Hell

LittleLambofJesus said:

Can't roast wieners down there either.
Btw, did you know July is National Hot Dog month?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7576320-5/#post58002615
Kosher hot dogs

What are hot dogs made of?

Are hot dogs really made from pigs' snouts and unused meat scraps?

Whether it is pork or beef that is stuffed into a hot dog, the meat trimmings are carefully selected just like the meat you buy in your grocer's coolers.
Most recipes for hot dogs combine together a tasty blend of favorite meats (pork, beef, chicken, or turkey),

.

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I too have heard of the myth about hotdogs, good to finally put it to rest. Thanks for the post.

CherubRam said:

Your words are a contradiction to this verse: Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in (the grave / hell.)

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my car is destroyed at the junkyard (pick and pull) but it still exists.

just in pieces

gradyll said:

my car is destroyed at the junkyard (pick and pull) but it still exists.

just in pieces

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And whatever was left in it.....reminds me of this scene in the movie "Goldfinger", in which both a dead body and cache of gold are in it..........

1963 Lincoln Continental gets crushed - YouTube

LittleLambofJesus said:

And whatever was left in it.....reminds me of this scene in the movie "Goldfinger", in which both a dead body and cache of gold are in it..........

1963 Lincoln Continental gets crushed - YouTube

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I was making my way through all the james bond reruns on netflix, then they discontinued them in the last week. I had no idea there was so many.

gradyll said:

sorry to but in to the conversation but a few observations must be made:


so the fact that he misspelled a word makes his argument invalid a little bit?

wrong, thats called poisoning the well and is a ad hominem fallacy as well.





secondly, you poison the well again with saying basically that "the dreadful place" doesn't exist because of RCC false use of indulgences. This again would be an adhominem against Eternal Hell advocates and not a real argument. I need not go on with your post At this point. however, it may be of use to point out some examples of adhominems so that you may avoid further use...

Ad Hominem Examples

• A lawyer attacking a defendant’s character rather than addressing or questioning based on the case, e.g., in a case of theft pointing out the defendant’s level of poverty.
• A politician degrading another politician during a political campaign when asked about a specific policy, e.g. “Well, I think we need to look at the other candidate’s failures regarding this topic.”
• Responding in any debate with an attack on one’s personal beliefs.
• Using someone’s known background or beliefs to respond in a way such as “Of course you would say that, because you believe _____.”
• Stating that someone’s argument is incorrect because of her religious beliefs, such as, “Perhaps if you weren’t part of the religious group that you are, you would see this quite differently.”
• Demeaning a teacher’s decision on grading by insulting her intelligence, e.g., “Well, it’s not like you graduated from the best school, so I can see why you wouldn’t know how to properly grade a writing assignment.”
• Using racial slurs to demean a person of another race in an argument about a crime involving people of different racial backgrounds, such as, “People like you don’t understand what it’s like to be of my race so you blatantly have no right to make an argument about this situation.”
• Generalizing views of a political party as an insulting argument to an individual who is a member of a different party, e.g., “Well, it’s pretty obvious that your political party doesn’t know how to be fiscally responsible, so I wouldn’t expect you to, either.”
• Stating that one’s age precludes him from being able to make an intelligent or meaningful argument, such as, “You are clearly just too young to understand.”
• Use of marital status to invalidate an opinion of someone of a different status, e.g., “How can you make a decision about someone having marital problems if you’ve never been married yourself?”
• Asserting that someone’s geographical location prevents him from being able to make a clear judgment, such as, “You’ve only ever lived in an urban environment. The issues of those in other areas is clearly beyond you.”
• Using gender as a means to devalue an argument from an opposing gender, e.g., “This is a female issue. As a man, how can you have an opinion about this?”
• Stating that the ethnicity of the opposing individual keeps him from formulating a valuable opinion, e.g., “You are from the United States, so you could never understand what it’s like to live in a country like that.”
• Using someone’s educational level as a means to exploit and degrade the opposer’s argument, such as, “You didn’t even finish high school - how could you possibly know about this?”
• Relying on socioeconomic status as a means to undermine an opposing individual’s opinion, such as, “You wouldn’t understand since you have never had to struggle."

above list from:

Ad Hominem Examples

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Grady, you spelled "butt" wrong. That kind of butt; "such as butting in" is spelled butt; not "but".

