Hell

[he-man]

So just as ash "survives" after the chaff is burnt up, people survive as ash after they have been destroyed in Gehenna?

No, I do not prove your point. Ash has no consciousness, so people can't be conscious of eternal conscious torment because their "ash" remains. Honestly that is just about the worst argument for eternal conscious torment in hell that I have ever heard.

I would assume he does not know what happens to dust?Psa 30:9 What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? shall it declare thy truth?

Isa_5:24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.

Hos 13:3 Therefore they shall be as the morning cloud, and as the early dew that passeth away, as the chaff driven with the whirlwind out of the threshing-floor, and as the smoke out of the chimney.

Ps 1:4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.

Deuteronomy 12:30 take heed to yourself that you are not ensnared to follow them, after they are destroyed from before you, and that you do not inquire after their gods, saying, "How did these nations serve their gods? I also will do likewise."

(31) You shall not worship the LORD your God in that way; for every abomination to the LORD which He hates they have done to their gods; for they burn even their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods.

Matthew 15:9 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.""

Ps 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

None of us are saying that when the lost are destroyed there will not possibly be a little ash that remains. The ash is not proof that the lost are tormented alive forever in hell when they die.

I'm sorry that your father died, but you can take comfort in the fact that your father will live again when he is resurrected from the dead when Jesus Christ returns. You don't need to grieve as others do who have no hope of the resurrection. Jesus will return and raise the dead and all of us who have put our faith in Jesus Christ will be together with Him.

But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord,d that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words.​

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

Our hope is in Christ, our hope is for resurrection from death to eternal life when Jesus returns. Our hope is sure, because He is the Lord. I hope that you can take comfort and be encouraged by these words. Jesus Christ is able to make the dead alive again. There are many examples in the Gospels of this. He is willing and able to bring your father back to life when He returns. May God bless you forever.

Actually some of the folks here posting believe death destroys us all and that any sense of "resurrection" involves everyone "coming back" (odd way to phrase the belief as things which do not exist cannot be said to "come" or "come back" from somewhere). We did not "come back to life" in our mother's wombs, we were created there. A thing either exists or it does not. The idea of "returning" from non-existence is non-sensical, yet this is precisely what is meant to comfort me int the loss of my father.

While the sentiment expressed is appreciated and I am thankful for it, the idea our loved ones who have passed-on no longer exist is a very bleak one. For that matter, in such a dismal view one cannot even speak of someone who is said to have "ceased to exist" as "passing-on" because they have not "gone" somewhere. The thought can only be the dead are no more, just like the claim the burnt chaff is "no more" - utterly destroyed by "death". Hardly comforting thoughts.

So in this odd view of a "resurrection" no one "comes back" after dying, they are believed to be "created" again. And in this same view the only difference between the first death we all experience and the second death of the damned is the belief that the damned never get created again after the second death.

In short this belief says our existence does not have to be a continuous one. We can be imagined as going in and out of existence multiple times while somehow still seeing each period of existence as being the same person. I think I recall having heard of some believing in reincarnation as thinking similarly about each phase of existence.

I suppose we could think of this view death like being teleported for a variable or even infinite period of time. We dematerialize as a "person" at death and God materializes all the dead again for judgement, then dematerializes the damned again. At which point God destroys the teleporter so the damned can never be materialized again and those in Glory can never be dematerialized a second time. How this view of death can have everyone being dematerialized for any length of time qualifying as keeping a promise that some would never experience that is unclear. And it seems to have everyone getting the same punishment the damned do at least one time (assuming God does not rebuild the teleported).

 

[he-man]

While the sentiment expressed is appreciated and I am thankful for it, the idea our loved ones who have passed-on no longer exist is a very bleak one. For that matter, in such a dismal view one cannot even speak of someone who is said to have "ceased to exist" as "passing-on" because they have not "gone" somewhere. The thought can only be the dead are no more, just like the claim the burnt chaff is "no more" - utterly destroyed by "death". Hardly comforting thoughts.

People never want to face the reality and that God sees no need to resurrect those who have already been deemed unfit and refused to believe.

Lev 26:36 And upon them that are left alive of you I will send a faintness into their hearts in the lands of their enemies; and the sound of a shaken leaf shall chase them; and they shall flee, as fleeing from a sword; and they shall fall when none pursueth.

Job 15:21 A dreadful sound is in his ears: in prosperity the destroyer shall come upon him.
Psa 35:5 Let them be as chaff before the wind: and let the angel of the LORD chase them.

