Hell

[BukiRob]

Lets approach this from a different angle.

Gen 2:15 Adonai, God, took the person and put him in the garden of ‘Eden to cultivate and care for it. 16 Adonai, God, gave the person this order: “You may freely eat from every tree in the garden 17 except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. You are not to eat from it, because on the day that you eat from it, it will become certain that you will die."

Sin=Death not life, not partial life but DEATH.

Gen 3 Now the serpent was more crafty than any wild animal which Adonai, God, had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You are not to eat from any tree in the garden’?” 2 The woman answered the serpent, “We may eat from the fruit of the trees of the garden, 3 but about the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden God said, ‘You are neither to eat from it nor touch it, or you will die.’” 4 The serpent said to the woman, “It is not true that you will surely die; 5 because God knows that on the day you eat from it, your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” 6 When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it had a pleasing appearance and that the tree was desirable for making one wise, she took some of its fruit and ate. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her; and he ate.

This is the lie Satan has been selling mankind from the very beginning. Yeshua said that when he said in John 8:44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

I would argue the beginning Yeshua is speaking of is found in Genesis when Satan lied to Eve about death.

IF you believe that any part of man is immortal (meaning he or she does not die) you contradict what G-d said to Adam, you AGREE with Satan when he told Eve that she would not die, that G-d is a liar because he is keeping things from you ( in the case of Eve it was the knowledge of good and evil.)

Romans tells us the wages of Sin are DEATH. When you die you, are, dead! Paul DID NOT comfort believers who were worried about the saints that had "fallen asleep" by telling them that they were in heaven. NO! He told them that they would be raised from the dead upon Yeshua's return.

Unbelievers are raised to face the final white throne judgement do not have ETERNAL LIFE. In order for them to have punishment that is eternal torment in Hell they would have to have eternal life. The wages of sin are death both physical and spiritual ETERNALLY.

The problem I have is you are trying to skirt the issue... the issue is WHO has eternal life? Only the believer is granted eternal life. Those who reject Yeshua are granted their reward... ETERNAL DEATH

 

[BukiRob]

Ignoring everything I posted and repeating the same scripturally unsupported argument over and over and SHOUTING does not make it so. I already addressed the Lake of fire in the Revelation. The scripture does not say what you claim it does.

Yes, brother it does. It says it where I posted it in Rev 20 I cut and pasted it here earlier and you are intentionally ignoring it.

14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

If your thrown in the lake of fire you go through the second death. If your dead you are dead. Sinners are not granted eternal life.

1 Cor 15: 52 It will take but a moment, the blink of an eye, at the final shofar. For the shofar will sound, and the dead will be raised to live forever, and we too will be changed. 53 For this material which can decay must be clothed with imperishability, this which is mortal must be clothed with immortality. 54 When what decays puts on imperishability and what is mortal puts on immortality, then this passage in the Tanakh will be fulfilled:

Hence without Yeshua the human being has corruptable bodies and CAN NOT partake of or posses immortality. If one is not clothed in or posses immortality but its very nature is mortal. Unsaved mortals cast in to the LOF will be killed and utterly consumed.

You can tell me you think Im wrong all you want but that is what scripture says

 

[Evergreen48]

You saying allegory and parable does not make it so! In Isaiah 14:9-11 and Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 God Himself is speaking. God does not indicate that the passages are allegory/parable. No writer in the entire Bible indentifies the passages as allegory/parable! So saying allegory/parable is a cop-out because scripture contradicts some pet doctrine.

Isa. 14: 7. "The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing. 8.Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us. 9. Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. 10. All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?"

So next you'll be saying that fir trees and cedars actually speak (sing) ??

 

[he-man]

Originally Posted by he-man View Post
Please conjure up an explanation for this if you think it is a metaphor: Ps 21:9 Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the LORD shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them.

Mat 3:12 Whose fan is in His hand, and He will throughly purge His floor, and gather His wheat into the garner; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. So you admit there will be a second death? That must mean no more torture or tears either?

The 19th century Young's Literal Translation and Rotherham's Emphasized Bible both try to be as literal a translation as possible and do not use the word Hell at all, keeping the words Hades and Gehenna untranslated. Annihilationists understand Gehenna to be a place where sinners are eventually utterly destroyed, not tormented forever.

Earlier in the 20th century, some theologians at the University of Cambridge including Basil Atkinson supported the belief. 20th-century English theologians who favour annihilation include Bishop Charles Gore (1916),[4] William Temple, 98th Archbishop of Canterbury (1924);[5] Oliver Chase Quick, Chaplain to the Archbishop of Canterbury (1933),[6] Ulrich Ernst Simon (1964),[7] and Caird G. B., The Revelation of St John the Divine London: A. and C. Black., 1966, pp. 186f., 260.

Additionally, the Church of England's Doctrine Commission reported in 1995 that "[h]ell is not eternal torment", but "non-being". Some Protestant and Anglican writers have also proposed annihilationist doctrines.

