Redshift Questions and Answers

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dad

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"In physics (especially astrophysics), redshift happens when light seen coming from an object that is moving away is proportionally increased in wavelength,..."

Redshift - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



"Assuming a sinusoidal wave moving at a fixed wave speed, wavelength is inversely proportional to frequency:"

Wavelength - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Pretty basic stuff. Now to start with a question....why assume a fixed speed?

Because when it is, THEN the wavelength is inversely proportional to the frequency.

If the wave speed is not fixed, then the relationship is more complex and the simple relationship above does not apply.
 
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Delphiki

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Pretty basic stuff. Now to start with a question....why assume a fixed speed?


We don't assume. We already know that C is a constant in a vacuum, and is the "speed limit" as you're thankfully willing to accept in your avatar. It's relativity, daddy-o. Nothing is known to exceed the speed of light. It's a demonstrable observation, not an assumption.

I have a question for you, however: I remember you saying that the limit of our solar system is where our same-state laws of physics end. How do you now answer for Voyager's journey beyond the heliopause and our ability to still communicate with it by knowing the speed of light?

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/space/story/2012-06-18/voyager-solar-system/55743734/1

Voyager is nearly 17 light-hours away from Earth now. Our ability to still communicate with it depends a lot on our knowledge of C being "fixed".
 
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OllieFranz

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"In physics (especially astrophysics), redshift happens when light seen coming from an object that is moving away is proportionally increased in wavelength,..."

Redshift - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



"Assuming a sinusoidal wave moving at a fixed wave speed, wavelength is inversely proportional to frequency:"

Wavelength - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Pretty basic stuff. Now to start with a question....why assume a fixed speed?

A full answer to your question would take longer than you would be willing to listen, but the most important parts can be summarized fairly succinctly.

1) The second article you link to is talking about waves in general, and not light waves in particular. What it says is also true of sound waves, percussive waves (siesmic waves, water waves, etc) and many other kinds of waves that do travel at different speeds.

2) "Assume that wave speed is constant" is math-speak for look only at those cases where speed is constant as a first step in working out an equation. Often in quantifying scientific observations, the first step is to consider cases wher most of the variables are held constant, and then one-by-one add in the effects of cases where each of those variables is allowed to change.

3) The Michelson-Morley experiment was expected to confirm the speed and direction of the ether. It was supposed to do this by quantifying the Doppler effect on speed of light in different directions. But, while there was some Doppler red-shifting, the percieved speed did not change from the initial speed. From the point of view of Newtonian physics, M-M failed.

4) Relativity was born from the ashes of the M-M experiment when Einstein asked "What would it mean if M-M did not fail, but instead light does move at the same constant speed for all observers in all reference frames?" Following the equations that led to, Einstein was able to come up with several "thought experiments" that would help decide if the Universe acts like "c" is constant. When scientists conducted those experiments, it was confirmed that the answers Einstein's equations give occur, rather than the answer Newton's equations do.

So the "simple" answer to your question is the assumption was only temporary to give a starting point, but that has nothing to do with the speed of light. We call the speed of light a constant because it happens to be a constant and every experiment only goes to prove it further.
 
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dad

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Because when it is, THEN the wavelength is inversely proportional to the frequency.
OK.
If the wave speed is not fixed, then the relationship is more complex and the simple relationship above does not apply.
How do you determine wave speed for light a billion light years away then?
 
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dad

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We don't assume. We already know that C is a constant in a vacuum, and is the "speed limit" as you're thankfully willing to accept in your avatar.

Ha. But I accept it only in town. How would I know about far away? Not like we tested out there. Now, in a vacuum, seems to involve space, is that right?
It's relativity, daddy-o. Nothing is known to exceed the speed of light. It's a demonstrable observation, not an assumption.
Speed has time involved. If time far away was part of what was different, I guess the ratios of distance to time we assume here are out the proverbial window. Unless of course we knew that time and space and etc were the same far away as near earth. That could not be known unless distance was known...and around and round you go.
I have a question for you, however: I remember you saying that the limit of our solar system is where our same-state laws of physics end. How do you now answer for Voyager's journey beyond the heliopause and our ability to still communicate with it by knowing the speed of light?
No. I have no idea if or where any limit would be.

Voyager is nearly 17 light-hours away from Earth now. Our ability to still communicate with it depends a lot on our knowledge of C being "fixed".
Right...big fishbowl! But of course if time did start to be somewhat different how would we know from this end?
 