Ps 1:4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away. 5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Deuteronomy 12:30 take heed to yourself that you are not ensnared to follow them, after they are destroyed from before you, and that you do not inquire after their gods, saying, "How did these nations serve their gods? I also will do likewise." (31) You shall not worship the LORD your God in that way; for every abomination to the LORD which He hates they have done to their gods; for they burn even their sons and daughters in the [HELL] fire to their gods.

Matthew 15:9 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.""

Before you died you had your chance and if you refused, it is too late. You should have oil in your lamp when the bridegroom comes because the door will be shut, if you do not.

Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

Ps 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

People never want to face the reality and that God sees no need to resurrect those who have already been deemed unfit and refused to believe.

Did not realize anyone here knew my father, much less able to judge him unfit for resurrection. If he were here to defend himself I would expect he would have some choice words for someone cut and pasting such trash everywhere. Would also expect such from a fan of Jack Chic or people taking comic character names.

However, my point was not that the damned are not "resurrected" at all in the annihilationist's view. The point was some of those annihilationist actually believe we are ALL annihilated at death, then everyone "resurrected" with some never to be annihilated again, others to be annihilated a second time and never to be "resurrected" again. The reply of which I snipped above does not approach responding to this point, which is why I typically ignore this poster - but since he condemns my father to hell I thought it worthy of a response.

 

[CherubRam]

I would assume he does not know what happens to dust?Psa 30:9 What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? shall it declare thy truth?

Isa_5:24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.

Hos 13:3 Therefore they shall be as the morning cloud, and as the early dew that passeth away, as the chaff driven with the whirlwind out of the threshing-floor, and as the smoke out of the chimney.

Ps 1:4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.

Deuteronomy 12:30 take heed to yourself that you are not ensnared to follow them, after they are destroyed from before you, and that you do not inquire after their gods, saying, "How did these nations serve their gods? I also will do likewise."

(31) You shall not worship the LORD your God in that way; for every abomination to the LORD which He hates they have done to their gods; for they burn even their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods.

Matthew 15:9 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.""

Ps 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

If they still do not get it, then you are wasting your time and effort.

 

[Timothew]

Actually some of the folks here posting believe death destroys us all and that any sense of "resurrection" involves everyone "coming back" (odd way to phrase the belief as things which do not exist cannot be said to "come" or "come back" from somewhere). We did not "come back to life" in our mother's wombs, we were created there. A thing either exists or it does not. The idea of "returning" from non-existence is non-sensical, yet this is precisely what is meant to comfort me int the loss of my father.

While the sentiment expressed is appreciated and I am thankful for it, the idea our loved ones who have passed-on no longer exist is a very bleak one. For that matter, in such a dismal view one cannot even speak of someone who is said to have "ceased to exist" as "passing-on" because they have not "gone" somewhere. The thought can only be the dead are no more, just like the claim the burnt chaff is "no more" - utterly destroyed by "death". Hardly comforting thoughts.

So in this odd view of a "resurrection" no one "comes back" after dying, they are believed to be "created" again. And in this same view the only difference between the first death we all experience and the second death of the damned is the belief that the damned never get created again after the second death.

In short this belief says our existence does not have to be a continuous one. We can be imagined as going in and out of existence multiple times while somehow still seeing each period of existence as being the same person. I think I recall having heard of some believing in reincarnation as thinking similarly about each phase of existence.

I suppose we could think of this view death like being teleported for a variable or even infinite period of time. We dematerialize as a "person" at death and God materializes all the dead again for judgement, then dematerializes the damned again. At which point God destroys the teleporter so the damned can never be materialized again and those in Glory can never be dematerialized a second time. How this view of death can have everyone being dematerialized for any length of time qualifying as keeping a promise that some would never experience that is unclear. And it seems to have everyone getting the same punishment the damned do at least one time (assuming God does not rebuild the teleported).

Thanks Doc,
Since the death of Christians is only temporary (in my view, I think it is a Biblical View) until Christ returns, at that time they will be fully alive again; I miss my Mom and Dad while they are dead, but we will be reunited on the last day when they are resurrected from death. In this way, death has lost it's sting.

 

[he-man]

Did not realize anyone here knew my father

And now the rest of the story; your words, not mine :

While the sentiment expressed is appreciated and I am thankful for it, the idea our loved ones who have passed-on no longer exist is a very bleak one. For that matter, in such a dismal view one cannot even speak of someone who is said to have "ceased to exist" as "passing-on" because they have not "gone" somewhere. The thought can only be the dead are no more, just like the claim the burnt chaff is "no more" - utterly destroyed by "death". Hardly comforting thoughts.