The ancient Aramaic paraphrase-translations of the Hebrew Bible supply the term "Gehinnom" frequently to verses touching upon resurrection, judgment, and the fate of the wicked. This may also include addition of the phrase "second death", as in the final chapter of the Book of Isaiah, where the Hebrew version does not mention either Gehinnom or the Second Death, whereas the Targums add both. In this the Targums are parallel to the Gospel of Mark addition of "Gehenna" to the quotation of the Isaiah verses describing the corpses "where their worm does not die"
McNamara, Targums and Testament, ISBN 978-0716506195

There is evidence however that the southwest shoulder of this valley (Ketef Hinnom) was a burial location with numerous burial chambers that were reused by generations of families from as early as the seventh until the fifth century BCE. The use of this area for tombs continued into the first centuries BCE and CE.

By 70 CE, the area was not only a burial site but also a place for cremation of the dead with the arrival of the Tenth Roman Legion, who were the only group known to practice cremation in this region.
Gabriel Barkay, "The Riches of Ketef Hinnom." Biblical Archaeological Review 35:4-5 (2005): 22–35, 122–26.

In the synoptic gospels Jesus uses the word Gehenna 11 times to describe the opposite to life in the Kingdom (Mark 9:43-48).[29] It is a place where both soul and body could be destroyed (Matthew 10:28: "....rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in, 'Gehenna.'".

αποτομη, ης, η a cutting off: & αποτομια, ας, η, seveity: fr. αποτομος, ο, η, abrupt, cut or broken off ; by metaph. severe: Hence, αποτομως, adv. severely, precisely
Page 79 English and Greek Lexicon Page 22 Cutting, τομη, τομηα: by cutting, off, αποτομη

The word "severity" now suggests sometimes the idea of harshness, or even of cruelty. (Webster.) But nothing of this kind is conveyed in the original word here. It properly denotes "cutting off," αποτομίαν apotomian from αποτέμνω apotemnō, to cut off; and is commonly applied to the act of the gardener or vine-dresser in trimming trees or vines, and cutting off the decayed or useless branches.

Here it refers to the act of God in cutting off or rejecting the useless branches; and conveys no idea of injustice, cruelty, or harshness. It was a just act, and consistent with all the perfections of God. It indicated a purpose to do what was right, though the inflictions might seem to be severe, and though they must involve them in many heavy calamities.
G5114 Swords of the Soul and Spirit – Scribd tomōteros tom-o'-ter-os Compound of a derivative of the primary word τεμνω temnō (to cut; more comprehensive or decisive than G2875

The term severity αποτομια [Strong's G663], from απο [Strong's G575], from, and τεμνω, to cut off, properly denotes excision, cutting off, as the gardener cuts off, with a pruning knife, dead boughs, or luxuriant stems.
Treasury of Scripture Knowledge

Commentary on the Bible, Adam Clarke “but it was severity, αποτομια, an act of excision, Rom 11:1;
Deu 7:10 And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy [אבד ] them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.
Spec, a) Of things, to destroy, to lay waste, 2 K. 19, 18. Num. 33, 52. Deut. 12, 2. ) to waste one's substance, Prov. 29, 3. b) Of men, to destroy, to kill, to put to death,
Esth. 3, 9. 13. 2 K. 11, 1. 13, 7. to destroy, to cut off, as men and nations, Deut. 7, 10. 8, 20 ; Lev. 23, 30 ; Deut. 7, 24 ; also of a land, to lay waste, Zeph. 2, 5 ;

It is God who controls life and excision from life:
destroying angel 2 Sam. 24. 16, and the destroyer Ex. 12, 23, i. e. the angel of God who inflicts calamities and death upon men;
comp.1 Chr. 21, 12. Jer. 51, 1 Page 1053

Job 14, 19. Very rarely the quiescent X in 1 pers. fut. is dropped, as in Jer. 46, 8.
Deriv. Chald. fut. to perish. Jer. 10, 11. Aph. to destroy, to cut off, Dan. 2, 12. 18^ 24.
after the Heb. minner, Dan. 7, li.Participial noun, destruction, Num. 24, 20. 24. See Lehrg. p. 488.
2. place of destruction, abyss, i. e. Sheol, Hades, Prov. 27, 20 Chethibh. "m. 1. destruction, Job 31, 12. 2. place of destruction, abyss, nearly synon. with Job 26, 6. 28, 22. Prov. 15, 11
m. verbal of Piel for without Dag. lene in destruction, slaughter, Esth. 9, 5. id. destruction death, Esth. 8, 6. Page 3. 4

Job 42:11 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him:

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall pay the penalty with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power

You and Da are cut and paste kings. Read my last post to you. You're doing exactly the same thing again...like the time before...and the time before...and the time before...

The preachers who suggest God will torture someone physically forever fall into that hypocrite class.

Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Mat 23:15 `Woe to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye go round the sea and the dry land to make one a convert, and whenever it may happen--ye make him a son of gehenna twofold more than yourselves

 

[Der Alte]

Yes, brother it does. It says it where I posted it in Rev 20 I cut and pasted it here earlier and you are intentionally ignoring it.

14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

If your thrown in the lake of fire you go through the second death. If your dead you are dead. Sinners are not granted eternal life.

