To tithe, or not to tithe. That is the question!

Thanks SVT4HIM,
it was long, but very good.

BeforeThereWas said:

I recall reading about Uzzah in the OT, who, with good intentions, put his hand on the ark to stabilize it from falling off the cart. The Lord was angry with him and struck him dead anyway, regardless of his seemingly good intentions, which REALLY angered David.

Let's see.....how does that verse go....There's a way that seemeth right unto a man, but that leads to death thereof.....? Something like that.

Yes, we sometimes tend to do what we hope is the right thing....always with the best of intentions, of course (rolling eyes to the ceiling)....but when it runs counter to God's way shown to us within scripture, we shouldn't complain when taken out to the wood shed.

BTW

Click to expand...

God had said noone was to touch the ark, as.far as I know God has not said dont tithe.so its a differnt

BeforeThereWas said:

I recall reading about Uzzah in the OT, who, with good intentions, put his hand on the ark to stabilize it from falling off the cart. The Lord was angry with him and struck him dead anyway, regardless of his seemingly good intentions, which REALLY angered David.

Let's see.....how does that verse go....There's a way that seemeth right unto a man, but that leads to death thereof.....? Something like that.

Yes, we sometimes tend to do what we hope is the right thing....always with the best of intentions, of course (rolling eyes to the ceiling)....but when it runs counter to God's way shown to us within scripture, we shouldn't complain when taken out to the wood shed.

Click to expand...

So let me make sure I understand what you're saying with this post...

We have been liberated, totally and completely set free from any regulations, or "formulas" as they've been called in this thread, concerning giving. GRACE! But hold on... not really, because God has a specific way He expects us to give, and if we don't abide by this prescribed method of giving, then He will take us to the "wood shed", presumably to beat the ever living snot out of us for.... giving cheerfully and generously as we determine in our hearts, just like 2 Corinthians 9 instructs us to.

I wonder if you realize that you're using the exact same kind of manipulation and control tactics that the most legalistic proponent of the "tithe" would use.

Perhaps giving isn't nearly as complicated as this thread is making it out to be. Perhaps it really is as simple as having a generous heart, and giving cheerfully as you determine in your heart and as the Spirit leads and guides.

ByronArn said:

Is the tithe applicable to the New Covenant? Should Christians give 10% of their income to their church?

Or should we just give whatever is placed upon our hearts for that week, whether that be 7% or 35%?

Click to expand...

it is best what everyone of the giving can afford and spend from its heart

Isaiah 58:10 "And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noon day:"

Blessings

probinson said:

Is this the only way some people know how to communicate?

I follow the scriptures to the best of my ability, just as I'm sure you do. It would be nice if this kind of inane nonsense could be left out of this discussion. Thanks in advance.

There is a clear and obvious difference between being concerned with what other people have with the motive being making sure the needs of others are met vs. complaining that someone lives in a bigger house than you do. Surely you must know that.

Click to expand...

well..gee, scripture says they can't be greedy in 1 peter 5;2, and 1 tim 3:3, and 3;8, Titus 1:7,so if they live in a mansion, driving a beemer, collecting tithes from poor, thay must be>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?

probinson said:

So let me make sure I understand what you're saying with this post...

We have been liberated, totally and completely set free from any regulations, or "formulas" as they've been called in this thread, concerning giving. GRACE! But hold on... not really, because God has a specific way He expects us to give, and if we don't abide by this prescribed method of giving, then He will take us to the "wood shed", presumably to beat the ever living snot out of us for.... giving cheerfully and generously as we determine in our hearts, just like 2 Corinthians 9 instructs us to.

I wonder if you realize that you're using the exact same kind of manipulation and control tactics that the most legalistic proponent of the "tithe" would use.

Perhaps giving isn't nearly as complicated as this thread is making it out to be. Perhaps it really is as simple as having a generous heart, and giving cheerfully as you determine in your heart and as the Spirit leads and guides.

Click to expand...

lets not turn grace into a command, here is text, right form the narrative.


8 I say this not as a command, but to prove by the earnestness of others that your love also is genuine.

Frogster said:

so if they live in a mansion, driving a beemer, collecting tithes from poor, thay must be>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?

Click to expand...

Mansions and Beemers... AGAIN! At least you're consistent...

But seriously, greed is not measured by what one has or does not have. Greed is a condition of the heart.

What you are suggesting, whether you realize it or not, is that the condition of a person's heart can be measured by looking at what kind of car they drive or how big their house is. More to the point, you're suggesting that heart condition can be accurately ascertained by outward appearances, which is the polar opposite of what Jesus said was true. I'd post some "text" for you, but I'm 100% sure that you would ignore it anyway, so I'll save my clicking finger the hassle.

probinson said:

Mansions and Beemers... AGAIN! At least you're consistent...

