Annihilationism

Timothew · Jul 1, 2016

Luke17:37 said:
Since Sheol is a place of torture for the wicked, how much more will the Lake of Fire be (after the judgment)?

Actually Sheol is a place of death, and the lake of fire is called the second death.
Since Sheol is a place of death, and the lake of fire is the second death, and Paul says that the wages of sin is death, and Jesus said that those who refuse to repent will perish, isn't it much more Biblical to say that the wicked will perish rather than be tortured alive in Sheol or the Lake of Fire?

Luke17:37 · Jul 1, 2016

Timothew said:
Actually Sheol is a place of death, and the lake of fire is called the second death.
Since Sheol is a place of death, and the lake of fire is the second death, and Paul says that the wages of sin is death, and Jesus said that those who refuse to repent will perish, isn't it much more Biblical to say that the wicked will perish rather than be tortured alive in Sheol or the Lake of Fire?

You ignored the torment in the verses I posted (post #426). And the "forever and ever."

Jesus is the Life (John 14:6). Every child who is born alive (breathing, heart pumping, etc.) is born spiritually dead. Unless the child comes to know the Eternal Life (through repentance and faith in Him) in his or her earthly lifetime (John 17:3, 1 John 5:12), he will be spiritually dead for eternity. Even though he/she comes into existence dead, in a certain aspect he/she has life. Since this is true, death has more meaning than annihilation.

There are host of potential problem when you believe people will simply cease to exist in the Lake of Fire. These are the chief concerns, as I see them:

- Complacency in sharing the gospel since you believe the wicked will not really suffer
- Complacency in keeping the faith since if you don't, in your mind you will just "cease to exist" - You will be less likely to endure severe persecution such as not being able to buy or sell (Revelation 13:15-17), torture, and beheading (Revelation 20:4) since you don't have a concept of what you will inherit if you fall away from the faith.

expos4ever · Jul 1, 2016

StanJ said:
Again another false accusation that abound plentifully here apparently.

I have made no false accusations and I challenge to prove otherwise by citing post number.

StanJ said:
That's right, even though you taking it out of context.

How can you possibly say I am taking it out of context. Let's review. You posted (but I added the bolding):

StanJ said:
Paul is referring to the Judgment of Israel in Romans 2 not the judgement or punishment of individuals.

I replied by citing this text from Paul in Romans 2:

There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil

Now what do we have?

1. We have you directly asserting that Romans 2 does not deal with the judgment/punishment of individuals.
2. We have Paul asserting that every human being who does evil will be judged/punished.

How are you not directly contradicting Paul? Well, your answer is "context" - that the Romans 2 treatment is about the judgment of Israel. Well, if that were really true, you might have a leg to stand on. However, the possibility that Paul is talking about some national judgment of Israel is eliminated by this:

There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

I have asked you confirm that the word Gentile appears here, and you have remained silent. Hmmmmm....

Anyhoo, whether you accept it or not, it is clear from the clear and repeated references to the judgment/punishment of Gentiles, coupled with the explicit reference to "every human being" that the Romans 2 judgment is certainly not limited to Israel.

What is your response - I see no "context" other than a universal judgment of all person who have ever lived, Jew or Gentile. Please address the details of my challenge to your position.

expos4ever · Jul 1, 2016

Timothew said:
I agree. Can we all agree to have a civil conversation about what the Bible actually says.

We should be able to do this. Can we please stop with:

1. Patronizing remarks to the effect that a poster does not know their bible are not helpful.
2. Speculating about motives and other things one cannot possibly know are not helpful.
3. Repeatedly not answering clear questions, while not directly rude per se, really should not be tolerated in a responsible, adult discussion.
4. Posting links with huge content and not being willing to make the case in your own words is effectively a gish gallop, an avoidance strategy.

Jan001 · Jul 1, 2016

ewq1938 said:
I know. That is my position and it proves eternal torture to be wrong.