People never want to face the reality and that God sees no need to resurrect those who have already been deemed unfit and refused to believe.
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Lev 26:36 And upon them that are left alive of you I will send a faintness into their hearts in the lands of their enemies; and the sound of a shaken leaf shall chase them; and they shall flee, as fleeing from a sword; and they shall fall when none pursueth.

Job 15:21 A dreadful sound is in his ears: in prosperity the destroyer shall come upon him.
Psa 35:5 Let them be as chaff before the wind: and let the angel of the LORD chase them.

Ps 1:4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away. 5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Deuteronomy 12:30 take heed to yourself that you are not ensnared to follow them, after they are destroyed from before you, and that you do not inquire after their gods, saying, "How did these nations serve their gods? I also will do likewise." (31) You shall not worship the LORD your God in that way; for every abomination to the LORD which He hates they have done to their gods; for they burn even their sons and daughters in the [HELL] fire to their gods.

Matthew 15:9 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.""

Before you died you had your chance and if you refused, it is too late. You should have oil in your lamp when the bridegroom comes because the door will be shut, if you do not.

Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

Ps 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

 

[Der Alte]

And now the rest of the story; your words, not mine :
People never want to face the reality and that God sees no need to resurrect those who have already been deemed unfit and refused to believe.

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

The usual gamut of out-of-context proof texts! How are the dead judged? Before or after they die? The scripture says after death.

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. ​

Awake to everlasting contempt. Everlastingly, unendingly awake to contempt! Not annihilated at death! Not resurrrected, judged and dead again or annihilated.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Act 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:​

Lev 26:36 And upon them that are left alive of you I will send a faintness into their hearts in the lands of their enemies; and the sound of a shaken leaf shall chase them; and they shall flee, as fleeing from a sword; and they shall fall when none pursueth.

Temporal punishment in this life, Says nothing about man's eternal fate.

Job 15:21 A dreadful sound is in his ears: in prosperity the destroyer shall come upon him.

This is Eliphaz the Temanite speaking, arguing against Job's faith, not speaking "thus saith the Lord."

Psa 35:5 Let them be as chaff before the wind: and let the angel of the LORD chase them.

This is a prayer what the Psalmist wants God to do, not what actually happens or happened.

Ps 1:4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away. 5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.

Says nothing about man's eternal fate.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

All the dead are resurrected some to eternal life some to everlasting contempt, Dan 12:2.

Deuteronomy 12:30 take heed to yourself that you are not ensnared to follow them, after they are destroyed from before you, and that you do not inquire after their gods, saying, "How did these nations serve their gods? I also will do likewise." (31) You shall not worship the LORD your God in that way; for every abomination to the LORD which He hates they have done to their gods; for they burn even their sons and daughters in the [HELL] fire to their gods.

Twisting scripture to support twisted doctrine! Vs. 31 does not say or mean "Hell fire!" The Israelites could not, did not burn their children in "hell fire!" They sacrificed their children in common ordinary fire to the pagan diety "Moloch," which violated God's specific commandment.

Matthew 15:9 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.""

Before you died you had your chance and if you refused, it is too late. You should have oil in your lamp when the bridegroom comes because the door will be shut, if you do not.

Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

Why is the doctrine of men being inserted into scripture here? Were the unwise virgins who went to buy oil annihilated because they had no oil? Since the answer is no, they were only excluded from the wedding, this verse does not support annihilation of the wicked.

Ps 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Double !! David praying to God, stating what he can observe with his natural senses and that is the dead are in their graves, not speaking, etc. While this Psalm is the word of God, God did not inspire David to pray to Him, "in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?" David is praying that God will rescue him from death because after death he, David, cannot remember or praise God.

 

[he-man]

The usual gamut of out-of-context proof texts! How are the dead judged? Before or after they die? The scripture says after death.

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Before you died you had your chance and if you refused, it is too late. You should have oil in your lamp when the bridegroom comes because the door will be shut, if you do not.

Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

Isa_5:24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.

Hos 13:3 Therefore they shall be as the morning cloud, and as the early dew that passeth away, as the chaff driven with the whirlwind out of the threshing-floor, and as the smoke out of the chimney.

Ps 1:4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.

