Scripture and the earliest Church Fathers indicate a gap in Daniel's seventy weeks.

Biblewriter

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The prophecy of the seventy weeks was revealed to Daniel in the following words. "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy." (Daniel 9:24)

First, we need to understand that, although most of our English translations say seventy weeks, the Hebrew word translated weeks was shabuwa' (word number 7620 in Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary) This word was used in the Old Testament for both a period of seven days and a period of seven years. Only the context could show whether days of years was meant. An in this case, the context clearly shows that the meaning could not even possibly been days. So it is not simply interpretation to take seventy weeks as meaning 490 years. This is a fully legitimate meaning of the Hebrew words used here.

Daniel was told, "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times." (Daniel 9:26) Here we have sixty-nine weeks, or 483 years, from the going forth of the commandment to Messiah the Prince. Some claim that there is historical evidence that the triumphal entry occurred exactly 483 years, to the day, after the signing of this order. I cannot personally testify as to the accuracy of this claim. But history indeed confirms that it occurred at approximately that time.

But now the Divinely inspired account contains a break. We read, "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined." (Daniel 9:25-26)

Two things were to happen after the sixty-two week second part of this account. And we know that both of them indeed happened exactly as explicitly stated. “Messiah” would “be cut off,” and “the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.” Messiah was indeed cut off, and the city and the sanctuary were indeed destroyed. We know from history that these two events did not happen within a seven year period. Most historians feel that our calendar is in error, and the actual date of Jesus’ birth was 4 BC. Since Jesus lived thirty-three years, that puts his death in 29 A.D. But the city was not destroyed until 70 A.D., forty-one years after that. So even if there are small errors in the accepted dates of history, we absolutely know that “the city and the sanctuary” were not destroyed in the same week (seven year period) that our Lord was crucified. But we need to notice that both of these events are presented before the last week is even mentioned. So here we see an absolutely undeniable break in the scriptural account of the seventy weeks.

But the last week is treated differently. It does not even say that this is the seventieth week. The only reason we know that it is the seventieth week is because all the rest of the weeks had already been used up. So this week had to be the seventieth one. We read, "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." (Daniel 9:27)

Now many imagine that this verse speaks of the cross. They want to interpret the word “for” in this verse as “in,” and claim that this was speaking of Jesus confirming God’s covenant with us “in” the seventieth week, and claim that Jesus was crucified at the middle of the seventieth week. But even if history were wrong by so many years, this interpretation does violence to the structure of the prophecy. For the last week is not even mentioned until after the two events that were to take place after the sixty-ninth week.

But an end time covenant that will not be fulfilled is clearly mentioned in other Old Testament prophecies. One of these is Isaiah 28:14-18, where we read, “Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste. Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place. And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.”

Again, in Isaiah 57:7-9 we read, “Upon a lofty and high mountain hast thou set thy bed: even thither wentest thou up to offer sacrifice. Behind the doors also and the posts hast thou set up thy remembrance: for thou hast discovered thyself to another than me, and art gone up; thou hast enlarged thy bed, and made thee a covenant with them; thou lovedst their bed where thou sawest it. And thou wentest to the king with ointment, and didst increase thy perfumes, and didst send thy messengers far off, and didst debase thyself even unto hell.”

So we see that the scriptures indeed clearly foretell a future covenant that God will not allow to be fulfilled. Daniel 9:27 is only one of several places where this covenant in mentioned.

Others imagine that the existence of this gap is a relatively new concept, first developed by the dispensational teachers of the nineteenth century. But this is an error. The oldest Christian commentary on Bible prophecy of any significant length that has survived to the present day is the last ten chapters of the famous work by Irenaeus titled “Against Heresies,” which is believed to have been written between the years 186 and 188. In this work Irenaeus spoke of the reign of an evil ruler whom he taught would come in the future, calling him “Antichrist,” and saying:

“And then he points out the time that his tyranny shall last, during which the saints shall be put to flight, they who offer a pure sacrifice unto God: ‘And in the midst of the week,’ he says, ‘the sacrifice and the libation shall be taken away, and the abomination of desolation [shall be brought] into the temple: even unto the consummation of the time shall the desolation be complete.’Now three years and six months constitute the half-week.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXV, section 4)

