the current, Shiite-dominated government of Iraq balks at any return of a Baathist-dominated military (which cruelly suppressed the Iraqi Shiites under Saddam Hussein's rule), or balks at any invasion of fellow-Shiite Iran, this could lead the CIA, MI6, and the Mossad to bring about a Baathist coup d'etat in Iraq. For they could see a well-run, Baathist Iraqi Army and government as the only way to defeat Islamic State, and the only way to eventually invade and defeat Iran, which invasion the Iraqi Baathists could agree to perform. For they see meddling, non-Arab Iran as a great enemy of Arab autonomy.

Indeed, the current military brains of the Islamic State are former Iraqi Baathist generals who can't stand that the Iraqi government has come completely under the thumb of Iran. They see (Sunni Arab) Islamic State as the only current viable bulwark against the Iranians and the Shiite Arabs taking control of all of Iraq and Syria. These generals could "defect" from serving Islamic State to serving a non-sectarian Iraqi Army drawn mainly (not exclusively) from Sunni Arab and Kurdish militias in western and northern Iraq, which with secret Western assistance could completely overthrow the current Iraqi government in Baghdad, which is very weak and corrupt.

Once the Iraqi Baathists take back control of the Iraqi government and military, they could completely defeat ISIS and all Iranian-supported Shiite militias in Iraq. Then, in order to help get the Iraqi masses and the world behind the idea of a subsequent, all-out Iraqi invasion of Iran, "false flag" operations could be managed by the CIA, MI6, and the Mossad by which it will be made to seem that (non-Arab, Persian) Iran is attacking the Iraqi Sunni Arabs and their little children terroristically with "dirty bombs" made from Iranian-enriched uranium, so that the Iraqi Arab masses will become enraged and begin to call for all-out retaliation against (what they could call) "the vile Persians". And the world could see an Iraqi invasion of Iran as being completely justified by self-defense.

But then, right when Iraq is all ready to invade Iran, the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel (who by that time could be led by a great miracle-working false "Messiah": cf. Matthew 24:24) could completely destroy the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque (the 3rd-holiest sites in Islam) on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, in order to clear the site for the building of a 3rd Jewish temple (Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36; 2 Thessalonians 2:4). This could so enrage Muslims worldwide, including the (Muslim) Iraqi Army, that the Iraqi Baathist Generals could see it as a perfect excuse to abandon the plan to invade huge Iran, and instead (pretending that they are doing so in the name of Islam) turn and send their vast army against the little territory of Israel, completely defeating and occupying it (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17, the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath").

But this wouldn't be the ultimate reason for the Baathist attack, which could continue on south to also defeat and occupy Egypt (Daniel 11:15). For Egypt is ruled by the U.S.-supported Egyptian Army, which the Baathists could see as being a puppet of the U.S., just as they could see Israel as being a 51st state of the U.S. Baathism's ultimate aim is to unite all Arab lands from Oman to Morocco into one massive, powerful United Arab States free of all foreign hegemony.

The all-out Iraqi attack on Israel could be joined by the entire (Baathist) Syrian Army (with all of its missiles, many still secretly tipped with nerve agents), as well as by all of Iran's long-range missiles and all of Hezbollah's and Hamas' missiles and guerrillas. Israel could find itself suddenly attacked from 3 directions at the same time, with tens of thousands of missiles raining down on its cities and military bases, and tens of thousands of Iraqi tanks (meant to defeat and occupy huge Iran) pouring across its borders. As Israel starts to see its little sliver of land completely overrun, and sees that its total defeat and occupation is imminent and assured, in retaliation it could drop nuclear bombs on Baghdad, Damascus (Isaiah 17:1), Tehran, and other major cities of Iraq, Syria, and Iran.

There could be so many nuclear explosions sending so much radioactive dust and ash so high into the atmosphere that it could be blown eastward and fall on hugely-populated South Asia, ruining so many crop fields and immune systems there with radiation that 1/4 of the world's population could end up dying from the war and its aftermath of famines and epidemics. This could fulfill the horrible war which will begin the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which war will, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, end up killing 1/4 of the world (Revelation 6:4-8). The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons. This war could be blamed not only on the religious fundamentalism of Islam and Judaism, but also on religious fundamentalism in general, and so could lead to a worldwide crusade against all forms of religious fundamentalism, including Christian fundamentalism, i.e. the (correct) idea that the Bible is wholly true (2 Timothy 3:16, Matthew 4:4) and that all other religions are cursed (Galatians 1:8-9, John 14:6, John 3:36, Acts 4:12).