Isaiah 55:8
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, says the Lord. rsv

Jan001 · Jul 1, 2016

expos4ever said:
Sure there are:

"For the wages of sin is death....."

"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell"

The defenders of eternal torment deal with these texts by either:

1. Redefining words like "death" and "destroy" to mean "preserve forever in a fully conscious state" - this is to take the concept of "death" and basically morph it to mean its opposite;

2. Arbitrarily (i.e. without supporting justification) assuming that such words are restricted in their scope of application. Thus, "the wages of sin is death" becomes "the wages of sin is death for the body only (and, by implication) eternal life, albeit in torment, for the soul".

Neither option is really very defensible.

Eternal life is happiness with God.

Eternal death is the loss of eternal life/happiness with God.

The soul of a person can never be annihilated by the flames in hell and neither was the burning bush annihilated by the flames on earth.

Mark 9:47-49
And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, 48 where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched. 49 For every one will be salted with fire. rsv

Timothew · Jul 1, 2016

Luke17:37 said:
You ignored the torment in the verses I posted (post #426). And the "forever and ever."

Surely I do not need to repeat what has been posted before about Rev 20, Rev 14 and Luke 16. Do I?
Are you prepared to overturn the rest of scripture based on one or two verses from the Apocalypse?
If you read those verses, they don't even say that it is humans who are tormented, or that the torment lasts forever. (The SMOKE rises forever, not the torment)
The parable in Luke isn't even talking about the final state of the unrepentant. It is disheartening to have to repeat the same answers to the same objections over and over. Couldn't you have read through the thread and seen that your objections have already been answered? The rich man's brothers are still alive. How could this parable be talking about the final state of the unrepentant, if some people are still alive at the time? And does your theology REALLY require eternal torment, followed by resurrection and a second round of eternal torment? And do you REALLY want to take the parable literally? The Rich Man's crime was having a lot of money. How much money do you have? You had better give it all away or you risk burning alive in hell without any water for your tongue.

Jesus is the Life (John 14:6). Every child who is born alive (breathing, heart pumping, etc.) is born spiritually dead.

I'm sorry, but the Bible simply does not say what you are claiming. Go to the Bible and search. Find me even ONE verse that says "Every child who is born alive is born spiritually dead."
Are you prepared to state that infants will also burn alive in hell forever? That is the implication, since you claim that they are born spiritually dead.

- Complacency in sharing the gospel since you believe the wicked will not really suffer

This is not true. It is urgent to share the gospel, since those who perish without the gospel will not have eternal life.

- Complacency in keeping the faith since if you don't, in your mind you will just "cease to exist" - You will be less likely to endure severe persecution such as not being able to buy or sell (Revelation 13:15-17), torture, and beheading (Revelation 20:4) since you don't have a concept of what you will inherit if you fall away from the faith.

This is not true, as I consider DESTRUCTION to be a very BAD thing.
Do you consider eternal life with Christ such a worthless thing that unless you are threatened with eternal torture you would fall away? As much as you Traditionalists argue for it, being completely destroyed IS NOT A GOOD THING.
Do you honestly expect me to believe that being destroyed is just as good as having eternal life?

Timothew · Jul 1, 2016

Jan001 said:
Isaiah 55:8
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, says the Lord. rsv

Exactly, that is why we believe that the wicked will be destroyed, just as the Bible says.
For those of you who think that the wicked will be preserved forever in hell being tormented alive forever, remember this verse, "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your way my ways, says the Lord."

I believe that the wicked will be destroyed, because God's Word specifically states that the wicked will be destroyed.

Why do you assume that your thoughts that God will torture the lost in hell are the same as God's thoughts? The verse you posted even says that His thoughts are not the same as your thoughts.

expos4ever · Jul 1, 2016

Jan001 said:
The soul of a person can never be annihilated and neither was the burning bush annihilated by the flames.