So there can be no rational debate that Irenaeus taught that the last of the seventy weeks revealed to Daniel would be fulfilled in his own future, not in his past.
Something on the order of twenty or so years after Irenaeus penned these words, Hyppolytus wrote the very oldest Christian commentary on scripture that has survived to the present day. His work was a commentary on Daniel which is thought to have been written sometime between the years 202 and 211. Hyppolytus very clearly taught a gap in the prophecy of the seventy weeks, saying:

“For after sixty-two weeks was fulfilled and after Christ has come and the Gospel has been preached in every place, times having been spun out, the end remains one week away, in which Elijah and Enoch shall be present and in its half the abomination of desolation, the Antichrist, shall appear who threatens desolation of the world. After he comes, sacrifice and drink offering, which now in every way is offered by the nations to God, shall be taken away.” (Commentary on Daniel, by Hyppolytus, book 4, 35.3, as translated by T. C. Schmidt, and as available online at http://www.chronicon.net.)

Later in this same work, Hyppolytus said:

“Just as also he spoke to Daniel, “And he shall establish a covenant with many for one week and it will be that in the half of the week he shall take away my sacrifice and drink offering,” so that the one week may be shown as divided into two, after the two witnesses will have preached for three and a half years, the Antichrist will wage war against the saints the remainder of the week and will desolate all the world so that what was spoken may be fulfilled, “And they will give the abomination of desolation one thousand two hundred ninety days. Blessed is he who endures to Christ and reaches the one thousand three hundred thirty-five days!” (Commentary on Daniel, by Hyppolytus, book 4, 50.2)

Again, Clement of Alexandria whose work is believed to have “been given to the world in 194 A.D., wrote, “That the temple accordingly was built in seven weeks, is evident; for it is written in Esdras. And thus Christ became King of the Jews, reigning in Jerusalem in the fulfilment of the seven weeks. And in the sixty and two weeks the whole of Judæa was quiet, and without wars. And Christ our Lord, ‘the Holy of Holies,’ having come and fulfilled the vision and the prophecy, was anointed in His flesh by the Holy Spirit of His Father. In those ‘sixty and two weeks,’ as the prophet said, and ‘in the one week,’ was He Lord. The half of the week Nero held sway, and in the holy city Jerusalem placed the abomination; and in the half of the week he was taken away, and Otho, and Galba, and Vitellius. And Vespasian rose to the supreme power, and destroyed Jerusalem, and desolated the holy place. And that such are the facts of the case, is clear to him that is able to understand, as the prophet said.” (“The Stromata,” by Clement of Alexandria, book 1, chapter 21, from “The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers,” edited by Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, as found in its American edition edited by A. Cleveland Coxe,and as found online at Christian Classics Ethereal Library.)

Here we see that Clement, though he did not see the gap in the seventy weeks extending into his own future, as did both Irenaeus, who wrote before him, and Hyppolytus, who wrote after him, he also saw a short gap in the same prophey, putting the seventieth week in the time on Nero and Vespacian, nearly forty years after the end of the sixty-ninth week.

Since these are the only three surviving documents from this period that spoke of the subject, we see that this gap in the seventy weeks revealed to Daniel was not only indicated in the very text of the scriptures themselves, it was also taught by every Christian writer who commented on the subject in the first two centuries of the history of the church. (That is, of course, every such writer whose works have survived to the present day.)

The length of this gap is never stated in scripture. But two of the three Christian writers from before the year 200 who commented on when these things would take place, and whose works have been preserved, thought that it would be at the end of earth's six thousandth year. ( Epistle of Barnabas, chapter XV, Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXVII, sections 2-3 and book V, chapter XXXIII, section 2) Since they used the chronology of the Septuagint, that would mean that they expected the gap to be around 450 to 500 years.

Every other Christian writer who wrote on Bible Prophecy before the year 200, and whose works have been preserved, said there would be a future kingdom on this earth that would last a thousand years. (Dialogue With Trypho, by Justin Martyr, chapters LXXX-LXXXI and Eusebius' comments on Papias, The Church History, by Eusebius, book III, chapter XXXIX, sections 12-13.)