After an Iraqi Baathist General who could lead the defeat and occupation of Israel and Egypt mysteriously disappears from the scene (Daniel 11:19), the Antichrist, who could be an Arab, could arise peacefully out of Lebanon (from the modern city of Tyre: Ezekiel 28:2; cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:4), and he could take up the mantle of Baathism and vow to (in his words) "complete the great work of Arab liberation and unification". The first thing that the Antichrist could do once he is given control (Daniel 11:21) of a Baathist federation of Iraq, Syria, Egypt, and a "United Palestine" (i.e. a defeated and occupied Israel), is to perform a small and localized attack against an army of ultra-Orthodox Jews holed up in the walled Old City of Jerusalem and led by an ultra-Orthodox Jewish false "Messiah" (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:22).

These ultra-Orthodox Jews could have managed to hold off the first Baathist attack even as it overran the rest of Israel, because the walled Old City of Jerusalem is considered holy to the Muslims, and so it is not to be bombarded or destroyed. The Antichrist could manage in some way to take the Old City without doing it much harm (such as by incapacitating its Jewish defenders with huge clouds of tear gas while tens of thousands of Arab soldiers wearing gas masks take control of the city by climbing over its walls on thousands of tall ladders).

But then, instead of imprisoning or executing all the ultra-Orthodox Jews and their false Messiah, the Antichrist will do an amazing thing. He will "cut" a peace treaty with them and their false Messiah (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:23), permitting them to keep a 3rd Jewish temple (Revelation 11:1) which they will have built on the Temple Mount in the Old City of Jerusalem, and to keep control of the Old City, for at least 7 more years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims so that the Muslims can rebuild the Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. By this peace treaty, the Antichrist could present himself to the world as (in his words): "A reasonable man, a man of peace. I am no Hitler. I do not desire a second Holocaust. I am willing to give the religious Jews in the Old City seven years to show that they are willing to live peacefully with others, that they are different than the Zionist Jews who have just destroyed the world with their nuclear weapons".

And if the Antichrist gets flak from his fellow Baathists for letting the ultra-Orthodox Jews keep the Old City of Jerusalem, he could explain to them privately that (in his words) "It's all a temporary ruse, meant to keep world opinion off guard while we consolidate our position". The Baathists could consolidate their position by becoming so well dug-in, and so well-equipped and advised militarily by the Russians (in the name of "Arab self-determination"), that a U.S. counter-attack to "restore" (i.e. to take back) Israel and Egypt could fail, and leave the Baathists in control, and in a position to extend their power over all the rest of the Arab nations. For if the Baathists defeat and occupy Israel, they will be hailed by the Arab masses across the Arab world as magnificent heroes, so that the Baathists could have no problem persuading the Arab masses to support them. And the Baathists could justify their defeat of the Egyptian military regime, and then their subsequent defeat of other regimes such as in Jordan, by railing against them as being (what they could call):

"These vile cronies of the Americans. These cronies pretended to be for the Arab people while in fact they were taking American bribes in the billions, completely selling out our Palestinian brothers to the endless cruelties of the Zionist occupation, and keeping you, the great majority of the Arab people, in poverty. These cronies, like the Zionists themselves, were the American bulwarks against our glorious Arab unification and return to world power. Join now with us, the Baathists, that we might bring about the long-awaited Arab Renaissance, the long-awaited Arab Resurrection [the Arab word 'Baath' can mean 'Renaissance' and 'Resurrection'], that we Arabs might all rise up together and unite, from Oman to Morocco, into one great United Arab States, one great Arab Empire, shaking off completely all the shackles of the West, placed upon us so long ago, and return to our former glory as we had during the Middle Ages, when we were free and far superior to the West".

The Baathists could also rail against the kings and sheikhs of the Arab Gulf States for (in their words) "Hoarding the huge oil wealth given by Allah to all the Arabs, and keeping the Arab masses in poverty and subjugation to Western interests". The Baathists are socialist, and so could call for the distribution of the Arab oil wealth to the Arab masses (Daniel 11:24). In this way, and by their defeat and occupation of Israel, the Baathists could easily turn the masses to their side in every Arab nation.

During the first few years of the 7-year peace treaty referred to earlier, the Antichrist could employ Baathism as the means by which he will gradually and peacefully put together a United Arab States, or Arab Union, stretching from Oman to Morocco. Once he has accomplished this, he could then begin to downplay Baathism and start speaking of "World peace and the unity of mankind". He could convince an oil-thirsty European Union to let the oil-rich Arab Union join it, thereby forming a massive Mediterranean Union, which he could manage to peacefully gain control of and use as his base of power to eventually exert his hegemony over the entire earth (Revelation 13:7b).