But seriously, greed is not measured by what one has or does not have. Greed is a condition of the heart.

What you are suggesting, whether you realize it or not, is that the condition of a person's heart can be measured by looking at what kind of car they drive or how big their house is. More to the point, you're suggesting that heart condition can be accurately ascertained by outward appearances, which is the polar opposite of what Jesus said was true. I'd post some "text" for you, but I'm 100% sure that you would ignore it anyway, so I'll save my clicking finger the hassle.

Click to expand...

see the conexion....british for connection of greed with beemers.



Luke 12:15
Then he said to them, “Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; life does not consist in an abundance of possessions.”




i redid it for u




Luke 12:15
Then he said to them, “Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; life does not consist in an abundance of beemers.”

Frogster said:

see the conexion....british for connection of greed with beemers.



Luke 12:15
Then he said to them, “Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; life does not consist in an abundance of possessions.”




i redid it for u




Luke 12:15
Then he said to them, “Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; life does not consist in an abundance of beemers.”

Click to expand...

Sorry, I'm confused. If I have an abundance of beemers and don't wrap my life around it is it ok? What about Toyota's? Computers? Internet programs? You seem to want to expand this way beyond what it really says. If you want an abundance of Porsches, by all means enjoy, but realize live is more than that and don't do it out of greed. Can you have a bunch and be greedy? Sure, but you can also have nothing and be greedy.

Svt4Him said:

Sorry, I'm confused. If I have an abundance of beemers and don't wrap my life around it is it ok? What about Toyota's? Computers? Internet programs? You seem to want to expand this way beyond what it really says. If you want an abundance of Porsches, by all means enjoy, but realize live is more than that and don't do it out of greed. Can you have a bunch and be greedy? Sure, but you can also have nothing and be greedy.

Click to expand...

i never said greed fulfillment is always attainable by the greedy person.

Svt4Him said:

Sorry, I'm confused. If I have an abundance of beemers and don't wrap my life around it is it ok? What about Toyota's? Computers? Internet programs? You seem to want to expand this way beyond what it really says. If you want an abundance of Porsches, by all means enjoy, but realize live is more than that and don't do it out of greed. Can you have a bunch and be greedy? Sure, but you can also have nothing and be greedy.

Click to expand...

ok, I am also confused, the scripture says a pastor can't be greedy, so obviously there has to be a way to recognize greed, otherwise why the standard? There must be a way to know.

Besides, a greedy preacher taking money from the poor, is wrong.

Frogster said:

see the conexion....british for connection of greed with beemers.



Luke 12:15
Then he said to them, “Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; life does not consist in an abundance of possessions.”




i redid it for u




Luke 12:15
Then he said to them, “Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; life does not consist in an abundance of beemers.”

Click to expand...

Hmmm. There's some of that "twisting of text" you keep talking about. But now I'm starting to see why you believe the way you do; you can just change the scripture to fit whatever it is you're arguing about at the moment. Convenient.

Here's what Luke 12:15 says in the Amplified (emphasis added);Well looky there! It says exactly what I've been saying all along; greed is a condition of the heart, measured by covetousness, desire and longing, not by what you have.

For example, one person could have a Beemer. Perhaps they have a decent job where they can easily afford said Beemer. They're quite happy and content with their Beemer. They enjoy driving the Beemer, but they also realize that there are far more important things in life than a car. They give of their abundance freely, and are ever-ready to give and help when they see a need.

OTOH, you could have another person that drives a perfectly good used Toyota, but they really want a Beemer. In fact, every time someone in a Beemer drives by, they covet the Beemer. Everything they do in life is done with the intent to fulfill their dream of acquiring a Beemer. They begrudge other people having a Beemer while they drive their lowly Toyota. They are neither happy nor content that they have a perfectly good Toyota as a means of transportation. They keep everything for themselves in their relentless pursuit to onw a Beemer. They WANT A BEEMER!

By your method of measure, the guy with the Beemer is "greedy" simply by virtue of owning an expensive car, while the guy that covets Beemers every day while driving his used Toyota is in the free and clear.

However, that's quite backwards. As I've said all along, "greed" is a matter of the heart. So in answer to your next question, "How do we measure greed", the answer by looking at the heart. "But we can't see people's hearts." True. But we expose our hearts for the world to see every time we open our mouths, according to Jesus;So when you talk to someone about something and all they can say is "mansions and Beemers!" for years on end (just as an example ), I don't particularly care how much they protest that it's because they're concerned with poor people. Our mouths betray us and show what is in our hearts. If the heart is full of mansions and Beemers, then it will come out, again... and again... and again... OTOH, if the heart is full of the desire to give, that too will come out.