1 Cor 15: 52 It will take but a moment, the blink of an eye, at the final shofar. For the shofar will sound, and the dead will be raised to live forever, and we too will be changed. 53 For this material which can decay must be clothed with imperishability, this which is mortal must be clothed with immortality. 54 When what decays puts on imperishability and what is mortal puts on immortality, then this passage in the Tanakh will be fulfilled:

Hence without Yeshua the human being has corruptable bodies and CAN NOT partake of or posses immortality. If one is not clothed in or posses immortality but its very nature is mortal. Unsaved mortals cast in to the LOF will be killed and utterly consumed.

You can tell me you think Im wrong all you want but that is what scripture says.

I addressed Revelation and the lake of fire in [post=65922280]Post # 179[/post] As I said it does not say what you think it does. Please extend me the simple courtesy of reading my posts and responding to them, as I have done, rather than telling me what I have not done.

 

[Der Alte]

Isa. 14: 7. "The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing. 8.Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us. 9. Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. 10. All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?"

So next you'll be saying that fir trees and cedars actually speak (sing) ??
__________________

There is an old maxim about interpreting scripture, "If the plain sense makes good sense then it is nonsense to look for any other sense." The converse of that is "If the plain does not make good sense, then it is good sense to look for another sense, i.e. figurative." As you have correctly implied trees do not sing or speak, thus that verse is figurative. But since we have no direct knowledge of what happens after death, when God Himself said the dead in sheol move, speak, have knowledge, feel emotions etc. there is no compelling reason to consider that figurative. Let me know the next time you want some face time.

 

[Der Alte]

Lets approach this from a different angle.

Gen 2:15 Adonai, God, took the person and put him in the garden of ‘Eden to cultivate and care for it. 16 Adonai, God, gave the person this order: “You may freely eat from every tree in the garden 17 except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. You are not to eat from it, because on the day that you eat from it, it will become certain that you will die."

Sin=Death not life, not partial life but DEATH.

Gen 3 Now the serpent was more crafty than any wild animal which Adonai, God, had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You are not to eat from any tree in the garden’?” 2 The woman answered the serpent, “We may eat from the fruit of the trees of the garden, 3 but about the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden God said, ‘You are neither to eat from it nor touch it, or you will die.’” 4 The serpent said to the woman, “It is not true that you will surely die; 5 because God knows that on the day you eat from it, your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” 6 When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it had a pleasing appearance and that the tree was desirable for making one wise, she took some of its fruit and ate. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her; and he ate.

This is the lie Satan has been selling mankind from the very beginning. Yeshua said that when he said in John 8:44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

What happened to Adam and Eve in the day that they ate of the fruit? God said that in the day you eat of the fruit dying you shall die. But they did not literally, physically die they continued to live for many more years and had children. So we have to understand that death has more than one meaning.

I would argue the beginning Yeshua is speaking of is found in Genesis when Satan lied to Eve about death.

You might be right.

IF you believe that any part of man is immortal (meaning he or she does not die) you contradict what G-d said to Adam, you AGREE with Satan when he told Eve that she would not die, that G-d is a liar because he is keeping things from you ( in the case of Eve it was the knowledge of good and evil.)

I believe scripture. Not just a few out-of-copntext verses which seem to prove a particular viewpoint.

Romans tells us the wages of Sin are DEATH. When you die you, are, dead! Paul DID NOT comfort believers who were worried about the saints that had "fallen asleep" by telling them that they were in heaven. NO! He told them that they would be raised from the dead upon Yeshua's return.

I am aware of Rom 6:23 but there are a few more relevant verses.

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:​

All mankind has sinned, all mankind will die, all mankind will face the white throne judgment although they were all dead.

Unbelievers are raised to face the final white throne judgement do not have ETERNAL LIFE. In order for them to have punishment that is eternal torment in Hell they would have to have eternal life. The wages of sin are death both physical and spiritual ETERNALLY.

Which scripture says "The wages of sin are death both physical and spiritual ETERNALLY?" Everybody will die but not everyone will die both physically and spiritually eternally.

Rom 6:23 says "For the wages of sin is death" But it does not say the wages of sin is death, resurrection, judgement and second death.

The problem I have is you are trying to skirt the issue... the issue is WHO has eternal life? Only the believer is granted eternal life. Those who reject Yeshua are granted their reward... ETERNAL DEATH

Please cite the scripture for "eternal death?" I'm not skirting anything, all I do is quote scripture.

 

[Evergreen48]

There is an old maxim about interpreting scripture, "If the plain sense makes good sense then it is nonsense to look for any other sense." The converse of that is "If the plain does not make good sense, then it is good sense to look for another sense, i.e. figurative." As you have correctly implied trees do not sing or speak, thus that verse is figurative. But since we have no direct knowledge of what happens after death, when God Himself said the dead in sheol move, speak, have knowledge, feel emotions etc. there is no compelling reason to consider that figurative. Let me know the next time you want some face time.

That resembles THE GOLDEN RULE OF INTERPRETATION, but actually that one goes like this:
"When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise."