Then, only some 3.5 years after making the 7-year peace treaty referred to earlier, the Antichrist will break it, attack the 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices offered in front of it, and sit (at least one time) in the temple and proclaim himself God (Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:4). He will then rule the whole earth by the power of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon: Revelation 12:9) for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:4-18, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7, Revelation 12:14), or 1,260 literal days (Revelation 12:6).

The return of Jesus Christ from heaven (Matthew 24:30, Revelation 19:11-21; 1 Thessalonians 4:16) may not occur immediately after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign, but could occur 75 days later, on the 1,335th day after the Antichrist and his followers set up the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Daniel 12:11-12, Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15). The 75 days could be taken up by the vials of God's wrath which will be poured out on the Antichrist's worshippers (Revelation 16).

When Jesus returns, he will completely defeat the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 19:20; 2 Thessalonians 2:8-9), and he will have Satan bound in the bottomless pit (Revelation 20:1-3). Then the returned Jesus and the physically resurrected church (including those in the church who had been beheaded by the Antichrist) will reign physically on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:8-21).
 
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Hieronymus

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Prophecies regarding the return of Christ remain unfulfilled;
Up until now, yes.
indeed, some of them are downright confusing.
I agree there...
But the signs of the times will announce it.
It's nearly 2000 years later and obviously we've developed a lot of technology which makes it seem like man, not God, is in control.
So it may seem, but i don't think so.
But,the last "update" of God was some 2000 years ago, which is a long time.
We've discovered that the world is a lot bigger than we thought in the 1st century, so any sort of universal coming (the sort prophesied in Scripture) must be of absolutely immense magnitude (like something on par with Noah's Flood).
Indeed.
Although it appears to be mostly about the area around Jerusalem.
There Christ will have his Kingdom (for a 1000 years) but He will apparently rule the world as a whole.
Thoughts?
Things are not gonna get any better on earth before Christ's return and his Wrath.
 
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JohnRabbit

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This reminds me of two things.

One. Of all the people on Earth who should have seen the coming of the Messiah, the Pharisees are them. They studied, discussed, pored over and debated all the Law and the Prophets constantly. They missed, not just a little, but ridiculously. (In modern metaphor, they didn't just not win the race, they couldn't get the engine to fire over.)

Of course, 'we' can do better.

Two. I cannot begin - and don't wanna - to count and list all the men, women, children and other who have set a date for the Return. There have been - ah - several. So far, not one has been right. "...it's fully laid out in scripture!" said ALL of them. They've all been wrong. Jesus Christ has not returned. Nor has He sent a message explaining the delay. No updates. Not even a postcard.

Of course, 'we' can do better.

***********************
There are two (again with the two thing) things to avoid about the Coming of Jesus and the end of the age.

One is get so wrapped around the axle about it one cannot think of anything else or serve in any other capacity. (See any of those?)

Two is to pretend it isn't coming at all and - well - never mind.
Good post!
 
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stephen583

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I seriously doubt the Dome of the Rock Mosque is going to be destroyed, or that a Jewish temple is going to be rebuilt in it's place, and Levitical temple worship is going to be restored, or that a false Messiah will appear in Jerusalem. These predictions appear to me to be an attempt to Judaize Bible prophecy.

Even the Old Testament End Time prophecies, such as those found in the book of Daniel, were I believe made in the context of Christianity, not Judaism.

The Revelation says, when Christ returns there will be no physical temple in Jerusalem, for the Lord God and the Lamb are the temple of it, (Revelation 21:22).

What happened to your rebuilt temple ? How does it disappear ? (Hint) It never existed.
 
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stephen583 said in post 165:

I seriously doubt the Dome of the Rock Mosque is going to be destroyed, or that a Jewish temple is going to be rebuilt in it's place, and Levitical temple worship is going to be restored, or that a false Messiah will appear in Jerusalem.

Note that Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36, and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 require that there will be a 3rd Jewish temple in the earthly Jerusalem during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This 3rd temple will coexist with the church like the 2nd temple did (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17), and like the temple building in heaven does (Revelation 11:19). The 3rd temple could be built on Jerusalem's Temple Mount by the ultra-Orthodox Jews, after they (or great earthquakes) clear the site by destroying the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque. Shortly after they build the temple, the Antichrist could attack and defeat them, and a false Messiah leading them (Daniel 11:22).

Then the Antichrist could "cut" a peace treaty with them and their false "Messiah" (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:23a), permitting them to keep the temple, and to continue to (mistakenly) perform the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices in front of it, for at least 7 years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims, so that the Muslims can rebuild the Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. The ultra-Orthodox Jews could grudgingly agree to this, if the only other option is for them to lose the temple entirely. They could then build a high wall between the temple and the mosque, in order to keep the temple from being "defiled".