The bottom line is you can't look at someone's car and determine if they're greedy. Just because someone has a more expensive car than you does not indicate that they are greedy. What I am more interested in knowing is what is in their heart, and the best way we have to gauge that is by listening to the things that come out of their mouth.

probinson said:

So let me make sure I understand what you're saying with this post...

We have been liberated, totally and completely set free from any regulations, or "formulas" as they've been called in this thread, concerning giving. GRACE! But hold on... not really, because God has a specific way He expects us to give, and if we don't abide by this prescribed method of giving, then He will take us to the "wood shed", presumably to beat the ever living snot out of us for.... giving cheerfully and generously as we determine in our hearts, just like 2 Corinthians 9 instructs us to.

I wonder if you realize that you're using the exact same kind of manipulation and control tactics that the most legalistic proponent of the "tithe" would use.

Perhaps giving isn't nearly as complicated as this thread is making it out to be. Perhaps it really is as simple as having a generous heart, and giving cheerfully as you determine in your heart and as the Spirit leads and guides.

Click to expand...

Oh, P. That was pretty good. LOL. I liked how you carried my statements to an extreme, "...to beat the ever living snot out of us...," which carried it into a realm having nothing to do with what I was saying. You get an "A" for effort. That was funny.

The way you threw that out there with cavalier indifference brings to mind that you may have been greatly abused as a child. You have my sympathies.

The wood shed thing was an aside, not central to following some religious formula in the vein of legalism.

I don't know how well you've read my posts as a whole (which appears to be very little), but I'll repeat what I've said before:

For me, the crux of all this is the priorities we as believers establish in our giving. Many people place the needs of a dead building and its expenditures before and above the needs of people.

That may not be a problem to you personally, and it certainly isn't a problem to the vast majority of church-goers, but it wreaks of a heart-set and spiritual condition that's become greatly calloused with indifference.

Now, keep in mind I'm not at this point talking about tithing versus non-tithing. I'm forcusing on priorities in simply giving.

Tithing comes into the picture because of the historic perception about the paradigm behind that term. That paradigm mostly defines a "tithe" as the portion handed over to institutionalized religion for its own expenditures, from which the so-called "giver" reaps direct benefit. Anything else the religious people give to other organizations is classified as "charitable."

That's completely backwards. It stabs at intellectual honesty with the hot poker of indifference to what should be important to anyone whose heart is truly set upon the Lord Jesus.

Jesus didn't tithe. Peter didn't tithe. Matthew didn't tithe. James didn't tithe. Paul didn't tithe. None of them are said to have owned anything that falls under the definition of the tithe, but many people operate under the assumption they did, which makes it much easier for them to go along with the false assumption that the tithe predates the Law, and is therefore something that should be handed over to institutionalized religion first and foremost as the prime consideration in giving...which makes no sense at all.

The cumulative whole from all the many, many misconceptions stinks to high Heaven because of the resulting falsehoods that enjoy historic support, as if antiquity behind various beliefs is the only test for TRUTH needed.

Granted: Most people's ability to think critically has been greatly erroded by our modern climate of progressively increasing subjectivity in all things. Various circles of so-called "Christians" have long since embraced perversions, and thus calling evil good, and good evil. Historic falsehoods find only that much more support in such a climate, considering how lazy most people are when it comes to actually reading scripture for what is stated. Most people habitually fail to read verses in context.....that requires too much effort.

Theological tapestries woven together from verses ripped from their contexts is much more fun than to meditate quietly upon the fullness therein.

BTW

probinson said:

Hmmm. There's some of that "twisting of text" you keep talking about. But now I'm starting to see why you believe the way you do; you can just change the scripture to fit whatever it is you're arguing about at the moment. Convenient.

Here's what Luke 12:15 says in the Amplified (emphasis added);

Luke 12:15 (AMP)
And He said to them, Guard yourselves and keep free from all covetousness (the immoderate desire for wealth, the greedy longing to have more); for a man’s life does not consist in and is not derived from possessing overflowing abundance or that which is over and above his needs.
​

Well looky there! It says exactly what I've been saying all along; greed is a condition of the heart, measured by covetousness, desire and longing, not by what you have.