There is no established literary converse to this rule. And frankly, I don't think you are quite ready for the role of "maxim maker".
Verses 7, 8, 9, 10 and 11 are all in one frame. If one is taken in the metaphoric sense then common sense dictates that all should be taken in the metaphoric or parabolic sense. Only someone who has the silly notion that the dead are not really dead; that they still think, feel, act and speak, would take this literally. (I suppose you believe in ghosts
too? )

As you have correctly implied trees do not sing or speak, thus that verse is figurative. But since we have no direct knowledge of what happens after death, when God Himself said the dead in sheol move, speak, have knowledge, feel emotions etc. there is no compelling reason to consider that figurative.

Where is it recorded that God himself said that the dead in sheol move, speak, have knowledge , feel emotions etc. ? God told Isaiah to speak this PARABLE or PROVERB. (in verse 4 it is recorded that Israel shall take up the PROVERB against the king of Babylon.)

If you believe that God himself said this proverb to the people, then how is it that you don't believe that we have any direct knowledge of what happens after death. Wouldn't that be considered direct knowledge from God? The last time I looked the scripture plainly reports that when a person dies, their body returns to the dust from which they came, and the spirit (breath) returns to God who gave it.

Let me know the next time you want some face time.

What may I ask is "face time"? Is that something like Shackley or HerbalLife products that you are selling? If it is of that nature, then I'm good at this time, thank you. IOW, I don't need face time at this time. . But thanks anyway.

 

[Timothew]

There is an old maxim about interpreting scripture, "If the plain sense makes good sense then it is nonsense to look for any other sense."

Romans 6:23 says "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord".

The plain sense of this is that the penalty for sin is death, not eternal torment or torture in hell. This makes good sense, as the Bible says that the wicked will be destroyed. It is nonsense to look for any other sense, such as "Death doesn't really mean death, somehow it means eternal consciousness in torment in hell".

If the plain sense makes good sense it is nonsense to look for any other sense.

 

[BukiRob]

Romans 6:23 says "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord".

The plain sense of this is that the penalty for sin is death, not eternal torment or torture in hell. This makes good sense, as the Bible says that the wicked will be destroyed. It is nonsense to look for any other sense, such as "Death doesn't really mean death, somehow it means eternal consciousness in torment in hell".

If the plain sense makes good sense it is nonsense to look for any other sense.

Amen! The one problem they have with this doctrine of error is that they can not answer the question regarding eternal life. Eternal Life is the gift of G-d to the BELIEVER. Those who reject G-ds plan of redemption do not recieve or partake of eternal life.

If it is a gift, by rational deduction we do not have it as any part of our being. Thus when you are dead there is no part of you that is alive. When the unbelievers are resurrected to judgement they are not granted eternal life scripture plainly states that the Lake of Fire is the second death and that those whose names are not found in the book of life are cast into it... hence unbeleivers undergo the second death... death does NOT equal any part of life

 

[Der Alte]

That resembles THE GOLDEN RULE OF INTERPRETATION, but actually that one goes like this:
"When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise."

There is no established literary converse to this rule. And frankly, I don't think you are quite ready for the role of "maxim maker".

Disengenuous accusation, I never claimed to be a maxim maker. The final clause is the converse. If the stated conditions dictate then a word/verse is figurative.

Verses 7, 8, 9, 10 and 11 are all in one frame. If one is taken in the metaphoric sense then common sense dictates that all should be taken in the metaphoric or parabolic sense. Only someone who has the silly notion that the dead are not really dead; that they still think, feel, act and speak, would take this literally. (I suppose you believe in ghosts
too? )

Ah yes the same ol' unorthodox doctrinal "figurative/metaphoric/parabolic" cop-out. When scripture as written contradicts a pet doctrine simply blow it off as metaphor, parable, etc. anything but literal. Why do you stop and vss. 7-11? Let us go back and look at the complete context. Your view would have us believe there was no actual literal king of Babylon, vs. 4, this imaginary king did not literally, actually die, vs. 4. Since this metaphoric king did not die he was not buried vs. 9, and the worms did not consume his body. vs. 11. And since this metaphocal king did not live, did not die, was not buried, the people did not actually, literally rejoice at his death. And God did not literally destroy Babylon, vs. 22. But wait, the scripture is only metaphor, parable when it contradicts someone's pet doctrine.

Where is it recorded that God himself said that the dead in sheol move, speak, have knowledge , feel emotions etc. ? God told Isaiah to speak this PARABLE or PROVERB. (in verse 4 it is recorded that Israel shall take up the PROVERB against the king of Babylon.)

And here we have the "parable/proverb" cop-out. As I have shown, you only claim the "parable/proverb cop-out" when scripture contradicts a pet doctrine. And in this case you have ignored the bulk of the chapter. There was a literal, actual king of Babylon, he literally actually died, he was literally actually buried, and the worms literally. actually devoured his body and while this was happening God said "Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, ...it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us? " The ancient Jews understood this to be factual.

Gehenna

When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10

Jewish Encyclopedia Online​

Did Israel become figurative, a parable or metaphor when God said He would make them a משׁל/mashal, in these verses? משׁל/mashal is the same word translated proverb in Isa 14:4. Or did they remain a literal, factual people but were an object of ridicule and scorn?