But then, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty, the Antichrist will break the treaty, attack the temple, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, place the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Daniel 9:27b, Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15), and then sit himself (at least one time) in the temple and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). Thus could begin the Antichrist's literal, 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

At the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the Antichrist (Daniel 11:45) and the world's armies will pillage Jerusalem right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21). And at the 2nd coming, there will be tremendous earth changes in the vicinity of Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:4-5). These events could result in all of Jerusalem's structures, including the 3rd temple and the Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall), being broken down so that not one stone will be left on another (Luke 19:44, Matthew 24:2). Then the returned Jesus (Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11-12) will rebuild Jerusalem and make it the capital of the world (Zechariah 14:8-19, Micah 4:1-4). He will also build a 4th temple there (Zechariah 14:20-21, Zechariah 6:12-13). It will serve a similar function for the church during the future millennium (of Revelation 20:4-6) as the 2nd temple served for the church in the 1st century AD (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17), and as the temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19) serves for those in heaven (Revelation 7:15).

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One reason that the 3rd Jewish temple of Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36, and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 hasn't been built yet is the Israeli government has been very careful to protect the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque ever since Israel took military control of the Temple Mount back in 1967. For the Israeli government knows that if the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel were to destroy these buildings (the 3rd-holiest sites in Islam) in order to clear the Temple Mount for a 3rd Jewish temple, this could mean the end of the current state of Israel. For enraged Muslim armies and militias could attack Israel en masse in an all-out jihad and defeat it completely.

While the ultra-Orthodox Jews are no doubt aware of this danger, they believe that the 3rd temple must nonetheless be built exactly where the prior temples stood: right over the Rock of Sacrifice (the Rock of the Dome of the Rock) on which Abraham almost sacrificed Isaac. And the ultra-Orthodox Jews could be brought to the point where they will even desire to see the end of the current, secular state of Israel, believing that only in its demise will God make it possible for them to establish a new, perfectly ultra-Orthodox, theocratic city-state of (what they could call ) "the True Israel". They could establish this within the walled Old City of Jerusalem (which contains the Temple Mount), and build on the Temple Mount a 3rd Jewish temple before which they can restart the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, and perfectly keep every jot and tittle of the Mosaic law, and banish every non-kosher person and thing from ever entering within Old Jerusalem's "Holy walls".

(This could point to another reason that the current, secular government of Israel doesn't want to let the ultra-Orthodox Jews build a 3rd temple: out of fear that the secular authority of the Israeli government could subsequently get undermined. For once temple practices resumed and a priesthood came into power, a creep toward theocracy could ensue in Israel, where priests and rabbis would become powerful enough to replace the secular leaders in Israel. So the secular leaders could want to simply place a hold on any drift in that direction by forbidding the building of a 3rd temple.)

Something which could help to bring the ultra-Orthodox Jews to the point of desiring to see the end of the current, secular state of Israel would be them getting squeezed out of their settlements in Samaria and Judaea (also called the West Bank), and in eastern Jerusalem, as part of a peace deal handing these areas over to a Palestinian state. For the ultra-Orthodox Jews (rightly) see Samaria, Judaea, and Jerusalem as the historically most important and holy parts of the land promised by God to Israel since the time of Abraham (Exodus 32:13). So when they start to get squeezed out of these areas, in a rage they could suddenly mass in their tens of thousands, armed with machine guns (which they are allowed to have for self-defense against the Palestinians). And led by 3 huge bulldozers, they could march as a great army to the Old City of Jerusalem, and go up onto the Temple Mount and completely destroy the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque.

(A fear of the ultra-Orthodox Jews resorting to violence could be one of the reasons that the current Israeli government refuses to hinder Jewish settlement activity in Samaria, Judaea, and eastern Jerusalem. It could also be one of the reasons that the U.S. government has been convinced by Israel to back off from requiring any such hindrance. But if down the road, pressure from the Arab masses and governments (not to mention non-Arab governments, such as the French or E.U. governments) for a Palestinian state becomes so extreme that it begins to threaten to overthrow U.S. hegemony over the Arab world, the U.S. could decide to force Israel to surrender all the Jewish settlements to a Palestinian state. Also, there could be a gradual change within Israel itself, until a majority of Israelis, including civilians, army leaders, judges, etc., decide that it is time to remove the current, hard-line Israeli government, and replace it with a more liberal government which will be willing to implement a 2-state solution with the Palestinians.)