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dad

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A full answer to your question would take longer than you would be willing to listen, but the most important parts can be summarized fairly succinctly.

1) The second article you link to is talking about waves in general, and not light waves in particular. What it says is also true of sound waves, percussive waves (siesmic waves, water waves, etc) and many other kinds of waves that do travel at different speeds.
OK, but wouldn't that make it true of light waves involved in redshift then?

2) "Assume that wave speed is constant" is math-speak for look only at those cases where speed is constant as a first step in working out an equation. Often in quantifying scientific observations, the first step is to consider cases wher most of the variables are held constant, and then one-by-one add in the effects of cases where each of those variables is allowed to change.
So whatever step it may be in your mind, in the end, you assume that a wave speed is constant, no?

3) The Michelson-Morley experiment was expected to confirm the speed and direction of the ether. It was supposed to do this by quantifying the Doppler effect on speed of light in different directions. But, while there was some Doppler red-shifting, the percieved speed did not change from the initial speed. From the point of view of Newtonian physics, M-M failed.
Ether? Define....? Have we some on earth?
4) Relativity was born from the ashes of the M-M experiment when Einstein asked "What would it mean if M-M did not fail, but instead light does move at the same constant speed for all observers in all reference frames?" Following the equations that led to, Einstein was able to come up with several "thought experiments" that would help decide if the Universe acts like "c" is constant. When scientists conducted those experiments, it was confirmed that the answers Einstein's equations give occur, rather than the answer Newton's equations do.
Except that he had no jurisdiction that I am aware of to apply his little mind experiments far away from earth. What it...is not knowing. The experiments are good near earth. Fine.

So the "simple" answer to your question is the assumption was only temporary to give a starting point, but that has nothing to do with the speed of light. We call the speed of light a constant because it happens to be a constant and every experiment only goes to prove it further.
Did I suggest it had something to do with the speed of light? No. I raised it as an issue where time has to be involved. If time can be changed then everything else is affected proportionately, no?
 
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Frumious Bandersnatch

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I recommend that anyone who might have the mistaken idea that any kind of rational discourse with dad is possible read the first post on this thread to get over your delusion

Stars will fall to earth

of course there are many others he has started such as No Gravity Before Flood but the stars thread is classic FSTDT.
 
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OllieFranz

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I recommend that anyone who might have the mistaken idea that any kind of rational discourse with dad is possible read the first post on this thread to get over your delusion

Stars will fall to earth

of course there are many others he has started such as No Gravity Before Flood but the stars thread is classic FSTDT.

Looking at his replies to my post, I suspect you are probably correct about the futility of expecting a rational conversation with him. Still, since this is the first time I've interacted with him, I feel I should at least respond to his first direct reply to my postings, even if it does prove to be a fool's errand.
 
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dad

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Looking at his replies to my post, I suspect you are probably correct about the futility of expecting a rational conversation with him. Still, since this is the first time I've interacted with him, I feel I should at least respond to his first direct reply to my postings, even if it does prove to be a fool's errand.
Also...my position grows stronger over time..the old threads were just target practice:)
 
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dad

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I recommend that anyone who might have the mistaken idea that any kind of rational discourse with dad is possible read the first post on this thread to get over your delusion

Stars will fall to earth

of course there are many others he has started such as No Gravity Before Flood but the stars thread is classic FSTDT.
Gravity as we know it now will cease to exist. Stars are not the distance or composition you thought either. This I am now confident of.
 
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OllieFranz

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OK, but wouldn't that make it true of light waves involved in redshift then?

Yes, and so it is, even to the point where Newtonian physics allowed for light to travel at varying speeds. Thus, the whole point of the M-M experiment.

So whatever step it may be in your mind, in the end, you assume that a wave speed is constant, no?

No. But in working out the math of the complete situation, I start with examples where I only need to consider how one or two of the variables changing affects the outcome. After I have the more simplified equation accounted for, I add in situations where the other variables (including speed) can also change.

All of this is done on the math side of the process, and does not affect the actual physical situation at all. If speed is variable, it is variable even if I am working out the math for those few cases where it does not happen to vary.

Ether? Define....? Have we some on earth?

Under Newtonian physics, waves have to propagate through some physical medium. Seismic waves propagate through rock, water waves through water, sound waves through air. It was proposed that space was composed, not of hard vacuum, but of a physical substance through which light waves could propagate. This substance was called the "luminiferous ether" (luminiferous being Latin for "light-bearing"). It turns out that the ether, if it exists, is undetectable to modern science, and is not necessary under Relativity, so Relativity ignores it.