Mark 9:47-49
And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, 48 where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched. 49 For every one will be salted with fire. rsv

The text you provided does not support your assertion. To say that the worm does not die, or that the fire does not go out, does not necessarily mean that the person "gnawed" by worm, or burned by the fire, persist forever.

This is not complicated. If I have a fire that lasts 10 hours, this certainly does not mean that a piece of paper tossed into that fire will also last for 10 hours!

Timothew · Jul 1, 2016

Jan001 said:
Eternal life is happiness with God.

That is not what the Bible actually says.

Eternal death is the loss of eternal life/happiness with God.

That isn't what the Bible says either.

The soul of a person can never be annihilated and neither was the burning bush annihilated by the flames.

As a matter of fact, Jesus said in Matthew 10:28 that both the body and the soul CAN be destroyed.

Mark 9:47-49
And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, 48 where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched. 49 For every one will be salted with fire. rsv

Mark 9:47-49 does not say that there is eternal conscious torment in hell. If you have been paying attention, you will know that in Mark 9:47-49, Jesus is quoting Isaiah 66:24 and he did not change what Isaiah said, that the worms are eating corpses, not living souls, and the fire is burning corpses, not tormenting living people.

What does John 3:16 say in your Bible?

Jan001 · Jul 1, 2016

Timothew said:
I'm sorry, the Bible simply does not say that evildoers are immortal. If you think that the Bible says this, please show the Chapter and Verse. Destroyed forever means to be destroyed and remain destroyed forever. It does not mean a continuing state of destroying which never results in destruction. That could not be called "Destroyed". If the end of destruction is never reached, then it is not destruction.

But the simple fact is that the Bible never says that evildoers are immortal. The Bible says that the GIFT of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Those who reject Christ will not receive the Gift of eternal life. They will not receive immortality.

All human souls are immortal.

Mark 9:47-49
And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, 48 where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched. 49 For every one will be salted with fire. rsv

The second death is the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:14
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire; 15 and if any one’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. rsv

Spiritual life and spiritual death. Spiritual death is the loss of eternal life with God.

Eternal life with God or eternal death with Satan. Both states are forever.

Jesus said the rich man was being tormented by a flame in Hades. We know it is hell because Jesus said that he could never leave there. Please note that the rich man's soul/spirit was not annihilated by the flames.

Luke 16:22-25
The rich man also died and was buried; 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Laz′arus in his bosom. 24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Laz′arus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Laz′arus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ rsv

John 5:28-29
Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. nkjv

Jan001 · Jul 1, 2016

expos4ever said:
The text you provided does not support your assertion. To say that the worm does not die, or that the fire does not go out, does not necessarily mean that the person "gnawed" by worm, or burned by the fire, persist forever.

This is not complicated. If I have a fire that lasts 10 hours, this certainly does not mean that a piece of paper tossed into that fire will also last for 10 hours!

Their worm does not die because their worm always has something to feed upon.

Jan001 · Jul 1, 2016

Timothew said:
That is not what the Bible actually says.

That isn't what the Bible says either.

As a matter of fact, Jesus said in Matthew 10:28 that both the body and the soul CAN be destroyed.

Mark 9:47-49 does not say that there is eternal conscious torment in hell. If you have been paying attention, you will know that in Mark 9:47-49, Jesus is quoting Isaiah 66:24 and he did not change what Isaiah said, that the worms are eating corpses, not living souls, and the fire is burning corpses, not tormenting living people.

What does John 3:16 say in your Bible?

Their worm does not die because their worm is continually feeding upon them.

Timothew · Jul 1, 2016

Jan001 said:
Their worm does not die because their worm is continually feeding upon them.

You are so stubborn. The worms are eating corpses, not living people. This is not a picture of eternal conscious torment. This is a picture of maggots eating dead bodies, and fire burning corpses. Why can't you see this?

And why are you bringing up Isaiah 66:24 when it has already been refuted as evidence for eternal torture in hell?

Timothew · Jul 1, 2016

Jan001, Do you remember that I asked you a question?