For example, one person could have a Beemer. Perhaps they have a decent job where they can easily afford said Beemer. They're quite happy and content with their Beemer. They enjoy driving the Beemer, but they also realize that there are far more important things in life than a car. They give of their abundance freely, and are ever-ready to give and help when they see a need.

OTOH, you could have another person that drives a perfectly good used Toyota, but they really want a Beemer. In fact, every time someone in a Beemer drives by, they covet the Beemer. Everything they do in life is done with the intent to fulfill their dream of acquiring a Beemer. They begrudge other people having a Beemer while they drive their lowly Toyota. They are neither happy nor content that they have a perfectly good Toyota as a means of transportation. They keep everything for themselves in their relentless pursuit to onw a Beemer. They WANT A BEEMER!

By your method of measure, the guy with the Beemer is "greedy" simply by virtue of owning an expensive car, while the guy that covets Beemers every day while driving his used Toyota is in the free and clear.

However, that's quite backwards. As I've said all along, "greed" is a matter of the heart. So in answer to your next question, "How do we measure greed", the answer by looking at the heart. "But we can't see people's hearts." True. But we expose our hearts for the world to see every time we open our mouths, according to Jesus;

Luke 6:45 (NIV)
A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.
​

So when you talk to someone about something and all they can say is "mansions and Beemers!" for years on end (just as an example ), I don't particularly care how much they protest that it's because they're concerned with poor people. Our mouths betray us and show what is in our hearts. If the heart is full of mansions and Beemers, then it will come out, again... and again... and again... OTOH, if the heart is full of the desire to give, that too will come out.

The bottom line is you can't look at someone's car and determine if they're greedy. Just because someone has a more expensive car than you does not indicate that they are greedy. What I am more interested in knowing is what is in their heart, and the best way we have to gauge that is by listening to the things that come out of their mouth.

Click to expand...

oh my, isn't all this a bit overdone? You said it was a matter of the heart, so i posted a verse that connects greed to posessions. I was right in my usage. Who doesn't know that a greedy person may not be able to get a beemer!? he might not even like beemers!

now, the text gives guidelines. It says they can't be greedy, so that would mean that there must be a way to know if they are greedy, no? If it says they can't have idols, and we see little statues, we make an evalutation, if we see little statues in their homes. If it says they can't drink to much, and we see one always drunk, we make an evaluation, if it says they can't be angry, and we see them always yelling or red in the face, we make an evalutation. So what, oh what, do we do when we see a mansion living, beemer driving preacher, who takes money from the poor. Do we evaluate?

And besides, we all know these mansion dwelling beemer driving preachers are wrong to take money from the poor, so you can say all u want, but that is a fact, even though u for some reason think it's ok.

probinson said:

Hmmm. There's some of that "twisting of text" you keep talking about. But now I'm starting to see why you believe the way you do; you can just change the scripture to fit whatever it is you're arguing about at the moment. Convenient.

Here's what Luke 12:15 says in the Amplified (emphasis added);

Luke 12:15 (AMP)
And He said to them, Guard yourselves and keep free from all covetousness (the immoderate desire for wealth, the greedy longing to have more); for a man’s life does not consist in and is not derived from possessing overflowing abundance or that which is over and above his needs.
​

Well looky there! It says exactly what I've been saying all along; greed is a condition of the heart, measured by covetousness, desire and longing, not by what you have.

For example, one person could have a Beemer. Perhaps they have a decent job where they can easily afford said Beemer. They're quite happy and content with their Beemer. They enjoy driving the Beemer, but they also realize that there are far more important things in life than a car. They give of their abundance freely, and are ever-ready to give and help when they see a need.

OTOH, you could have another person that drives a perfectly good used Toyota, but they really want a Beemer. In fact, every time someone in a Beemer drives by, they covet the Beemer. Everything they do in life is done with the intent to fulfill their dream of acquiring a Beemer. They begrudge other people having a Beemer while they drive their lowly Toyota. They are neither happy nor content that they have a perfectly good Toyota as a means of transportation. They keep everything for themselves in their relentless pursuit to onw a Beemer. They WANT A BEEMER!

By your method of measure, the guy with the Beemer is "greedy" simply by virtue of owning an expensive car, while the guy that covets Beemers every day while driving his used Toyota is in the free and clear.

However, that's quite backwards. As I've said all along, "greed" is a matter of the heart. So in answer to your next question, "How do we measure greed", the answer by looking at the heart. "But we can't see people's hearts." True. But we expose our hearts for the world to see every time we open our mouths, according to Jesus;

Luke 6:45 (NIV)
A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.
​

So when you talk to someone about something and all they can say is "mansions and Beemers!" for years on end (just as an example ), I don't particularly care how much they protest that it's because they're concerned with poor people. Our mouths betray us and show what is in our hearts. If the heart is full of mansions and Beemers, then it will come out, again... and again... and again... OTOH, if the heart is full of the desire to give, that too will come out.