Indeed, in the early church futurism was so prevalent that in the fifth century Justin wrote that "We should therefore concur with the traditional interpretation of all the commentators of the Christian Church, that at the end of the world, when the Roman Empire is to be destroyed, there shall be ten kings who will partition the Roman world amongst themselves. Then an insignificant eleventh king will arise, who will overcome three of the ten kings." (Jerome’s comments on Daniel 7:8, as found in “Jerome’s Commentary on Daniel,” translated by Gleason L. Archer, Jr., published by Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, 1958.)
 

parousia70

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Again, Clement of Alexandria whose work is believed to have “been given to the world in 194 A.D., wrote, “That the temple accordingly was built in seven weeks, is evident; for it is written in Esdras. And thus Christ became King of the Jews, reigning in Jerusalem in the fulfilment of the seven weeks. And in the sixty and two weeks the whole of Judæa was quiet, and without wars. And Christ our Lord, ‘the Holy of Holies,’ having come and fulfilled the vision and the prophecy, was anointed in His flesh by the Holy Spirit of His Father. In those ‘sixty and two weeks,’ as the prophet said, and ‘in the one week,’ was He Lord. The half of the week Nero held sway, and in the holy city Jerusalem placed the abomination; and in the half of the week he was taken away, and Otho, and Galba, and Vitellius. And Vespasian rose to the supreme power, and destroyed Jerusalem, and desolated the holy place. And that such are the facts of the case, is clear to him that is able to understand, as the prophet said.” (“The Stromata,” by Clement of Alexandria, book 1, chapter 21, from “The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers,” edited by Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, as found in its American edition edited by A. Cleveland Coxe,and as found online at Christian Classics Ethereal Library.)

Clement the Preterist.
 
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Notrash

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Your getting better. At least you acknowledge that the earliest were speaking of @500 AD and the fall of the roman empire.

However even in the few quotes you provided, it shows the ECF's were not infallible since they disagreed with one another. Additionally, hypolitus thought that the end of sacrifice and oblation applied to the drink offerings to 'gods' that continued through the roman empire for a time. The topic of Daniel wss 490 yrs upon thy people and city, not on the roman empire. Thus putting a stop to sacrifice and oblation would only relate to the sacrifice and gift offerings in conjunction with the performance of the mosaic covt. You actually disproove your point by referring to peoples teachings which aren't consistent withone another or with the prophecy. But you doo acurately show their fallibility AND that misinterpretation, the literal hermeneutic (the letter, not the spirit) has been around for a long time. Ireneous wss also the one who wrote of Christ as having lived into his 50'S in order to satisfy the Roman idea that a man of that age had been considered to have lived an adult life.

Another thing I've noticed is that several or perhaps mist of thes men came from parts distant to the culture of jerusalem; such as Ireneous and likely hippolytus. They were removed from the historical religious fand culteral flavor to which the prophecies were made. They applied prophecy and the literal words of the epistles to their time and culture, not understanding them in the light and perspective of the people group to whom they were prophesied. This is muxh the same as we do today.

Additionally tryphp noted that although he and others considered the 1000 yrs to be literal, he noted that there were many noble believers who did not consider them to be literal. But we don't have their writings. They were among those who were destroyed up through @300 AD.

Secondly, if you allow a gap between wks 69 & 70; why do you not DEMAND a gap between weeks 7 & 62? It is not logical or justified.

I think we've been through several of these points before of which they were unanswered or unrebutted.

Thirdly, there is a hiphil verb tense in both 26 & 27 which is missed or underestimated by translators and interpreters The kjv seems to accurately recognize this in the word "cause" in vs 27. This permits the ceasing of the sacrifice & oblation, the destruction of the city and temple, etc. to be outside of and after the 70 week time period, while the things that cause those endings and effects would be within the 70 weeks. Aparently, though Clement (and I think tertullian?) recognized this prophecy as referring to Jerusalem and the temple they did not see the cause/effect implied or allowed by the hiphil verb tense. They adapted their interpretation to fit the historical occurance without apparently studying the length of time from Daniel to Messiah.