Deu 28:37 And thou shalt become an astonishment, a proverb, [משׁל/mashal] and a byword, among all nations whither the LORD shall lead thee.

1Ki 9:7 Then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for my name, will I cast out of my sight; and Israel shall be a proverb [משׁל/mashal] and a byword among all people:

2Ch 7:20 Then will I pluck them up by the roots out of my land which I have given them; and this house, which I have sanctified for my name, will I cast out of my sight, and will make it to be a proverb [משׁל/mashal] and a byword among all nations.

Psa 44:14 Thou makest us a byword [משׁל/mashal] among the heathen, a shaking of the head among the people.

Jer 24:9 And I will deliver them to be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth for their hurt, to be a reproach and a proverb [משׁל/mashal], a taunt and a curse, in all places whither I shall drive them.​

If you believe that God himself said this proverb to the people, then how is it that you don't believe that we have any direct knowledge of what happens after death. Wouldn't that be considered direct knowledge from God? The last time I looked the scripture plainly reports that when a person dies, their body returns to the dust from which they came, and the spirit (breath) returns to God who gave it.

We know from our natural senses, our own experience, the experience of others that trees don't sing or shout. But we don't have any such experiential knowledge of post death. You have alluded to some scriptures. I quoted scripture. I take them at face value unless it can be proved not just assumed that they are not literal. I have not seen such proof and I suspect I never will.

What may I ask is "face time"? Is that something like Shackley or HerbalLife products that you are selling? If it is of that nature, then I'm good at this time, thank you. IOW, I don't need face time at this time. . But thanks anyway.

Read Gal 2:11 re: face time.

 

[Der Alte]

Duplicate post

 

[Der Alte]

Amen! The one problem they have with this doctrine of error is that they can not answer the question regarding eternal life. Eternal Life is the gift of G-d to the BELIEVER. Those who reject G-ds plan of redemption do not recieve or partake of eternal life.

If it is a gift, by rational deduction we do not have it as any part of our being. Thus when you are dead there is no part of you that is alive. When the unbelievers are resurrected to judgement they are not granted eternal life scripture plainly states that the Lake of Fire is the second death and that those whose names are not found in the book of life are cast into it... hence unbeleivers undergo the second death... death does NOT equal any part of life

There are three words for life in Greek, psuche, bios, and zoe. Only zoe is associated with eternal, as in eternal life. I have posted three passages of scripture which show the dead moving, thinking, speaking etc. The only argument presented is "Nuh Uh, those are all figurative."

There is no second death, where people die a second time and/or are destroyed, annihilated.

The wages of sin is death. But all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, and it is appointed unto man[kind] once to die after that the judgment. Everybody has sinned, all mankind will die. All mankind will face the final judgment. The wages of sin is death but the scripture does not say the wages of sin is death, resurrection, the judgment then a second death.

The lake of fire [LOF] is called the second death but when we say the second death is the lake of fire then it removes dying from the equation. Not one scripture in the Bible says the unrighteous are thrown into the LOF then they die. Just the opposite. Three living beings are thrown into the LOF but they do not die they are tormented for ever and ever. One of those beings is a person, the false prophet.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

Being thrown into the LOF does not result in instantaneous death. So the second death/LOF is not synonymous with death or annihilation.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

*snip*.........

G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:

“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators,
that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)

The Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna is a myth - Archaeology, Biblical History & Textual Criticism - Bible Truth Discussion Forum
​

According to Josephus, approx 1.1 million Jews died in Jerusalem during the 5 month siege.
What was done with all of rubble, rubbish and especially with all of those dead bodies?

I had this rather unique view of OC Jerusalem symbolizing the LoF, because Jesus only brought that word up when talking to them in the Gospels .....IMHO

http://www.christianforums.com/t7434988/
OC Jerusalem and Lake of Fire

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

This memorable siege terminated on the eighth day of the ninth month, A. D. 70 : its duration was nearly five months, the Romans having invested the city on the fourteenth day of the fourth month, preceeding.

Before their final demolition, however, Titus took, a. survey of the city and its fortifications ; and, while contemplating their impregnable strength, could not help ascribing his success to the peculiar interposition of the ALMIGHTY HIMSELF. "Had not God himself (exclaimed he) aided out operations, and driven the Jews from their fortresses, it would have been absolutely impossible to have taken them............................

Of the Jews destroyed during the siege, Josephus reckons not less than ONE MILLION AND ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND,
to which must be added, above TWO-HUNDRED AND THIRTY-SEVEN THOUSAND who perished in other places, and innumerable multitudes who were swept away by famine, and pestilence, and of which no calculation could be made.
Not less than two thousand laid violent hands upon themselves.
Of the captives the whole was about NINETY-SEVEN THOUSAND................

Ezekiel mentions 7 months cleaning /purifying the land after that destruction:

Ezekiel 39:12
And house of Israel entomb them so that to Cleanse/Purify the Land Seven Months.
And all of people of the Land entomb them,
and He becomes to them for a Name, Day of to be glorified Me, declaration of my Lord YAHWEH

Matthew 23:33
Serpents generation/gennhmata <1081> of vipers how ye may be fleeing from the judging of the geennhV



.