Besides the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel getting squeezed out of their settlements at some point in our future, something else which could help to tip the scales toward them becoming violent would be the rising up of a miracle-working, ultra-Orthodox Jewish false "Messiah" (cf. Matthew 24:24), who could tell the ultra-Orthodox Jews something like:

"God says that now is the time for us to take back religious control of the Holy Temple Mount, and rid it of all the detestable shrines which the Muslims have placed upon it. We are to sanctify it in the name of our God, so that we might rebuild His Holy Temple there. Listen, my brethren, fear not the Muslims' reaction when we retake religious control of the Holy Temple Mount. For God Himself is with us. He will protect us perfectly. Have I not shown you His mighty Power working through Me? Fear not any men, but fear only our Mighty God, who now commands us to rebuild His Holy Temple at the place which He determined from the time of our Father Abraham. Our God gave us back the Holy Temple Mount way back in 1967 C.E. But what have we done with it over all the time since then? Nothing! How can this be? How can we have allowed some merely-secular, so-called 'Israeli' government invented by sinful men to keep us, God's holy people, from even setting foot back on the Temple Mount, and to let it remain under the religious control of the vile Muslims? Let us all rise up now, my brethren! Let us all rise up, in the name of our God, and let us do mighty exploits to the Glory of His Holy Name!"

With such rhetoric, accompanied by his working of amazing miracles (cf. Matthew 24:24), a false ultra-Orthodox Jewish "Messiah" in Israel could whip up the ultra-Orthodox Jews there into a religious frenzy, so that they will all with great zeal, and without any fear, march in their tens of thousands to the Temple Mount, and take total control of it, and then rejoice there and dance, and sing holy hymns to God "for His great and mighty Victory".

Something else which could help to tip the scales toward the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel becoming violent is the occurrence of a series of great earthquakes in Jerusalem which will severely damage the Dome of the Rock and Al Aqsa Mosque, to the point where they will stop being used. For the ultra-Orthodox Jews could see this as (in their words) "Clearly a portent from God that he will no longer allow Muslims to trample His Holy Mountain. We must now reassert Jewish religious control over it and rebuild His Holy Temple there".

Something else which could help to tip the scales toward the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel becoming violent is their finding out the location of the Ark of the Covenant, which could be buried under an ancient ruined fort in the desert east of Jerusalem. The Copper Scroll could contain the clues as to where the Ark is buried in the fort (e.g. "under the third step"). The Ark could have been located there already with ground-penetrating radar by some non-religious treasure hunters, but the Israeli government could be holding up a digging permit to retrieve the Ark, because the government is afraid that the ultra-Orthodox Jews could see a retrieval of the Ark as (in their words) "An unmistakable sign from God that now is the time for us to rebuild His Holy Temple". So the Israeli government has a motive to keep the location of the buried Ark top secret.

Fearing that some ultra-Orthodox Jews could nonetheless somehow discover the top secret location of the buried Ark, and go there in the dead of night and dig it up without a permit from, or any notification to, the Israeli government, the government could have placed armed guards and surveillance cameras to watch over the buried Ark's location day and night.

But if the buried Ark's location is found out by some ultra-Orthodox Jews, they could round up tens of thousands of their fellows, armed with machine guns, and they could suddenly swarm the location, overwhelm any armed guards there, and hold off any subsequently-arrived IDF troops long enough to get the Ark out of the ground. Once it is out and the IDF troops actually see it, it is unlikely that they are going to try to stop the ultra-Orthodox Jews from parading it to the Temple Mount, they will be in such awe.

Also, once the ultra-Orthodox Jews make it to the Temple Mount and begin completely destroying the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque, it is unlikely that the IDF troops are going to open fire, whether with lead bullets or rubber bullets, on their fellow Jews, slaughtering or injuring hundreds or thousands of them. Also, increasing numbers of IDF officers are very religious, so that they could order their troops to stand down. And if some non-religious officers convince their troops to employ tear gas in an attempt to simply disperse the ultra-Orthodox Jews without harming them, this could be thwarted by the ultra-Orthodox Jews having brought along gas masks (which, ironically, could have been issued to them by the Israeli government itself, back when there was a fear that Saddam Hussein would send Scud missiles into Israel with chemical-weapons payloads).

So the Israeli government could be unable to prevent the complete destruction of the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque at the hands of the ultra-Orthodox Jews. And so the Israeli government could be unable to prevent the subsequent, retaliatory destruction of the state of Israel at the hands of enraged Muslim armies and militias.

stephen583 said in post 165:

The Revelation says, when Christ returns there will be no physical temple in Jerusalem, for the Lord God and the Lamb are the temple of it, (Revelation 21:22).

Note that Revelation 21:22 refers to the time of the new earth (Revelation 21:1), which won't begin until some 1,000 years after Christ returns (Revelation 19:7 to 21:1).
 
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stephen583

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These events could result in all of Jerusalem's structures, including the 3rd temple and the Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall), being broken down so that not one stone will be left on another (Luke 19:44, Matthew 24:2).