But the happenings of 67-73 AD ocurring through a 7 yr (one week) period helps support the that the ministry and covenant of God through the messiah in 27-33 AD and continuing had secondary "earthshaking" effects. (Heb 12:25-27)

It was pointed out in another thread about 2 yrs ago how the letter of Hebrews contains at least 2 sectioms win which the writer notes that the work of the better priest will effect the ending of the work of the old covt. I think you were in on that thread.

ourthly, The context of Daniels prayer, earlier in ch 9 and its association with the requirements of acknowledgement of the curse of the law of Moses as prescribed in Deut 30:1-5 AND the following description of the new covt in deut:30:6-14 (through the new prophet of deut 18 and the seed promised to mankind through the female gender; gen 3:15, Is 59:5; gen 4:23,24) give reason for the angel to bring the interjection of 483 yrs between the return from babylonian captivity (deut 30:1-3) and the new covt administered by God's son in deut 30:6-14. This context is why "the covenant" of vs 27 is strongly supported if not demanded to be the new covenant of the new words and the indwelling of God through Messiah from 27-33 AD in the city and among Daniels people (first).

I believe, biblewriter, you'll recall that you acknowledged deut 30:6-14 as a reference to the new covenant as also confirmed by Paul to include the indwelling and embodiment of Jesus' doctrine, truts, spirit and teachings (30-33AD ) in Rom 10:6-8.

2 more points to follow.







...
 
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Shocker

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Your getting better. At least you acknowledge that the earliest were speaking of @500 AD and the fall of the roman empire.

However even in the few quotes you provided, it shows the ECF's were not infallible since they disagreed with one another. Additionally, hypolitus thought that the end of sacrifice and oblation applied to the drink offerings to 'gods' that continued through the roman empire for a time. The topic of Daniel wss 490 yrs upon thy people and city, not on the roman empire. Thus putting a stop to sacrifice and oblation would only relate to the sacrifice and gift offerings in conjunction with the performance of the mosaic covt. You actually disproove your point by referring to peoples teachings which aren't consistent withone another or with the prophecy. But you doo acurately show their fallibility AND that misinterpretation, the literal hermeneutic (the letter, not the spirit) has been around for a long time. Ireneous wss also the one who wrote of Christ as having lived into his 50'S in order to satisfy the Roman idea that a man of that age had been considered to have lived an adult life.

Another thing I've noticed is that several or perhaps mist of thes men came from parts distant to the culture of jerusalem; duch as Ireneous and likely hippolytus. They were removed from the historical religious fand culteral flavor to which the prophecies were made.

Additionally tryphp noted that although he and others considered the 1000 yrs to be literal, he noted that there were many noble believers who did not consider them to be literal. But we don't have their writings. They were among those who were destroyed up through @300 AD.

Secondly, if you allow a gap between wks 69 & 70; why do you not DEMAND a gap between weeks 7 & 62? It is not logical or justified.

I think we've been through several of these points before of which they were unanswered or unrebutted.

Thirdly, there is a hiphil verb tense in both 26 & 27 which is missed or underestimated by translators and interpreters The kjv seems to accurately recognize this in the word "cause" in vs 27. This permits the ceasing of the sacrifice & oblation, the destruction of the city and temple, etc. to be outside of and after the 70 week time period, while the things that cause those endings and effects would be within the 70 weeks. Aparently, though Clement (and I think tertullian?) recognized this prophecy as referring to Jerusalem and the temple they did not see the cause/effect implied or allowed by the hiphil verb tense. They adapted their interpretation to fit the historical occurance without apparently studying the length of time from Daniel to Messiah.

But the happenings of 67-73 AD ocurring through a 7 yr (one week) period helps support the that the ministry and covenant of God through the messiah had "earthshaking" effects.

It was pointed out in another thread about 2 yrs ago how the letter of Hebrews contains at least 2 sectioms win which the writer notes that the work of the better priest will effect the ending of the work of the old covt. I think you were in on that thread.

ourthly, The context of Daniels prayer, earlier in ch 9 and its association with the requirements of acknowledgement of the curse of the law of Moses as prescribed in Deut 30:1-5 AND the following description of the new covt in deut:30:6-14 (through the new prophet of deut 18 and the seed promised to mankind through the female gender; gen 3:15, Is 59:5; gen 4:23,24) give reason for the angel to bring the interjection of 483 yrs between the return from babylonian captivity (deut 30:1-3) and the new covt administered by God's son in deut 30:6-14. This context is why "the covenant" of vs 27 is strongly supported if not demanded to be the new covenant of the new words and the indwelling of God through Messiah from 27-33 AD in the city and among Daniels people (first).

2 more points to follow.







...