 

[Der Alte]

According to Josephus, approx 1.1 million Jews died in Jerusalem during the 5 month siege.
What was done with all of rubble, rubbish and especially with all of those dead bodies?

This was about 30 years after Jesus lived. So His reference to burning, Gehenna where the fire is not quenched, etc. could not refer to the Roman invasion.

I had this rather unique view of OC Jerusalem symbolizing the LoF, because Jesus only brought that word up when talking to them in the Gospels .....IMHO

http://www.christianforums.com/t7434988/
OC Jerusalem and Lake of Fire

If the lake of fire represents Jerusalem what does the beast, false prophet, the devil, death and hell, whosoever not found written in the book of life, fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, all being thrown into the LOF represent?

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

This memorable siege terminated on the eighth day of the ninth month, A. D. 70 : its duration was nearly five months, the Romans having invested the city on the fourteenth day of the fourth month, preceeding.

Before their final demolition, however, Titus took, a. survey of the city and its fortifications ; and, while contemplating their impregnable strength, could not help ascribing his success to the peculiar interposition of the ALMIGHTY HIMSELF. "Had not God himself (exclaimed he) aided out operations, and driven the Jews from their fortresses, it would have been absolutely impossible to have taken them............................

Of the Jews destroyed during the siege, Josephus reckons not less than ONE MILLION AND ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND,
to which must be added, above TWO-HUNDRED AND THIRTY-SEVEN THOUSAND who perished in other places, and innumerable multitudes who were swept away by famine, and pestilence, and of which no calculation could be made.
Not less than two thousand laid violent hands upon themselves.
Of the captives the whole was about NINETY-SEVEN THOUSAND................

Ezekiel mentions 7 months cleaning /purifying the land after that destruction:

Ezekiel 39:12
And house of Israel entomb them so that to Cleanse/Purify the Land Seven Months.
And all of people of the Land entomb them,
and He becomes to them for a Name, Day of to be glorified Me, declaration of my Lord YAHWEH

Matthew 23:33
Serpents generation/gennhmata <1081> of vipers how ye may be fleeing from the judging of the geennhV

Interesting.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

This memorable siege terminated on the eighth day of the ninth month, A. D. 70 : its duration was nearly five months, the Romans having invested the city on the fourteenth day of the fourth month, preceeding.

Before their final demolition, however, Titus took, a. survey of the city and its fortifications ; and, while contemplating their impregnable strength, could not help ascribing his success to the peculiar interposition of the ALMIGHTY HIMSELF. "Had not God himself (exclaimed he) aided out operations, and driven the Jews from their fortresses, it would have been absolutely impossible to have taken them............................

Of the Jews destroyed during the siege, Josephus reckons not less than ONE MILLION AND ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND,
to which must be added, above TWO-HUNDRED AND THIRTY-SEVEN THOUSAND who perished in other places, and innumerable multitudes who were swept away by famine, and pestilence, and of which no calculation could be made..............
Ezekiel mentions 7 months cleaning /purifying the land after that destruction:

Ezekiel 39:12
And house of Israel entomb them so that to Cleanse/Purify the Land Seven Months.
And all of people of the Land entomb them,
and He becomes to them for a Name, Day of to be glorified Me, declaration of my Lord YAHWEH

Matthew 23:33
Serpents generation/gennhmata <1081> of vipers!
how ye may be fleeing from the judging of the geennhV

Interesting.

What is interesting is that is the event of Gog/Magog after the 1000yr period.

I believe Armeggeddon and Gog/Magog are 1 and the same events occuring in Israel and especially around Jerusalem/Judea.

If 1 of them is fulfilled, then both are and why the Amill views held among a majority of Christianity doesn't make sense. IMHO

http://www.christianforums.com/t7413416/
Armegeddon/Gog-Magog same event?




.

 

[createdtoworship]

His view is very accurate in quoting the jewish encyclopedia, I have found another source that validates that one.

Simcha Paull Raphael is adjunct assistant professor in Jewish Studies at Temple University, is a spiritual director at Reconstructionist Rabbinical College, Rabbinic Pastor, ordination by Rabbi Zalman Schachter-Shalomi, Adjunct Faculty, Department of Religion, La Salle University, Philadelphia, Pa., Spiritual Director (1999-2009, Ph.D., Psychology, California Institute of Integral Studies, San Francisco, Ca.

and he states that gehennah was in fact more than simply a garbage dump, (which actually is innacurate to say the least- as there is no evidence of garbage in the valley of hinnom) anyways...

according to jewish tradition there were seven levels/names of gehennah, and one of them was sheol. ANyway here is an excerpt of it while he quotes from the traditional texts of the apocrypha to gain context and bearings of this tradition:

" Sheol as a Realm of Torturous Punishment


Associated with Sheol in this period of Jewish history are very strong, harsh images of punishment, affliction, and torment. Sheol never appears as a desirable place to be; it is usually rather dreadful. In the texts of the Apocrypha, we find a proliferation of depictions of torture, punishment, darkness, fire, burning, and so on. The Book of Enoch, interestingly enough, is a precursor to an entire genre of literature&#8212;referred to as &#8220;Tours of Hell&#8221;32&#8212;that describes with vivid detail the torments and punishments of the underworlds. In the &#8220;tour of hell&#8221; given to our antediluvian hero of 1 Enoch, Sheol is unequivocally a realm of postmortem punishment, and it is described with far more imaginative detail than anything we have observed thus far in Jewish afterlife literature.
First Enoch 54, for example, describes how on &#8220;the great day of judgment&#8221; even lofty rulers will be subjected to burning fire, imprisonment chains, and iron fetters of immense weight before finally being cast into the abyss of complete condemnation (1 Enoch 54:1-6).
Elsewhere we encounter a similar negative fate ascribed to those souls condemned to Sheol: &#8220;Woe unto you sinners who are dead! ... You yourselves know that they will bring your souls down to Sheol; and they shall experience evil and great tribulation&#8212;in darkness, nets and burning flame&#8221; (1 Enoch 103:7).
Other Images of Gehenna/Sheol


While there is a diverse collection of horrific images associated with Sheol at this point, we do not yet see any comprehensive structural pattern in place. The well-developed &#8220;Tour of Hell&#8221; motif, which comes into place somewhat later, is in a nascent state at this time. However, to understand the historical evolution of afterlife teachings, it is useful to observe and to catalog recurring motifs and themes of postmortem torment in this period which bridges biblical and rabbinic Judaism. Thus, the following passages from 1 Enoch illustrate the landscape of the underworld in the apocryphal era.
Fire and Burning


In numerous places Gehenna is described as an &#8220;abyss... full of fire (1 Enoch 90:26ff.) or a place where there is &#8220;a burning worse than fire&#8221; (1 Enoch 100:9).
We find more of these images of fire and burning in a section of 1 Enoch (chapters 91-104) dating from the early first century C.E.,33 which speaks of Sheol/Gehenna as follows:
Therefore they shall be wanting in doctrine and wisdom, And they shall perish thereby together with their possessions. And with all their glory and their splendour, and in shame and in slaughter and in great destitution, their spirits shall be cast into the furnace of fire. (1 Enoch 98:3)
In a similar vein, 1 Enoch 90 describes how the fallen angels and shepherds are subjected to judgment and condemnation to burning by fire:
And behold, they were all bound, I saw, and they all stood before Him. And the judgment was held... and they were judged and found guilty, and went to the place of condemnation, and they were cast into an abyss, full of fire and flaming, full of pillars of fire. And those seventy shepherds were judged and found guilty, and they were cast into that fiery abyss. And I saw at that time how a like fire of abyss was opened in the midst of the earth, full of fire, and they were judged and found guilty and cast into this fiery abyss, and they burned.... (1 Enoch 90:23-26)"

above from:

Raphael, Simcha Paull; Raphael, Simcha Paull (6/15/2009). Jewish Views of the Afterlife (p. 43). Rowman & Littlefield Publishers. Kindle Edition.

now, granted sheol, gehennah was only a prison for 12 months according to jewish tradition, some people got eternal hell:

"However, rabbinic literature does assert that certain classes of sinners are eternally condemned to Gehenna. In particular, heretics, informers, and scoffers (Hebrew: epikorsim), as well as people who have rejected the words of Torah and denied the belief in the resurrection, are sentenced to Gehenna &#8220;for all generations&#8221; (Rosh Ha-Shanah 17a). Another tradition maintains that only &#8220;one who commits adultery with a married woman, publicly shames his neighbor, or fastens an evil epithet upon his neighbor&#8221; descends to Gehenna and never reascends (Baba Metzia 58b)."


above from:

Raphael, Simcha Paull; Raphael, Simcha Paull (6/15/2009). Jewish Views of the Afterlife. Rowman & Littlefield Publishers. Kindle Edition.


so it was this context of rabbinical settings that Jesus came and said, "hey you know gehennah? The one the scribes talk about? It is that place that even liars will go to, and it's duration will be forever! NOTE: I don't take the rabinnical view that Hell is torture, I take it literally as the KJV states - torment (more on that difference later)


P.S. Hey der alter do you have more references to Jewish tradition on the eternal class of Gehennah? I read a post of yours that had some more ref's, but I forgot which it was.

 

[Der Alte]

His view is very accurate in quoting the jewish encyclopedia, I have found another source that validates that one.

