Annihilationism

[StanJ]

You are going to have to tell me where the Bible says that the spirits of the wicked will continue to exist forever. I've never seen that in the Bible, and I just believe what the Bible says.

Rev 20:10
And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet are too, and they will be tormented there day and night forever and ever.
Matt 25:41 & 46
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels!"
And these will depart into eternal punishment.
Rev 22:6-7
“These words are reliable and true. The Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must happen soon.” (Look! I am coming soon! Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy expressed in this book.)

 

[StanJ]

I Have to ask the traditionalists a serious question. Could I please get a serious answer?

I've been studying this for many years, and I've asked Traditionalists many times what John 3:16 says in their Bibles.
EVERY TIME, and I am not exaggerating, Every time I've asked this question, the question has been ignored.

Why do traditionalists not want to answer this question? I think I know, it is because John 3:16 directly refutes your doctrine. But in your own minds, you must have a reason that you tell yourselves. Why is this question so hard to answer? Why is it like pulling teeth to get you to even say what John 3:16 says in your Bible? And why, for courtesy's sake, do you think that it is okay to just completely ignore a simple question, one that you could easily answer?

John 3:16
For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.
John 11:25-26
“I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live even if he dies, and the one who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

 

[StanJ]

The text you provided does not support your assertion. To say that the worm does not die, or that the fire does not go out, does not necessarily mean that the person "gnawed" by worm, or burned by the fire, persist forever.
This is not complicated. If I have a fire that lasts 10 hours, this certainly does not mean that a piece of paper tossed into that fire will also last for 10 hours!

Again human reasoning is not how we read the Bible. We read, we have faith, and we believe. Why is it you believe everything thrown into a fire burns up immediately? Did Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego burn up immediately? Did the flames even affect them one iota?
Was the burning bush consumed by fire? Does the devil, the beast, and the false prophet burn up in the Lake of Fire?

 

[StanJ]

Exactly, that is why we believe that the wicked will be destroyed, just as the Bible says.
For those of you who think that the wicked will be preserved forever in hell being tormented alive forever, remember this verse, "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your way my ways, says the Lord."

I believe that the wicked will be destroyed, because God's Word specifically states that the wicked will be destroyed.

Why do you assume that your thoughts that God will torture the lost in hell are the same as God's thoughts? The verse you posted even says that His thoughts are not the same as your thoughts.

And where exactly does the bible say that the wicked will cease to exist in both body and spirit?

 

[StanJ]

That's it. If this were an honest discussion and an honest attempt to discover the truth, they would answer.
They do not want to know what the truth is, they only want confirmation of what they already believe.
I am good and sick of it.
ECTists, Don't answer any question that you don't want to answer. But you need to know that if you do not, you lost the debate, and you do not need to post anything further.

I agree, it's most important that any discussion be an honest and open one.

 

[expos4ever]

Why is it you believe everything thrown into a fire burns up immediately? Did Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego burn up immediately? Did the flames even affect them one iota?
Was the burning bush consumed by fire?

The point is that since in some, repeat some cases, the thing thrown in the fire gets consumed and is outlasted by the fire itself, one cannot use a text that refers to an everlasting fire as evidence that souls cast into that fire last forever.

 

[expos4ever]

I agree, it's most important that any discussion be an honest and open one.

Does being honest entail answering legitimate questions?

 

[Der Alte]

Again human reasoning is not how we read the Bible. We read, we have faith, and we believe. Why is it you believe everything thrown into a fire burns up immediately? Did Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego burn up immediately? Did the flames even affect them one iota?
Was the burning bush consumed by fire? Does the devil, the beast, and the false prophet burn up in the Lake of Fire?

I have used this rationale several times with this member and the response has always been the chirping of crickets.

 

[Timothew]

The point is that since in some, repeat some cases, the thing thrown in the fire gets consumed and is outlasted by the fire itself, one cannot use a text that refers to an everlasting fire as evidence that souls cast into that fire last forever.

Check out the Greek word for "Burn Up" in Matthew 3:12
οὗ τὸ πτύον ἐν τῇ χειρὶ αὐτοῦ, καὶ διακαθαριεῖ τὴν ἅλωνα αὐτοῦ, καὶ συνάξει τὸν σῖτον αὐτοῦ εἰς τὴν ἀποθήκην, τὸ δὲ ἄχυρον κατακαύσει πυρὶ ἀσβέστῳ.

The word is κατακαύσει and it means to completely burn up with fire, literally to "burn down." Just the opposite of what tormentists think will happen to the chaff.

 

[Timothew]

I have used this rationale several times with this member and the response has always been the chirping of crickets.

You think the fact that Believers are not burned up by fire is any proof that nonbelievers are not burnt up by fire?
What happened to the guards who stood too close to the fire? Crickets?

You tormentists have no right to complain of chirping crickets when you continually refuse to answer simple questions.
Does the Bible say that the wicked will be destroyed? Yes or No. No Crickets please.

 

[aiki]

Expos4ever and Timothew seemed to determined to talk down any view but their own and will use all sorts of manipulative rhetorical tactics to do so: ad hominem, deflection, dismissal/ignoring points, even attempting to assert control of the discussion by trying to force the dialogue of their opponent to conform to their pre-arranged statements. I have read through this entire thread and have yet to see either of them actually directly and thoroughly engage with their opponents points - though they demand this very sort of engagement from their opponents.

To those who take the time to actually read this far in this thread, I would urge you to carefully consider the posts of DerAlter, who has thoroughly debunked the view of Timothew and expos4ever, despite their denial that this is so.

Selah.

 

[Timothew]

And where exactly does the bible say that the wicked will cease to exist in both body and spirit?