Sorry Notrash, the 7 year covenant of Dan27 is not the eternal covenant of Christ.

You have a confliction here..
 
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Notrash

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Fifthly, the word "messiah" is only used here and in a reference to Cyrus. Cyrus was raised up to set the captives free from babylon. Recall the first words Jesus read when visiting the temole? He quoted Is 61, thus associating himself with the "annointed" who would set the captives free from mosaic covt "babylon" through the new law of faith. He affirmed himself as messiah to the woman at the well 3 1/2 yrs before the triumphal entry. The voice from heaven mentioned in deut 5:22-33 and 18:15-19 was heard at his baptism and annointing, not the triumphal entry. All these things ocurred 31/2 yrs before being cut off in the midst of the week, with the events if the full week effecting the new/everlasting covt through the lives if thise who received him; just like lamechs recieving of him through absolute faith caused the eventual removal of the curse of labor in the earth outside the garden, so also woukd these disciples if recieving faith cause the removal of the curse of the mosaic covt stipulative law.

Minorly, it was about 1000 yrs from the end if Davids reign to the time of the cross or perhaps the trimphal entry.

I don't recall any of the ECFs mentioning the cunique characteristics of hebrew poetry which is now somewhat universally accepted. This causes vs 26 &27 to be overlapping of one another, not chronologically consecutive. Again, since most of the ecf's were from a roman frame of mind and a literal reading, they may not have picked up on this.

Your appeal to Is 28 & 57 as referring to an "end time"covenant against Israel rather than to end time mosaic covt of the first century in contrast with the new covt of life is unsupported and opinion. Paul quotes several times from these passages and from Isaiah in a context if first century fulfillment. The covt of death is thus the conditional, stipulative ways of the mosaic covt (2 cor 3). One example of his quoting Is 28:11 is in 1 cor 14:21. There he gives a first century fulfillment to this very chapter. Thus, "these scoffers" who ruled my people (recievers of God) who were in Jerusalem, refers to the Jews who scoffed at the law of life of the new covt and the coming dissolution of the mosaic covt. temple, etc. The calamity against jerusalem of the mosic covt continues in ch 29.



...
 
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Aijalon

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More great evidence showing that the great tribulation that ever was and ever shall be has not happened..

Except that the saints of Revelation 7 come out of the Great Tribulation, well before the last seal is unsealed. That right there is enough proof that the end times are what follows the Great (high rank) Tribulation.

Since John was NOT told to seal the words of the prophecy, and that it was very close, we know that the Revelation events began in his time, and therefore they have been occuring since then. It is simple, it is scripturally proovable, and more or less obvious.

Notwithstanding the terminology problem of the "great tribulation" I agree, there is a gap, most likely more than one. There is a gap after the 7, after the 62, and after the middle of the week. If there is no gap between the 7 and 62 weeks, why are they counted separately? There is no reason to do so. They would be simply 69 weeks and one week.

Besides that, the decree of Cyrus was roughly 536 BC, more than 69 weeks from Christ's birth. Artaxerxes did not decree anything, he only supplied goods for the continuation of the rebuilding. But precisely 62 weeks before the birth of Christ (434 years) was when the city gates were rebuilt and the event carefully recorded by scripture.
Or if you believe in the "4-day" chronology, then the 7 and 62 are overlapping periods I think.
 
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parousia70

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Sorry Notrash, the 7 year covenant of Dan27 is not the eternal covenant of Christ.

You have a confliction here..


The conflict is yours since the 7 year confirmation of the covenant in Dan 27 is a 7 year CONFIRMATION of a covenant, not a 7 year covenant.
 
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Notrash

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Except that the saints of Revelation 7 come out of the Great Tribulation, well before the last seal is unsealed. That right there is enough proof that the end times are what follows the Great (high rank) Tribulation.

Since John was NOT told to seal the words of the prophecy, and that it was very close, we know that the Revelation events began in his time, and therefore they have been occuring since then. It is simple, it is scripturally proovable, and more or less obvious.

Notwithstanding the terminology problem of the "great tribulation" I agree, there is a gap, most likely more than one. There is a gap after the 7, after the 62, and after the middle of the week. If there is no gap between the 7 and 62 weeks, why are they counted separately? There is no reason to do so. They would be simply 69 weeks and one week.