Except that he had no jurisdiction that I am aware of to apply his little mind experiments far away from earth. What it...is not knowing. The experiments are good near earth. Fine.

And all of Einstein's thought experiments were written so as to occur on earth. He wrote them as occurring on trains and elevators here on earth. Later writers do change the wording to rocket ships, that is true, but only because we have discovered that starlight does behave exactly the same way in space as light on earth does. It is affected by the gravity of other stars it passes near, Doppler effects produce frequency shifts, including the famous red-shift of receding galaxies, etc.

Is it possible that these effects are caused by factors that are different from those we credit them to? Yes, but in that case, it is extremely unlikely that the effects would be so precisely what we expect them to be.

Did I suggest it had something to do with the speed of light? No. I raised it as an issue where time has to be involved. If time can be changed then everything else is affected proportionately, no?

You've lost me here. Perhaps you are referring to something you proposed in a different thread, but I don't see any reference to time being different in space in your OP in this thread. So I have no idea what you are trying to say.
 
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dad

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Yes, and so it is, even to the point where Newtonian physics allowed for light to travel at varying speeds. Thus, the whole point of the M-M experiment.

M&M aside...the question remains what light does far away.


No. But in working out the math of the complete situation, I start with examples where I only need to consider how one or two of the variables changing affects the outcome. After I have the more simplified equation accounted for, I add in situations where the other variables (including speed) can also change.
No matter when you take away or add anything, the variables need to be known. So does the space and time and laws in any area far away where you seek to apply your numbers.

All of this is done on the math side of the process, and does not affect the actual physical situation at all. If speed is variable, it is variable even if I am working out the math for those few cases where it does not happen to vary.
False. Inside the math the speed or time or etc is a part of the equation itself.



Under Newtonian physics, waves have to propagate through some physical medium. Seismic waves propagate through rock, water waves through water, sound waves through air. It was proposed that space was composed, not of hard vacuum, but of a physical substance through which light waves could propagate. This substance was called the "luminiferous ether" (luminiferous being Latin for "light-bearing"). It turns out that the ether, if it exists, is undetectable to modern science, and is not necessary under Relativity, so Relativity ignores it.
The I guess we can too, why bring it up?
And all of Einstein's thought experiments were written so as to occur on earth.
Bingo.

He wrote them as occurring on trains and elevators here on earth. Later writers do change the wording to rocket ships, that is true, but only because we have discovered that starlight does behave exactly the same way in space as light on earth does.
In some limited ways perhaps, but then again, that is only ..as seen from earth!
It is affected by the gravity of other stars it passes near,
Proof? How do you know it is the gravity? (and how much)
Doppler effects produce frequency shifts, including the famous red-shift of receding galaxies, etc.
Yes they do...however what makes redshift far away is an open question. It may not be the same as here. The other issue is distance. If stars are actually smaller and closer, for example, then you would need to recalculate. There is no way to determine distance unless we know that earth space and time and laws extend to the star.
Is it possible that these effects are caused by factors that are different from those we credit them to? Yes, but in that case, it is extremely unlikely that the effects would be so precisely what we expect them to be.
If time were different far far away, for example, then we would need to look at your claim.

You've lost me here. Perhaps you are referring to something you proposed in a different thread, but I don't see any reference to time being different in space in your OP in this thread. So I have no idea what you are trying to say.

The universe is not homogeneous, most likely. So in a stretched out heavens, we may find time ununiform and different real far away. Space itself also...and etc!

Bow gracefully....and exit..:)
 
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Delphiki

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Right...big fishbowl! But of course if time did start to be somewhat different how would we know from this end?

We wouldn't without any reason of evidence. And guess what? We don't have any evidence that time is any different. and we only have evidence that it's the same. I think I gave you this answer many times before, too, in other threads. Just not sure when it will begin to sink in, or if it ever will.
 
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dad

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We wouldn't without any reason of evidence. And guess what? We don't have any evidence that time is any different.
Yoiu are saying you would not know then, OK. I have to agree, how could you, being earth bound?

and we only have evidence that it's the same.
No, not really. First of all define "it"? If you mean for example, that ste stars which you imagine to be a certain distance from us, obeying our time and laws and in our space..well, that is a stretch.


Science knows not even what space is! Nor what time is! How would you expect, then detailed accounts of each far beyond where man has ever been? This doesn't strike me as an argument from knowledge, or strength.
 
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