That's about the only statement in your post I agree with. The Western Wall (Wailing Wall) will be destroyed sometime during the Tribulation Period. Ultra Orthodox Jews use the continued existence of the remaining Western Containment Wall, (the Wailing Wall) as evidence Jesus was a "false prophet" and therefore could not have been the Messiah, (as you mention, he foretold not one stone of the old temple would be left standing). Matthew 24:2 and Mark 13:2 refers specifically to the temple building.

However, Bible scholars are divided about your other reference, (Luke 19:44) which some claim more appropriately refers to the fate of the people of Israel and the Jewish diaspora that occurred as a result of the revolt against the Romans in 70 AD.

The rest of the post appears to be a "mishmash" of Christian and Jewish eschatology that totally defies comprehension. If it's helpful, in Christian theology it is a fundamental principle, there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile, (Galatians 3:28, Romans 10:12), and there are no physical temple buildings either, (1 Corinthians 3:16, 6:19). These precepts are not small points, they are fundamental to Christian theology in general.

You obviously have difficulty interpreting Scripture in this context, and discerning the difference between the term "temple" as it refers to a physical building, or structure, (i.e a Mosaic temple), and where it's used in a "spiritual" sense, particularly where Daniel 9:27 and Daniel 11:31 are concerned.
 
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stephen583

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Frankly, I'm baffled why people think God would rebuild a Jewish temple and reinstitute Mosaic animal sacrifice, which would essentially be a renunciation of the shedding of Christ's blood and his sacrifice being sufficient to cover all sin. Especially since Jesus cursed the Jewish temple and said it was left unto you desolate, (Luke 13:35, Matthew 23:38).

When did God become a schizophrenic ?
 
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After the last visit I wouldn't blame him for not returning in a hurry. He had one star accomodation and no car and even had to make his own wine. He then he had to feed thousands of freeloaders.

If he comes back the crooked politician thing is worse and he might have to clean up the mess we are making of the world.

I would procrastinate as long as possible too.
 
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Achilles6129

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The temple would be rebuilt because Paul says it has to exist in 2 Thess. 2:

" 4 who opposes and exalts himself above [e]every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God." 2 Thess. 2:4 (NASB)
 
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stephen583

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The temple would be rebuilt because Paul says it has to exist in 2 Thess. 2:

Once again.. Your interpretation of the word "temple" referring to an actual physical temple building is inconsistent with Christian theology. "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and the Spirit of God dwelleth in you ?" (1 Corinthians 3:16, KJV). Both 2 Thessalonians and 1 Corinthians were written by the same author, The Apostle Paul. So in 1 Corinthians you have the definition of what the word "temple" refers to, and it isn't talking about some "reconstructed" Jewish temple building in Jerusalem.

What you are trying to do is Judiaze the New Testament.
 
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Achilles6129

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Once again.. Your interpretation of the word "temple" referring to an actual physical temple building is inconsistent with Christian theology. "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and the Spirit of God dwelleth in you ?" (1 Corinthians 3:16, KJV). Both 2 Thessalonians and 1 Corinthians were written by the same author, The Apostle Paul. So in 1 Corinthians you have the definition of what the word "temple" refers to, and it isn't talking about some "reconstructed" Jewish temple building in Jerusalem.

What you are trying to do is Judiaze the New Testament.
I see. So how does the amtichrist sit down in an actual human being?
 
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stephen583 said in post 167:

If it's helpful, in Christian theology it is a fundamental principle, there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile, (Galatians 3:28, Romans 10:12) . . .

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Note that here, Paul can't possibly mean that there are no believers who are Jews or Gentiles in any sense, because elsewhere he shows, for example, that believers remain either genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b). Similarly, Galatians 3:28 doesn't mean that there are no believers who are males or females, for clearly we are still males or females with regard to our genitals, and with regard to other matters (1 Timothy 2:11-12; 1 Corinthians 14:34-37; 1 Corinthians 11:4-16; 1 Peter 3:7a).

So Galatians 3:28 can only mean that there is no distinction between believing Jews and Gentiles, or between believing males and females, with regard to them being "one in Christ" (Galatians 3:28b), in the sense of them being one body in Christ (Ephesians 4:4-6), without distinction with regard to their salvation (Romans 10:12; 1 Corinthians 12:13; 1 Peter 3:7b).

stephen583 said in post 167:

. . . and there are no physical temple buildings either, (1 Corinthians 3:16, 6:19).