Originally Posted by Evergreen48

That resembles THE GOLDEN RULE OF INTERPRETATION, but actually that one goes like this:
"When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise."

There is no established literary converse to this rule. And frankly, I don't think you are quite ready for the role of "maxim maker".
​

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Der Alter said:

Disengenuous accusation, I never claimed to be a maxim maker. The final clause is the converse. If the stated conditions dictate then a word/verse is figurative..........

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Originally Posted by Evergreen48
This comment makes no sense at all, plus the fact that you misspelled the word 'disingenuous', plus the fact that I never accused you of any thing at all..........

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gradyll said:

sorry to but in to the conversation but a few observations must be made:

so the fact that he misspelled a word makes his argument invalid a little bit?

Ad Hominem Examples

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Evergreen48 said:

Grady, you spelled "butt" wrong. That kind of butt; "such as butting in" is spelled butt; not "but".

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Our resident grammar cop must have read this thread on grammar

http://www.christianforums.com/t7483715/
Basic Grammar for GT, Courtesy of Mel and GCC

Originally Posted by Melethiel

Nothing ruins your argument and credibility more than a poorly phrased post. If your post looks like a 2nd grader wrote it, it doesn't matter how good your argument is. I'm far, FAR less likely to take you seriously.
So, because I'm a grammar freak and twitch and die a little every time somebody confuses your and you're, a basic grammar (and posting) lesson for all the denizens of GT:<snip>..............
​

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Evergreen48 said:

Grady, you spelled "butt" wrong. That kind of butt; "such as butting in" is spelled butt; not "but".

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when you feel inclined you can respond to the post I patiently gave regarding your tactics.

LittleLambofJesus said:

Our resident grammar cop must have read this thread on grammar

http://www.christianforums.com/t7483715/
Basic Grammar for GT, Courtesy of Mel and GCC

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coming from the non orthodox atheist threads (I should say- creation/evolution threads), I can spot a fallacy in a moment. When one is lacking for factual basis they grasp as straws. Be it grammar, spelling, political affiliation, labeling & straw men arguments, any host of ad hominem, and even abusive ad hominem arguments fill those threads. Normally it takes a few weeks of calling out the fallacies before the threads become someone decent to live in. I am actually taking a break from it as work is picking up (more hours, less time). But when the time is right I will go back and get beat down by endless hours of abuse and insult. Only to politely remind them that it is nothing but fallacy and flaming, and that there really is no valid argument either for atheism or for annihilationism. So they can keep up their grammar cop attitudes as eventually they will have to muster up an argument.

CherubRam said:

I think the word "parable" eludes you.

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Parables are only in the Gospels, and not in the rest of the Bible. They only come from one of a few books, and only come from the Mouth of Christ. So how can you make a blanket statement indicating that you believe that all the verses RE: hell fire, are parables?

for example what about when HELL fire verses are not in the parable sections of scripture:

2 Thessalonians 1:8,9.
&#8220;In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ; Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power.&#8221;

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.&#8221;

Revelation 20:15.
&#8220;And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.&#8221;

Revelation 21:8.
&#8220;But the fearful and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.&#8221;

Isaiah 66:24.
&#8220;And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; And they (lost) shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.&#8221;

Psalm 11:6.
&#8220;Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.&#8221;


Since Hell fire is all over the OLD and NEW Testaments, are we to conclude that your hermeneutic is that the Bible is one big Parable?