Are you able to be decent? Should I take you off ignore? Do you want to have a decent discussion as mature Christians now?

Jesus said in Matthew 10:28 that both the body and the soul would be destroyed in Gehenna.

 

[Timothew]

Expos4ever and Timothew seemed to determined to talk down any view but their own and will use all sorts of manipulative rhetorical tactics to do so: ad hominem, deflection, dismissal/ignoring points, even attempting to assert control of the discussion by trying to force the dialogue of their opponent to conform to their pre-arranged statements. I have read through this entire thread and have yet to see either of them actually directly and thoroughly engage with their opponents points - though they demand this very sort of engagement from their opponents.

To those who take the time to actually read this far in this thread, I would urge you to carefully consider the posts of DerAlter, who has thoroughly debunked the view of Timothew and expos4ever, despite their denial that this is so.

Selah.

No, we have not. I have only seen what you are claiming on your side.

What does John 3:16 say in your Bible?
What does Romans 6:23 say?
Will I continue to hear crickets, as DerAlter has (so kindly) said?

I've read Der Alter's posts and he continually tries to tell me that the Greek Lexicon is wrong and apollumi does not mean destroy, just as ALL of the translators continually translate it. You can look it up yourself and it actually does mean "Utterly destroy." Now DerAlter has been trying to convince me that the Hebrew word "shamad" doesn't mean destroy.

 

[StanJ]

Does being honest entail answering legitimate questions?

Legitimate, yes.

 

[Der Alte]

You think the fact that Believers are not burned up by fire is any proof that nonbelievers are not burnt up by fire?
What happened to the guards who stood too close to the fire? Crickets?

Irrelevant! The false annihilationist argument posits that fire always, ever destroys anything/everything placed in it. The stories of Shadrach, Meschach and Abednego and the burning bush show that to be false. If God so chooses fire does not destroy. Therefore when the word of God says that the devil, the beast and the false prophet are thrown into the LOF and they are tormented day and night for ever and ever, God is capable of doing that. He did it before and He can do it again.

You tormentists have no right to complain of chirping crickets when you continually refuse to answer simple questions.
Does the Bible say that the wicked will be destroyed? Yes or No. No Crickets please.

Answered many. many times before but since you don't like the answer you ignore it. Shall I post the complete definition of apollumi again which shows that 83% of the occurrences of the word in the NT it means things like spilled wine, faded flowers, spoiled food, tarnished gold, people drowning, being killed by a falling tower, etc. and in the relevant vss. it does not mean the type of "destruction" you argue happens in the final judgment.

 

[Timothew]

I will ask again,

Can we PLEASE refrain from adhominums, bitter attacks, name calling, and all of that garbage on this thread?

This is a BIBLE STUDY for Pity's Sake!

 

[StanJ]

I have used this rationale several times with this member and the response has always been the chirping of crickets.

Deflection, mis-direction, obfuscation, and equivocation are all by-products of supporting a false Doctrine. When you start digging down into scripture for real answers, that's when you hear the crickets chirping.

 

[StanJ]

I will ask again,
Can we PLEASE refrain from adhominums, bitter attacks, name calling, and all of that garbage on this thread?
This is a BIBLE STUDY for Pity's Sake!

As soon as you start practicing what you're preaching then I'm sure other people will reciprocate. You are not really fooling anybody.

 

[Timothew]

Irrelevant! The false annihilationist argument posits that fire always, ever destroys anything/everything placed in it. The stories of Shadrach, Meschach and Abednego and the burning bush show that to be false. If God so chooses fire does not destroy. Therefore when the word of God says that the devil, the beast and the false prophet are thrown into the LOF and they are tormented day and night for ever and ever, God is capable of doing that. He did it before and He can do it again.

It is not irrelevant. The fact that God protects his people even in the flames is not proof that God torments his enemies in flames.
Even if you can show some flames that do not destroy, this does not prove that flames never destroy. God is capable of making a rock so large that even he can't lift it. That doesn't mean that he is going to. The Bible says that the wicked will perish, the wicked will be destroyed, and the wicked will be no more. Should I ignore all of that, just because Shadrach and his friends survived the furnace?

Answered many. many times before but since you don't like the answer you ignore it. Shall I post the complete definition of apollumi again which shows that 83% of the occurrences of the word in the NT it means things like spilled wine, faded flowers, spoiled food, tarnished gold, people drowning, being killed by a falling tower, etc. and in the relevant vss. it does not mean the type of "destruction" you argue happens in the final judgment.

I haven't ignored it. I've told you time and time again to look at the context, but time and time again you refuse to.
Matthew 10:28 PEOPLE can't kill the soul, GOD CAN.
John 3:16 (Same word, different form) Either people have eternal life or they perish. Perish is the opposite of having eternal life. The CONTEXT shows that apollumi means destroy. The CONTEXT shows that apoletai means perish.

 

[hedrick]

Irrelevant! The false annihilationist argument posits that fire always, ever destroys anything/everything placed in it. The stories of Shadrach, Meschach and Abednego and the burning bush show that to be false. If God so chooses fire does not destroy. Therefore when the word of God says that the devil, the beast and the false prophet are thrown into the LOF and they are tormented day and night for ever and ever, God is capable of doing that. He did it before and He can do it again.

These are regarded as miracles. Surely God can preserve people from destruction in a fire. But are you seriously suggesting that God miraculously protects people from the fires of hell just so they can suffer more?

A better argument would be that the fires in those two stories are literal and deal with bodies, whereas the fires in the Revelation are symbolic and are dealing with spiritual beings. Whether this argument is convincing is another case.