Note that while every Christian's individual human body is indeed a temple, and there is also the temple of Jesus' individual human body (John 2:21), such human bodies aren't the only temples of God. For they coexist with the figurative temple building of the church as a whole (Ephesians 2:21), and with the literal temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19). And if such human-body temples can currently coexist with these other temples of God, they will be able to coexist with the future, 3rd-earthly-literal temple building which Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36, and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 show will exist in Jerusalem during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This 3rd temple building will be accepted by God as a valid temple, just as the 2nd temple building was accepted by God as a valid temple, even at the time of Jesus' 1st coming (Matthew 23:21), and even at the time of the early church (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17).

For the ultra-Orthodox Jews will build the 3rd temple, and they will offer animal sacrifices in front of it, under the auspices of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, which remains holy before God (Romans 7:12). That is why God still keeps an ark of the Old Covenant Mosaic law in his temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19), and why it was possible for the apostle Paul one time to involve himself with the 2nd temple's Old Covenant Mosaic law practices without him committing sin (Acts 21:20-26; 1 Corinthians 9:20). This isn't to say that the Jesus-denying motives of the ultra-Orthodox Jews will be holy before God, but that the Old-Covenant-Mosaic-law 3rd temple in itself and its animal sacrifices in themselves will be holy before God, because the Old Covenant Mosaic law in itself remains holy before God (Romans 7:12), even though its letter is no longer meant to be practiced by people (Romans 7:6), because the New Covenant has been inaugurated by Jesus and his once-for-all-time sacrifice on the Cross for our sins (Hebrews 10:1-23, Matthew 26:28).

stephen583 said in post 167:

You obviously have difficulty interpreting Scripture in this context, and discerning the difference between the term "temple" as it refers to a physical building, or structure, (i.e a Mosaic temple), and where it's used in a "spiritual" sense, particularly where Daniel 9:27 and Daniel 11:31 are concerned.

Regarding Daniel 9:27, when it says "for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate", this is the same as "the abomination that maketh desolate" in Daniel 11:31, when the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will make a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem spiritually desolate by placing a (possibly android) image of himself (Revelation 13:15) in the holy place of the temple (Matthew 24:15) to be worshipped, and by sitting himself (at least one time) in the temple and proclaiming himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36).

In Daniel 9:27, the original Hebrew word (kanaph: H3671) translated as "overspreading" can mean a wing (cf. 1 Kings 6:24), but it doesn't have to mean this every time that it is used. For it can also mean "the uttermost part" (cf. Isaiah 24:16). The "overspreading" or "uttermost part" nature of the abomination of desolation could mean that it will involve not just the holy place of the temple, but the entire temple. For example, what the Antichrist could do is engrave the gematrial number of his name, "666" (Revelation 13:17b-18), all over the temple, within and without, top to bottom, thereby completely and utterly defiling it, rendering it spiritually desolate.

The Antichrist will be Luciferian, bringing the world into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9), and railing against YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). He will want to utterly defile the future, 3rd Jewish temple to YHWH in Jerusalem (built by the ultra-Orthodox Jews) so that he can poke his finger in YHWH's eye, so to speak, and purportedly show to the world (what he could call) "YHWH's powerlessness to defend the place that he himself has chosen" (cf. Zechariah 3:2). The Antichrist could claim that his ability to commit the abomination of desolation with impunity proves (in his words) "that YHWH cannot thwart the will of our Lord Lucifer, who empowers me" (cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:9, Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9).

But YHWH will permit the Antichrist and Lucifer to rule the world with impunity for less than 4 years (Daniel 12:11-12), before they are utterly defeated at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19 to 20:3).

stephen583 said in post 167:

You obviously have difficulty interpreting Scripture in this context, and discerning the difference between the term "temple" as it refers to a physical building, or structure, (i.e a Mosaic temple), and where it's used in a "spiritual" sense, particularly where Daniel 9:27 and Daniel 11:31 are concerned.

Regarding Daniel 11:31, note that there, like in Daniel 12:11 and Daniel 8:11-13, the original Hebrew word (tamiyd: H8548) translated as "daily" refers to the daily, morning and evening lamb sacrifices which were required under the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Exodus 29:38-42, Numbers 28:3-8; 1 Chronicles 16:40). This is why Daniel 9:27 refers to the "sacrifice" (zebach: H2077) ceasing, and why Daniel 8:11-13 is referred to as the vision of "the evening and the morning" (Daniel 8:26), and why the original Hebrew words (ereb, H6153; and boqer, H1242) translated as the single word "days" in Daniel 8:14, mean "evenings" and "mornings", in reference to the evening and morning lamb sacrifices.

*******

stephen583 said in post 168:

. . . Jesus cursed the Jewish temple and said it was left unto you desolate, (Luke 13:35, Matthew 23:38).