CherubRam said:

Der Alter said:

No they do not. All you have to do is show me a verse which depicts or foretells God destroying a single soul in hell. There are verses which foretell of people being thrown into the lake of fire. There are verses which foretell of people being thrown into a furnace of fire where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. There are verses which foretell of people being thrown into hell where the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched. But there is not one verse which says "God will destroy his/her soul."

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I think the word "parable" eludes you.

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The standard unscriptural later theological system cop-out. When scripture, as written, refutes a pet doctrine then just blow it off as SPAM-Fig, i.e. symbolic, poetic, allegory, metaphor, figurative, anything but literal. Are you trying to say that God does not literally destroy any souls in hell, that is only a parable? A parable compares an unknown or misunderstood something with a known something. So in the "parable" you are alluding to, what is the unknown and what is the known.

gradyll said:

Parables are only in the Gospels, and not in the rest of the Bible. They only come from one of a few books, and only come from the Mouth of Christ. So how can you make a blanket statement indicating that you believe that all the verses RE: hell fire, are parables?

for example what about when HELL fire verses are not in the parable sections of scripture:

2 Thessalonians 1:8,9.
“In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ; Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power.”

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Revelation 20:15.
“And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”

Revelation 21:8.
“But the fearful and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”

Isaiah 66:24.
“And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; And they (lost) shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.”

Psalm 11:6.
“Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.”


Since Hell fire is all over the OLD and NEW Testaments, are we to conclude that your hermeneutic is that the Bible is one big Parable?

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I forgot one:

2 Peter 3:7
But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

gradyll said:

Parables are only in the Gospels, Since Hell fire is all over the OLD and NEW Testaments, are we to conclude that your hermeneutic is that the Bible is one big Parable?

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Num 23:7 And he took up his parable, and said, Balak the king of Moab hath brought me from Aram, out of the mountains of the east, saying, Come, curse me Jacob, and come, defy Israel.

Job 27:1 Moreover Job continued his parable, and said, 19 The rich man shall lie down, but he shall not be gathered: he openeth his eyes, and he is not.

Matthew 24:24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

Job 19:21 Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me.
SATAN (&#963;&#945;&#964;&#945;&#957;&#945;&#962;, 4567), a Greek form derived from the Aramaic (Heb.ha-satan,), “an adversary,” is used (a) of an angel of Jehovah in Num. 22:22 (the first occurrence of the Word in the OT); (b) of men, e.g., 1 Sam. 29:4; Ps. 38:20; 71:13; four in Ps. 109; (c) of “Satan,” the Devil, some seventeen or eighteen times in the OT; in Zech. 3:1, where the name receives its interpretation, “to be (his) adversary,”

SLANDERER diabolos (&#948;&#953;&#945;&#946;&#959;&#955;&#959;&#962;, 1228), an adjective, “slanderous, accusing falsely,” is used as a noun, translated “slanderers” in 1 Tim. 3:11, where the reference is to those who are given to finding fault with the demeanor and conduct of others and spreading their innuendos and criticisms in the church; in 2 Tim. 3:3, RV (KJV, “false accusers”); Titus 2:3
VINE’S COMPLETE EXPOSITORY DICTIONARY

Psa 35:5 Let them be as chaff before the wind: and let the angel of the LORD chase them

Isa 47:14 Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire [of GOD] shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it...because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel. 5:24

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall pay a penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

he-man said:

Num 23:7 And he took up his parable, and said, Balak the king of Moab hath brought me from Aram, out of the mountains of the east, saying, Come, curse me Jacob, and come, defy Israel.

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if you look at the hebrew here, parable is better translated as oracle or discourse:

Numbers 23:7

(NKJV)
"And he took up his oracle"

(NET)
"Then Balaam uttered his oracle"

(ESV)
"And Balaam took up his discourse"

(NAS)
He took up his discourse

parables are a specific teaching out of the mouth of one man only, Jesus.

gradyll said:

if you look at the hebrew here, parable is better translated as oracle or discourse: Numbers 23:7 parables are a specific teaching out of the mouth of one man only, Jesus.