Simcha Paull Raphael is adjunct assistant professor in Jewish Studies at Temple University, is a spiritual director at Reconstructionist Rabbinical College

and he states that gehennah was in fact more than simply a garbage dump, (which actually is innacurate to say the least- as there is no evidence of garbage in the valley of hinnom) anyways...

according to jewish tradition there were seven levels/names of gehennah, and one of them was sheol. ANyway here is an excerpt of it while he quotes from the traditional texts of the apocrypha to gain context and bearings of this tradition:

" Sheol as a Realm of Torturous Punishment


Associated with Sheol in this period of Jewish history are very strong, harsh images of punishment, affliction, and torment. Sheol never appears as a desirable place to be; it is usually rather dreadful. In the texts of the Apocrypha, we find a proliferation of depictions of torture, punishment, darkness, fire, burning, and so on. The Book of Enoch, interestingly enough, is a precursor to an entire genre of literature—referred to as “Tours of Hell”32—that describes with vivid detail the torments and punishments of the underworlds. In the “tour of hell” given to our antediluvian hero of 1 Enoch, Sheol is unequivocally a realm of postmortem punishment, and it is described with far more imaginative detail than anything we have observed thus far in Jewish afterlife literature.
First Enoch 54, for example, describes how on “the great day of judgment” even lofty rulers will be subjected to burning fire, imprisonment chains, and iron fetters of immense weight before finally being cast into the abyss of complete condemnation (1 Enoch 54:1-6).
Elsewhere we encounter a similar negative fate ascribed to those souls condemned to Sheol: “Woe unto you sinners who are dead! ... You yourselves know that they will bring your souls down to Sheol; and they shall experience evil and great tribulation—in darkness, nets and burning flame” (1 Enoch 103:7).
Other Images of Gehenna/Sheol


While there is a diverse collection of horrific images associated with Sheol at this point, we do not yet see any comprehensive structural pattern in place. The well-developed “Tour of Hell” motif, which comes into place somewhat later, is in a nascent state at this time. However, to understand the historical evolution of afterlife teachings, it is useful to observe and to catalog recurring motifs and themes of postmortem torment in this period which bridges biblical and rabbinic Judaism. Thus, the following passages from 1 Enoch illustrate the landscape of the underworld in the apocryphal era.
Fire and Burning


In numerous places Gehenna is described as an “abyss... full of fire (1 Enoch 90:26ff.) or a place where there is “a burning worse than fire” (1 Enoch 100:9).
We find more of these images of fire and burning in a section of 1 Enoch (chapters 91-104) dating from the early first century C.E.,33 which speaks of Sheol/Gehenna as follows:
Therefore they shall be wanting in doctrine and wisdom, And they shall perish thereby together with their possessions. And with all their glory and their splendour, and in shame and in slaughter and in great destitution, their spirits shall be cast into the furnace of fire. (1 Enoch 98:3)
In a similar vein, 1 Enoch 90 describes how the fallen angels and shepherds are subjected to judgment and condemnation to burning by fire:
And behold, they were all bound, I saw, and they all stood before Him. And the judgment was held... and they were judged and found guilty, and went to the place of condemnation, and they were cast into an abyss, full of fire and flaming, full of pillars of fire. And those seventy shepherds were judged and found guilty, and they were cast into that fiery abyss. And I saw at that time how a like fire of abyss was opened in the midst of the earth, full of fire, and they were judged and found guilty and cast into this fiery abyss, and they burned.... (1 Enoch 90:23-26)"

above from:

Raphael, Simcha Paull; Raphael, Simcha Paull (6/15/2009). Jewish Views of the Afterlife (p. 43). Rowman & Littlefield Publishers. Kindle Edition.

now, granted sheol, gehennah was only a prison for 12 months according to jewish tradition, some people got eternal hell:

"However, rabbinic literature does assert that certain classes of sinners are eternally condemned to Gehenna. In particular, heretics, informers, and scoffers (Hebrew: epikorsim), as well as people who have rejected the words of Torah and denied the belief in the resurrection, are sentenced to Gehenna “for all generations” (Rosh Ha-Shanah 17a). Another tradition maintains that only “one who commits adultery with a married woman, publicly shames his neighbor, or fastens an evil epithet upon his neighbor” descends to Gehenna and never reascends (Baba Metzia 58b)."


above from:

Raphael, Simcha Paull; Raphael, Simcha Paull (6/15/2009). Jewish Views of the Afterlife. Rowman & Littlefield Publishers. Kindle Edition.


so it was this context of rabbinical settings that Jesus came and said, "hey you know gehennah? The one the scribes talk about? It is that place that even liars will go to, and it's duration will be forever! NOTE: I don't take the rabinnical view that Hell is torture, I take it literally as the KJV states - torment (more on that difference later)


P.S. Hey der alter do you have more references to Jewish tradition on the eternal class of Gehennah? I read a post of yours that had some more ref's, but I forgot which it was.

I also quote from the Talmud. It is available at two sites come and hear which is downloadable and sacredtexts which is online only. The Talmud at come and hear is fully searchable

 

[createdtoworship]

I also quote from the Talmud. It is available at two sites come and hear which is downloadable and sacredtexts which is online only. The Talmud at come and hear is fully searchable

interesting...

talmud represents the central text of rabbinical era of judaism. It would be good for me to download it, do you have a link? Thank you.

 

[CherubRam]

Romans 6:23 says "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord".

The plain sense of this is that the penalty for sin is death, not eternal torment or torture in hell. This makes good sense, as the Bible says that the wicked will be destroyed. It is nonsense to look for any other sense, such as "Death doesn't really mean death, somehow it means eternal consciousness in torment in hell".

If the plain sense makes good sense it is nonsense to look for any other sense.

Romans 6:23 says "For the wages of sin is death,