The bottom line is you can't look at someone's car and determine if they're greedy. Just because someone has a more expensive car than you does not indicate that they are greedy. What I am more interested in knowing is what is in their heart, and the best way we have to gauge that is by listening to the things that come out of their mouth.

Click to expand...

looky here, above repraoach, that would mean they must meet a standard, than one is evaluated on, or they get reproached, stop acting like peter and Paul did not think people can spot things wrong. Text bro, text...

Can we spot the other issues, and evaluate in the list here? It says upright and holy, and those are heart issues interconnected here, so you are wrong.


Titus 1:7 For an overseer, as God's steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain, 8 but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined. 9 He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.

looky here, like peter and paul, said to do something we can't evalute them about, even though they said it knowing an evalutaion would be made? Yet u seem to think we can't evaluate.


1 tim 3:3 not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money.



1 peter 5:2 Be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, serving as overseers--not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve;


And please, stop acting like actions externally, don't reflect the heart, greedy people did an action here externally. In the greedy condition of their hearts, they exploited others, that is text ferryaaa



2 Peter 2:3 And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

probinson said:

Perhaps giving isn't nearly as complicated as this thread is making it out to be. Perhaps it really is as simple as having a generous heart, and giving cheerfully as you determine in your heart and as the Spirit leads and guides.

Click to expand...

Sounds right to me

Frogster said:

oh my, isn't all this a bit overdone? You said it was a matter of the heart, so i posted a verse that connects greed to posessions.

Click to expand...

No you didn't. You posted a verse which shows that life isn't about possessions. It also handily showed that greed is a matter of the heart. Here it is again, since you apparently missed it the first time;

Frogster said:

I was right in my usage.

Click to expand...

Not only was your usage incorrect, you also had to change what it said to fit your argument.

Frogster said:

now, the text gives guidelines. It says they can't be greedy, so that would mean that there must be a way to know if they are greedy, no?

Click to expand...

Yep. And I already showed you how to do that from "text". You're just ignoring the "text" that shows you to be dead wrong.

Frogster said:

If it says they can't have idols, and we see little statues, we make an evalutation, if we see little statues in their homes. If it says they can't drink to much, and we see one always drunk, we make an evaluation, if it says they can't be angry, and we see them always yelling or red in the face, we make an evalutation. So what, oh what, do we do when we see a mansion living, beemer driving preacher, who takes money from the poor. Do we evaluate?

Click to expand...

Sure. But we "evaluate" not based on where they live or what kind of car they drive, but rather based on what is in their heart, which is handily exposed by the things that come out of their mouth.

probinson said:

No you didn't. You posted a verse which shows that life isn't about possessions. It also handily showed that greed is a matter of the heart. Here it is again, since you apparently missed it the first time;

Luke 12:15 (AMP)
And He said to them, Guard yourselves and keep free from all covetousness (the immoderate desire for wealth, the greedy longing to have more); for a man’s life does not consist in and is not derived from possessing overflowing abundance or that which is over and above his needs.
​

Not only was your usage incorrect, you also had to change what it said to fit your argument.



Yep. And I already showed you how to do that from "text". You're just ignoring the "text" that shows you to be dead wrong.



Sure. But we "evaluate" not based on where they live or what kind of car they drive, but rather based on what is in their heart, which is handily exposed by the things that come out of their mouth.

Click to expand...

but i proved the connection of the inner world, to the outter, just like Jesus used the possesions with the greed. U r wrong.

does the heart often get manifested in the external world?


how can u act like it doesn't? Look at the history of israel, when thier hearts were wrong, the externals followed, idols, intermarrying etc.


1.Ezekiel 14:3
“Son of man, these men have taken their idols into their hearts, and set the stumbling block of their iniquity before their faces. Should I indeed let myself be consulted by them?

2.Ezekiel 14:5
that I may lay hold of the hearts of the house of Israel, who are all estranged from me through their idols.

and lets start using a real translation too.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Then He said to them, "Beware, and be on your guard against every form of greed; for not even when one has an abundance does his life consist of his possessions."


Darby Bible Translation
And he said to them, Take heed and keep yourselves from all covetousness, for it is not because a man is in abundance that his life is in his possessions.


Young's Literal Translation
And he said unto them, 'Observe, and beware of the covetousness, because not in the abundance of one's goods is his life.'