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KOINE GREEK &#960;&#945;&#961;&#945;&#946;&#959;&#955;&#951;&#769; parabole&#772;
From G3846; a similitude (&#8220;parable&#8221, that is, (symbolically) fictitious narrative (of common life conveying a moral), apoth gm or adage: - comparison, figure, parable, proverb.

Just as Job is a fictitious narrative, so are the parables of Christ.

Do not know where you were taught Hebrew but they instructed you badly:
H4912 &#1502;&#1513;&#1473;&#1500;
ma&#770;sha&#770;l maw-shawl'
Apparently from H4910 in some original sense of superiority in mental action; properly a pithy maxim, usually of a metaphorical nature; hence a simile (as an adage, poem, discourse): - byword, like, parable, proverb.

he-man said:

KOINE GREEK &#960;&#945;&#961;&#945;&#946;&#959;&#955;&#951;&#769; parabole&#772;
From G3846; a similitude (&#8220;parable&#8221, that is, (symbolically) fictitious narrative (of common life conveying a moral), apoth gm or adage: - comparison, figure, parable, proverb.

:
H4912 &#1502;&#1513;&#1473;&#1500;
ma&#770;sha&#770;l maw-shawl'
Apparently from H4910 in some original sense of superiority in mental action; properly a pithy maxim, usually of a metaphorical nature; hence a simile (as an adage, poem, discourse): - byword, like, parable, proverb.

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the exact hebrew there was regarding a simile or poem. Poetry comes in literal and not literal forms, and parables so to, come in literal and not literal forms:

----------------------
Hebrew Poetry
A. Poetry in general
Poetic form: Allen p.28
The nature of poetry: Allen p.41-50
unfortunate that some Bible paraphrases remove much of the poetry
Misconceptions in poetry
The idea that literal meaning and poetic meaning are somehow opposed
We use poetic language all the time in everyday speech, even something as mundane as a sports commentary
&#8220;the bases are loaded&#8221;, &#8220;It&#8217;s not over till the fat lady sings&#8221;
The notion that poetry is always imprecise and ambiguous
B. Parallelism
(Much of this section is borrowed from Ross)
The basic feature of biblical poetry is the recurrent use of a relatively short sentence-form that consists of two (or more) brief clauses:
By day the LORD sends forth his love /

and at night His song is with me. (Psalm 42:9)
The clauses are regularly separated by a slight pause, for the second part is a continuation of the first and not a completely new beginning.
On occasion, four parts may form the line.
The relationship between the parts of a line is called &#8220;parallelism&#8221;.
C. Types of Parallelism
Robert Lowthe is the man credited with the &#8220;discovery&#8221; of biblical parallelism (in 1753).
He distinguished three types: synonymous, antithetical, and synthetic.
The third category, &#8220;synthetic,&#8221; became sort of a catch-all for what would not fit the others.
1. Complete Parallelism

Every single term or thought unit in one line is parallel to an equivalent term or unit in the other line.
Find an example in Psalm 6
Complete parallelism can be subdivided into:
Synonymous Parallelism
where the thought is repeated by the second line in different but synonymous words.
Then Israel / came / to Egypt; /

Jacob / sojourned / in the land of Ham. (Ps. 105:23)
The order of the parallel terms need not be the same in both lines;
Find another example in Psalm 6
Antithetical Parallelism
balances the parallel lines through the opposition or contrast of thought, as in 90:6:
In the morning / it flourishes / and is renewed; /

in the evening / it fades / and withers.
Any in Psalm 6 ? What about Psalm 18 ? Ps 126
(see Psalm 18:18)
Emblematic Parallelism
one of the parallels is literal, the other a simile or a metaphor
As a father / pities / his children, /