2Pe 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

 

[Der Alte]

Repeating the same list of out-of-context scripture which I just addressed does not prove me wrong and you right. Can you show from scripture or historical sources that my interpretation is wrong? Since you cannot do so your interpretation is wrong.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

And now the rest of the story; your words, not mine :
People never want to face the reality and that God sees no need to resurrect those who have already been deemed unfit and refused to believe.

Thank you so much for repeating your sentiment that you believe my father is in Hell. I got it the first time. I think I understand now why some pastors are forced to retire.

 

[he-man]

Thank you so much for repeating your sentiment that you believe my father is in Hell.

I do not know your father or if he despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.
So are you saying your father was without the Law, despised the word of the Holy One of Israel, and never knew Christ?

People never want to face the reality and that God sees no need to resurrect those who refused to believe.Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Originally Posted by DrBubbaLove View Post
While the sentiment expressed is appreciated and I am thankful for it, the idea our loved ones who have passed-on no longer exist is a very bleak one. For that matter, in such a dismal view one cannot even speak of someone who is said to have "ceased to exist" as "passing-on" because they have not "gone" somewhere. The thought can only be the dead are no more, just like the claim the burnt chaff is "no more" - utterly destroyed by "death". Hardly comforting thoughts.[unquote]

Isa_5:24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.

Hos 13:3 Therefore they shall be as the morning cloud, and as the early dew that passeth away, as the chaff driven with the whirlwind out of the threshing-floor, and as the smoke out of the chimney.

Mat 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Ps 1:4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.

 

[createdtoworship]

1. Matthew 25:46
   "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."
   
   Augustine raised the argument that since Aionios in Matthew 25:46 refers to both life and punishment , it had to carry the same duration in both cases.
   
   Annihilationists are stuck to believe the duration is relative to whom it is given.
   
2. secondly the soul has to be eternal because satan and angels are eternal and it is them that share the experience of Hell with the wicked. Again annihilationists are stuck to believe that the duration is relative to whom it is given.
   
3. thirdly, the beast and the false prophet are in hell a thousand years in the Revelation. They will be tossed in before the millennium and abide until the end of the 1000 years when Satan is thrown in.
   
   Revelation 14:11
   "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."
   
   Rev 20:10
   "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
   
   notice it states that they currently ARE there in revelation 20:10, placed in prior to the millenium, and still there 1000 years later! Literally speaking!
   Even Edward Fudge admits that the third argument is an argument for traditionalism regarding Hell. But then he dodges the context trying to play the game of illegitimate totality transfer again with the words, as he usually does.

(I will not be able to respond as this is my last post on CF for awhile - while working 7 days a week, TTYL)

 

[DrBubbaLove]

I do not know your father or if he despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.
So are you saying your father was without the Law, despised the word of the Holy One of Israel, and never knew Christ?

No! Am saying your posts have strongly implied three times now that my father is in Hell and apparently you are proud of the fact one can post that repeatedly without evening knowing the man.

Am wanting to give you the benefit of doubt as you typically seem so oblivious to what others are actually posting that in your haste to cut and paste something generally unrelated to the discourse, you insert yourself into a dialogue you were not even a part of to begin with, and you do not even realize the implications of what you're posting when it is set next to what you're supposedly attempting to reply to. (which is one reason why peopole stop responding to your post BTW). But hey, once it is pointed out what you implied about my father the first time I guess repeating it two more times out of pure spite has to mean something where your from. (I'd bet good money right now you will double down and do it again.) I'll stop responding to you now and go back to ignoring your posts as I have for some time now. The only reason I did respond was your attack on a good man's reputation, a man you admittedly do not even know. You should be ashamed, but I doubt you get it.

As far as my father knowing Christ, I would say he is in way way better shape right now than someone willing to publically condemn people to Hell that they admittedly never knew. And by your behavior here I'd say a far, far better man and better Christian as well. I will ask him to pray for you. Thanks for asking.

 

[Timothew]

Hi Doc Bubba,
I was just re-reading your post and I saw this sentence.

For that matter, in such a dismal view one cannot even speak of someone who is said to have "ceased to exist" as "passing-on" because they have not "gone" somewhere.

Actually, you are correct. I dislike the euphemism "he passed away". I would rather be specific in my language. My father died, my brother and I put his casket in the back of his pickup truck and we drove to South Dakota to bury him next to my mother.

And I fully believe, and I told my Dad this too, that when Jesus Christ returns both him and Mom will be resurrected and they will live again.