Besides that, the decree of Cyrus was roughly 536 BC, more than 69 weeks from Christ's birth. Artaxerxes did not decree anything, he only supplied goods for the continuation of the rebuilding. But precisely 62 weeks before the birth of Christ (434 years) was when the city gates were rebuilt and the event carefully recorded by scripture.
Or if you believe in the "4-day" chronology, then the 7 and 62 are overlapping periods I think.


Philip Mauro and Martin Antsey did a work called the wonders of bible chronology. ((ANTSEY more than mauro). In it he finds @80 extra years of ushers chronology, thus getting The time if cyrus's decree to @27 AD very close. I can't say I've read the details yet, but those who have, they claim cannot refute his chrinology.

I think the terminology of Christs words about a greaaaaat tribulation comes from dan 12:1 thus limiting it to the time of tribulation administered to that covt nation. Since the covt and nation ended in @30-70 AD, the words "nor shall ever be" applied to that time of turmoil to that temporary nation.
 
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Shocker

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Except that the saints of Revelation 7 come out of the Great Tribulation, well before the last seal is unsealed. That right there is enough proof that the end times are what follows the Great (high rank) Tribulation.

Since John was NOT told to seal the words of the prophecy, and that it was very close, we know that the Revelation events began in his time, and therefore they have been occuring since then. It is simple, it is scripturally proovable, and more or less obvious.

Notwithstanding the terminology problem of the "great tribulation" I agree, there is a gap, most likely more than one. There is a gap after the 7, after the 62, and after the middle of the week. If there is no gap between the 7 and 62 weeks, why are they counted separately? There is no reason to do so. They would be simply 69 weeks and one week.

Besides that, the decree of Cyrus was roughly 536 BC, more than 69 weeks from Christ's birth. Artaxerxes did not decree anything, he only supplied goods for the continuation of the rebuilding. But precisely 62 weeks before the birth of Christ (434 years) was when the city gates were rebuilt and the event carefully recorded by scripture.
Or if you believe in the "4-day" chronology, then the 7 and 62 are overlapping periods I think.

I understand the Cyrus decree to be 457b.c.
 
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Shocker

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The conflict is yours since the 7 year confirmation of the covenant in Dan 27 is a 7 year CONFIRMATION of a covenant, not a 7 year covenant.

That makes no sense.

Dan 9:27 "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."
 
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Shocker said in post 11:

Dan 9:27 "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."

Daniel 9:27 "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

Regarding Daniel 9:27, back in Daniel 9:26 the original Hebrew word (karath, H3772) translated as "cut off" can refer to when a peace treaty/covenant is "made" (Genesis 21:27). The 1st century AD fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a was at the Crucifixion, when the true Messiah, Jesus, made the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17). The future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a will be when the Antichrist makes a peace treaty, which will be a fulfillment of the covenant in Daniel 9:27 and the league in Daniel 11:23, with a future, ultra-Orthodox Jewish false Messiah in Jerusalem, after he and his followers are defeated by the Antichrist (Daniel 11:22-23). So the future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a can refer to this false Messiah being "cut off" in the sense of being "covenanted", peace-treatied.

This treaty will allow this false Messiah and his followers to keep a 3rd Jewish temple which they will have built on Jerusalem's Temple Mount (after they or great earthquakes have destroyed the Muslim structures there), and to (mistakenly) continue to perform the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices in front of the temple for at least 7 years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims so that the Muslims can rebuild the (by that time destroyed) Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. After "cutting" this treaty (Daniel 9:26a), the Antichrist could appear before the "many" (Daniel 9:27) nations represented at the U.N. General Assembly, and "confirm" (Daniel 9:27) that for at least 7 years he will keep this treaty with the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Jerusalem, using this as purported proof to the world that he is (in his words) "a man of peace, and no Hitler".