so the LORD / pities / those who fear Him. (Ps. 103:13)
see also Psalm 18:16
Inverted or Chiastic Parallelism
strictly speaking a form of synonymous parallelism;
the main difference is that the order of the terms is inverted, like a mirror image
A clear example is found in Isaiah 11:13b:
Ephraim / shall not be jealous of / Judah, /

and Judah / shall not harass / Ephraim.
These are not always complete or perfectly balanced
Another example from Isaiah 1:18

above from:

http://loveintruth.com/psalms/3-hebrew-poetry

Do not know where you were taught Hebrew but they instructed you badly

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this is an ad hominem fallacy and doesn't have any weight in debate. You must explain why in fact my Hebrew is bad. I quoted Three literal translations, so you would be in fact disagreeing with the ESV, the NET and the NASB. Not me.

Just as Job is a fictitious narrative, so are the parables of Christ.

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Job is treated literally as every other book in the Bible. Parables are stories. Thats it. The stories have literal interpretations in the real world. nor is anywhere in Job considered a parable accept a few spot locations. Hebrew was more of a loose language where poems were very prominent. The psalms have many poems. But though they are poems, they are still literal.

To interpret an allegorical text is to follow the intentions of the author. Allegorizing a text implies attaching symbolic meanings to a text that was not intended by the author to be allegorical. -ESV Literary Study Bible Glossary (online)


Conclusion: So you are wrong in several ways here and are allegorizing a text not intended to be allegorical.

thanks for the comment.

gradyll said:

so the fact that he misspelled a word makes his argument invalid a little bit?

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No, it would have still been invalid even if he had spelled the word correctly.

wrong, thats called poisoning the well and is a ad hominem fallacy as well.

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You couldn't be more mistaken. I was just trying to inject a little fun into the conversation. We all have our turn at incorrect spelling from time to time, including myself.

secondly, you poison the well again with saying basically that "the dreadful place" doesn't exist because of RCC false use of indulgences. This again would be an adhominem against Eternal Hell advocates and not a real argument. I need not go on with your post At this point. however, it may be of use to point out some examples of adhominems so that you may avoid further use...

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That's silly. But if that is what you get out of the comment, then I would say to you: "Hang in there, understanding might come your way eventually."

And on a more serious note: Is there anything else you wish to discuss with me?

Evergreen48 said:

And on a more serious note: Is there anything else you wish to discuss with me?[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

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I just don't know how a separate religion's use of indulgences influences another separate religion's views on hell, or how they are related.

gradyll said:

I just don't know how a separate religion's use of indulgences influences another separate religion's views on hell, or how they are related.

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How about a 13th century "Devil's Bible" written by a monk. It was posted by a Catholic on another thread....

http://www.christianforums.com/t7830490/#post65938782
The Devil's Bible

Codex Gigas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Codex Gigas (English: Giant Book) is the largest extant medievalmanuscript in the world.[1]
It is also known as the Devil's Bible because of a large illustration of the devil on the inside and the legend surrounding its creation.
It is thought to have been created in the early 13th century in the Benedictinemonastery of Podla&#382;ice in Bohemia (modern Czech Republic).

Illustration of the devil, Folio 290 recto.
Legend has it the codex was created by a monk
who sold his soul to the devil.


The codex is believed to have been created by Herman the Recluse in the Benedictine monastery of Podla&#382;ice near Chrudim in Czech Republic. The monastery was destroyed during the 15th century during the Hussite Revolution. Records in the codex end in the year 1229. The codex was later pledged to the CisterciansSedlec Monastery and then bought by the Benedictine monastery in B&#345;evnov.

According to one version of a legend that is already recorded in the Middle Ages, the scribe was a monk who broke his monastic vows and was sentenced to be walled up alive.
In order to forbear this harsh penalty he promised to create in one single night a book to glorify the monastery forever, including all human knowledge.


.

LLoJ is there a way to reduce the size of the pics that come in every single post you make? - it tends to fill-up each page you contribute to and does not really add to your otherwise insightful comments.