Regarding Luke 13:35a and Matthew 23:38, they refer to the spiritual desolation of Jerusalem (Luke 13:34, Matthew 23:37) insofar as it rejects Jesus (1 John 5:12b, cf. Galatians 4:25), while Luke 13:35b and Matthew 23:39 refer to the future salvation of the unbelieving elect Jews who will be living in Jerusalem at Jesus' 2nd coming, when they will see him in person and believe in him (Zechariah 12:10-14, Romans 11:26-29).

But note that Luke 13:35a and Matthew 23:38, like Matthew 27:51, didn't mean that the 2nd Jewish temple in Jerusalem had become spiritually desolate. For it remained holy even after Jesus' death and resurrection. That is why the church continued to worship God there (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17). What the rending of the veil in Matthew 27:51 pictured was the opening of the holiest place in heaven to Christians (Hebrews 10:19-22, Hebrews 9:24), by the abolishing of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-27, Hebrews 10:9b), and by the establishment of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28), at the moment that Jesus died on the Cross for our sins (Hebrews 9:15-17, Hebrews 10:19-20, Matthew 27:50-51).

The rending of the veil in Matthew 27:51 didn't mean that God no longer dwelt in the 2nd temple (as in Matthew 23:21). (Again) That is why the church continued to worship God in the 2nd temple even after Jesus' death and physical resurrection (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17).
 
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Achilles6129 said in post 170:

The temple would be rebuilt because Paul says it has to exist in 2 Thess. 2:

" 4 who opposes and exalts himself above [e]every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God." 2 Thess. 2:4 (NASB)

Good point.

For no man in the past ever sat in the Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaimed himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, cf. Matthew 24:15), just as no man ever fulfilled other detailed references to the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) in Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 16:2-16, Revelation 19:19-21, and 2 Thessalonians 2:8-9. Any mistaken teaching which claims that the Antichrist has already come and gone could be employed in our future by the real Antichrist to fool some Christians into thinking that he isn't the Antichrist.

The Antichrist will fulfill 2 Thessalonians 2:4 after he by force takes control of a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, stops the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices which the ultra-Orthodox Jews will have restarted in front of it, and has the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15).

The Antichrist could then make quite a show of his sitting himself in the temple and declaring himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31). In a television and internet spectacle which will be seen live by the world, he could first be shown entering the temple's most holy place in magnificent golden robes. He could then step up to the Ark of the Covenant (which could have been discovered, and placed in the temple by the Jews) and lift the Mercy Seat off the Ark, showing it to be empty. He could then look into the camera and say: "Where is YHWH? He is not here! He is a distant fraud! His power on this earth is as hollow as this empty Ark!" (The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH: Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36.)

Then the Antichrist could raise the Mercy Seat high above his head only to suddenly smash it down violently to the ground, breaking it into pieces. The piped-in sound of crowds roaring with approval could then be heard in the background. Then the Antichrist could place his hands on the Ark and stare into the camera: "WE can do better than this". He could then knock over the Ark and stamp it with his foot, bashing in its side. Two of the Antichrist's followers in robes could then quickly come in and clear away the rubble of the Mercy Seat and the Ark, while 4 strong men in robes carry into the temple's most holy place a magnificent golden throne and place it right where the Ark had been before. The men could then bow down and motion with their arms for the Antichrist to sit on the throne. He could then grandly take his seat upon it.

Glorious symphonic music could then swell as the sound of crowds roaring with approval increases. Then the Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 19:20) (who could be an apostate pope) could enter the temple's most holy place and approach the Antichrist carrying a majestic golden crown encrusted with large diamonds and all kinds of precious stones. The Antichrist could take the crown from the pope's outstretched hands. And as the Antichrist is placing the crown on his own head, a camera could zoom in on his face as he says in a deep voice: "I AM THAT I AM. I AM YOUR GOD. WORSHIP ME, ALL YE NATIONS OF THE EARTH!"

(cf. Revelation 13:8, Daniel 11:36; 2 Thessalonians 2:4)
 
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I seriously doubt the Dome of the Rock Mosque is going to be destroyed, or that a Jewish temple is going to be rebuilt in it's place, and Levitical temple worship is going to be restored, or that a false Messiah will appear in Jerusalem. These predictions appear to me to be an attempt to Judaize Bible prophecy.
Give the man a seegar! All that stuff is standard issue gobbledygook from the It's All About Isreal school of eschatology. These folks believe that the Christian faith and the Church are just temporary, to be replaced on our Lord's Return with Temple Judaism 2.0, complete with animal sacrifice!
 
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Why hasn't Christ returned yet?

I believe the reason is that the “Gospel of the Kingdom” has not yet been preached in the whole world.

This gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world for a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
Matt. 24:14
 
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Revelation 19:7-8
[7]Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.”
[8]And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
 
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