In Daniel 9:27, "he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" refers to when, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty of Daniel 9:26a,27a and Daniel 11:23a, the Antichrist will break the treaty, attack the 3rd temple, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, place the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Daniel 9:27b, Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15), and then sit himself in the temple and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). Thus could begin the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

At the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the Antichrist (Daniel 11:45) and the world's armies will pillage Jerusalem right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21). And at the 2nd coming there will be tremendous earth changes in the vicinity of Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:4-5). These events could result in all of Jerusalem's structures, including the 3rd temple and the Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall), being broken down so that not one stone will be left on another (Luke 19:44, Matthew 24:2). Then the returned Jesus (Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11-12) will rebuild Jerusalem and make it the capital of the world (Zechariah 14:8-19, Micah 4:1-4). He will also build a 4th temple there (Zechariah 14:20-21, Zechariah 6:12-13). It will serve a similar function for the church during the future millennium (of Revelation 20:4-6) as the 2nd temple served for the church in the first century AD (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17) and as the temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19) serves for those in heaven (Revelation 7:15).
 
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Interplanner

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As far as the OP goes, it is an example of how off-issue futurism can be. There already is a gap in the 70 years, when he says 7 sevens and 42 sevens. What's that about? I have a theory that it is how the 70th ends up being the spread of the 27 years of 33-70, but I don't think exactness is the point at all. the final paragraph of Dan 9 is not written for mathematical exactness. For ex., the phrase "in the midst" can mean any time during a period as well as all through it. It does not mean bisection, or exactly at a halfway point.
 
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Shocker

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The week simply means that much time would be spent showing that the new covenant is here. half was spent by him teaching it, half in the overwhelming proof of the devastation of Israel in 66+.

Can you show me that in history?

Nope.

The 7 year covenant is not the covenant of salvation brought by Christ.


That is just ridiculous to even suggest.
 
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Interplanner

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Shocker, I was led to understand you have been a believer about a year, is that correct? You really need to cool the jets.

Jesus ministered about 3.5 years introducing and explaining the new covenant of justification from sins. He then had the apostles be envoys of that as 'careers.' 2 Cor 3-6. (note that the impostor apostles later in the letter are those that deny the new covenant, and are Judaistic). Then there is about 3.5 years of the terms he dictated would happen to all those who did not follow his new covenant: they would be at the whim of a leader of a 'rebellion that desolates' which is the subject of Mt 21, 22, 23 and concluded in 24's ID of a person who would do all that.

The language of Dan 9:24 is used all over the NT to define what the Gospel is:
the atonement,
the covering of sins,
the new sacrifice,
the infinite righteousness of God,
the fulfillment of OT hopes, etc.
Even if all you had was Hebrews (the letter) you would see this, and that 'the fulfillment of the times' is the authors way of refering to the times/weeks/sevens of Daniel. I'll take that any day over space-case futurism.

You don't know either Scripture or history, but you can get a start (a rather exciting one) by digest Holford's 7 signs that took place in the Jewish war.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7796422/

I don't mention that to dwell on the spectacular, because you really need to read the whole treatment of the document THE JEWISH WAR. Holford wrote to answer the destructive skepticism of Thomas Payne in 1805. Touche. You could read the doc itself, but its hundreds of pages. Holfords summary is about 15 pages of the gruesome reality of the 'unparalleled hardship' we know as the Jewish War of 66+.
 
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Shocker

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You don't know either Scripture or history, but you can get a start (a rather exciting one) by digest Holford's 7 signs that took place in the Jewish war.

I know scripture just fine, which is why I let the word do the talking..


Its funny how you tell me I don't know scripture, then to get me started, refer me to something other than scripture.

Proverbs is full of verses about guys like you.
 
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Interplanner

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Once you know the historical background Holford gives, you also will say you were looking at Mt 24 but didn't "know" it. It is breath-taking in detail. For most of the Christian church's history, people knew what Holford was saying. In northern Europe, there are classical paintings about the DofJ that have all the detail in it.

But the Pope in the Reformation era had a huge problem: he was being classed as antichrist. To 'rescue' him he had a couple agressive Jesuits come up with systems to refute that classification. Ribera's had the following:
a future Jewish AC
a future Jewish temple

All this did was lead to another form of anti-semitism. About 200 years later (and 50 years after Holford), a little isolated group started teaching that this stuff was not Catholic at all but actually embedded in the NT. They ignored the ground established by the best of the Reformers. They were the first to historically wreck the introduction of Mt 24's normal meaning.

No one at the conservative, historic seminary I studied at was futurist. That's because real scholarship about the NT dwells on how Luke-Acts relates to the Jewish War. You analyze those decades very , very closely.

Could you please clarify again: you have been a believer for a year, or was that said in jest? Thanks.
 
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