Do you remember what that question was? Do you remember me asking you what John 3:16 says in your Bible?

Why didn't you answer? Did you ignore the question because answering it would refute your view? Please go to your Bible and look up John 3:16. Kindly post whatever it says as a reply to this post. It doesn't do for people to ignore what the Bible says in their rush to prove that people go to hell when they die where they are tormented alive forever while they are dead.

This is a serious request. If you are serious about discussing this, look at John 3:16 and consider what it says. What does it say in your Bible?

expos4ever · Jul 1, 2016

Jan001 said:
Their worm does not die because their worm always has something to feed upon.

I understand where you are coming from but this line of argument gets you into a bad spot.

If the worm eats forever, it must have an infinite food supply.

But there is clearly not an infinite number of people in hell - only a finite number of persons will have lived.

So you cannot make the argument you are making - the food supply argument - to support the notion that the worm has something to eat forever and ever.

Besides, I am inclined to agree with Timothew - this an image of the fate of corpses, not living beings.

expos4ever · Jul 1, 2016

Timothew said:
Why didn't you answer?

Let me begin by making it clear: I have not checked whether this poster answered your question. But I can speak to the fact that I have repeatedly asked clear, well-posed questions that simply have not been answered by supporters of eternal torment.

This is not an opinion; it is a fact as the transcript of this and other threads will show. In responsible, adult debate, this evasion strategy is entirely unacceptable and if, repeat if, there were a "debate moderator" charged with ensuring that proper debate protocol were followed, this sort of thing would never be tolerated.

Note that I am not for a moment criticizing the moderators of this board - they clearly, and very understandably, are not in the business of enforcing proper debate protocol. If they were, they would be busy all the time considering the exceedingly low quality of the debates we see on this board.

Timothew · Jul 1, 2016

I Have to ask the traditionalists a serious question. Could I please get a serious answer?

I've been studying this for many years, and I've asked Traditionalists many times what John 3:16 says in their Bibles.
EVERY TIME, and I am not exaggerating, Every time I've asked this question, the question has been ignored.

Why do traditionalists not want to answer this question? I think I know, it is because John 3:16 directly refutes your doctrine. But in your own minds, you must have a reason that you tell yourselves. Why is this question so hard to answer? Why is it like pulling teeth to get you to even say what John 3:16 says in your Bible? And why, for courtesy's sake, do you think that it is okay to just completely ignore a simple question, one that you could easily answer?

Timothew · Jul 1, 2016

expos4ever said:
Let me begin by making it clear: I have not checked whether this poster answered your question. But I can speak to the fact that I have repeatedly asked clear, well-posed questions that simply have not been answered by supporters of eternal torment.

This is not an opinion; it is a fact as the transcript of this and other threads will show. In responsible, adult debate, this evasion strategy is entirely unacceptable and if, repeat if, there were a "debate moderator" charged with ensuring that proper debate protocol were followed, this sort of thing would never be tolerated.

Note that I am not for a moment criticizing the moderators of this board - they clearly, and very understandably, are not in the business of enforcing proper debate protocol. If they were, they would be busy all the time considering the exceedingly low quality of the debates we see on this board.

That's it. If this were an honest discussion and an honest attempt to discover the truth, they would answer.
They do not want to know what the truth is, they only want confirmation of what they already believe.

I am good and sick of it.
ECTists, Don't answer any question that you don't want to answer. But you need to know that if you do not, you lost the debate, and you do not need to post anything further.

StanJ · Jul 1, 2016

Luke17:37 said:
Yes, it is: Luke 16:23-25
Yes, it will be: Revelation 14:9-11, Revelation 20:10

No, that's torment, not torture. Torture relates only to the physical.

Annihilationism

What is your view of the final state of the unrepentant.

Annihilationism (I believe the unrepentant will be destroyed)

Traditionalism (I believe the unrepentant will suffer eternal conscious torment in hell)

Universalism (I believe that everyone will eventually be saved)

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