But I can confidently say that my Dad is with my Mom right now, and I also think that he is happier than he has ever been since my Mom died. Depression hit my Dad hard when my Mom died of cancer in 1980.

(Incidentally, I also dislike the phrase "He's in a better place now".)

 

[he-man]

As far as my father knowing Christ, I would say he is in way way better shape right now than someone willing to publically condemn people to Hell that they admittedly never knew. And by your behavior here I'd say a far, far better man and better Christian as well. I will ask him to pray for you. Thanks for asking.

Thanks, and here is a prayer for you:

Ecc 9:1 For all this I considered in my heart even to declare all this, that the righteous, and the wise, and their works, are in the hand of God: no man knoweth either love or hatred by all that is before them.

Pay attention to what Christ instructed:
Mat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

1 John 2:15) Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. (16) For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Hi Doc Bubba,
I was just re-reading your post and I saw this sentence.





Actually, you are correct. I dislike the euphemism "he passed away". I would rather be specific in my language. My father died, my brother and I put his casket in the back of his pickup truck and we drove to South Dakota to bury him next to my mother.

And I fully believe, and I told my Dad this too, that when Jesus Christ returns both him and Mom will be resurrected and they will live again.

But I can confidently say that my Dad is with my Mom right now, and I also think that he is happier than he has ever been since my Mom died. Depression hit my Dad hard when my Mom died of cancer in 1980.

(Incidentally, I also dislike the phrase "He's in a better place now".)

While I do believe my father, and all our loved ones can be "happier" now, am unclear how a view which says they no longer exist (even if that is considered temporary) can speak of them being happy. Only a person who acutally exists (whether dead or alive) can be said to be happy. A person who no longer exists cannot "be" anything. Which is one reason I find this a very cold view and essentially a non-existent "afterlife".

And please save me the "but they come back" from non-existence argument. I get it, but that does not work for me. And I still fail to see how one can view those people who have gone before us as "happy", at least until they "come back" from non-existence.

 

[he-man]

And please save me the "but they come back" from non-existence argument. I get it, but that does not work for me. And I still fail to see how one can view those people who have gone before us as "happy", at least until they "come back" from non-existence.

DELETED

 

[Timothew]

While I do believe my father, and all our loved ones can be "happier" now, am unclear how a view which says they no longer exist (even if that is considered temporary) can speak of them being happy. Only a person who acutally exists (whether dead or alive) can be said to be happy. A person who no longer exists cannot "be" anything. Which is one reason I find this a very cold view and essentially a non-existent "afterlife".

And please save me the "but they come back" from non-existence argument. I get it, but that does not work for me. And I still fail to see how one can view those people who have gone before us as "happy", at least until they "come back" from non-existence.

I said that my father was happier now for only one reason, he was never happy from the day my mother died, thus he is happier than that now. It isn't saying much. He will have real joy when Jesus returns and he wakes up next to his wife.

I'm sorry that you find this to be a "cold view", but I don't. The day of resurrection when Jesus returns will be a happy day of reunion for all of us. God is able to resurrect the dead. Jesus resurrected the dead many times in the Bible. Those he resurrected were dead and became alive again. I trust Jesus to resurrect us from death, and make us alive again.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

I said that my father was happier now for only one reason, he was never happy from the day my mother died, thus he is happier than that now. It isn't saying much. He will have real joy when Jesus returns and he wakes up next to his wife.

I'm sorry that you find this to be a "cold view", but I don't. The day of resurrection when Jesus returns will be a happy day of reunion for all of us. God is able to resurrect the dead. Jesus resurrected the dead many times in the Bible. Those he resurrected were dead and became alive again. I trust Jesus to resurrect us from death, and make us alive again.

I do not doubt that Judgement day will be a happy one for some.

But to clarify, we can say nothing about things which do not exists. So in a view which says our person (whatever one sees that to be) ceases to exist when we die - there is literally nothing to say about the "state" of such people. And "nothing" is less than "not saying much".

I agree that if a person is not happy at the end of this life, then believing they no longer exist now certainly means they are no longer unhappy, but not because their "state" changed. In such a view of death, it means only that the unhappiness ended because the person ended.

We have already discussed the difficulty of claiming there is a continuim of a person's existence when one claims people can go in and out of existence. Am glad the belief somehow assures some that they will be happy in some future existence. I do however doubt we could see the Good in taking someone that one claims does not exist, making them somehow exist again with the intent of making them permanently non-exxistent again.