Question about employment and ethical time keeping

Elevator man

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Pardon the question that I have, but this is I believe the only place I’ll find good solid advice at this time. Please keep in mind while reading the question below, that the result of my actions can have an effect on others at work as well as my own well being.

I have been working for a large construction contractor for the last 6 months. This isn’t just a job for me, it’s really a dream come true due to the benefits, and I believe God placed me where I am for more than one reason. Let me explain why: I spent the first 12 years of my adult life abusing alcohol and drugs, addicted to everything sinful after being raised in a Bible believing church, and finally through the help of a Bible based halfway house, I was able to kick the bad habits and even found myself preaching the Gospel to troubled young men like myself. That was over 4 years ago, I maintained 100% sobriety since, and am hoping to fix a whole lot more with the help of my new-ish job (under 6 months since hired).

Considering a large percentage of construction workers have addiction problems, I figured I couldn’t have found a better place to share my experiences and how I personally conquered my addictions. Although my church attendance has been spotted lately, I still find myself reading the Bible and praying regularly, I’ve even found those around me asking for advice, and I’m speaking of people that typically wouldn’t take advice from a new guy on the job. I can’t say I’ve been the best representative of Christ, but I’m doing the best I can given the circumstances (let’s just say my journeyman I was placed with has the number of the beast, in house address numbers, on his work cart).

I’m going to try to simplify this the best I can as there are many factors. I found myself helping the foreman move some materials towards the middle of the day, the day before Thanksgiving. He had stated that the general contractor wanted everyone off the job at 2pm and he wasn’t all that excited about sticking around anyways given the holiday weekend. He stated that he had spoken with one of our coworkers, whom had said he didn’t see why we couldn’t just put the full 10 hours on our timesheets given it wasn’t our fault we were being kicked off the job. He just kind of blankly stared at me after informing me of his conversation, and I suggested that if I was in his position I wouldn’t do it as it could not only put his job at risk, but those around him as well (we are responsible for inputting our own hours on an app at the end of the day). He stated that he’d make sure we all put down the same hours, and I responded with a short story about a guy that I used to work with that always wanted to go home early with a full days pay, and his response was “there’s always that one guy.”

At lunchtime, myself and about 4 other coworkers met at the common area where we eat. As I put away my tools, his exact words were: “Go home Mike, we’re all leaving. Just, you know, put down 8 hours.” He sure did look uneasy when he told me how many hours to put down, but I just said okay and hurried out the door as most anyone would the day before a holiday. Let me finish by saying we started at 7, worked until 12ish, and were told to get off the job by 2pm by the general contractor, which would put us at 7 hours max if we skipped lunch.

After reading this, most anyone could assume that if our supervisor found out we were kicked off site at 2pm, it sure would be obvious we were stealing time. Without this job, I’d probably end up homeless, my son wouldn’t receive the much needed benefits he is about to get in 2 weeks when my probationary period is up, and I’d have a hard time explaining why I was fired to potential employers. For all I know, the foreman discussed this with the supervisor, but that part wasn’t discussed with me.

Any suggestions on what to do? I’ve considered putting down 6 hours, which is roughly what we worked that day, but I find myself somewhat disgruntled at the fact that I rely on these hours to pay my bills and getting kicked off the job early is a big no in my opinion, and at the same time my personal honesty policy is kicking in, but I don’t want to indirectly blow the whistle on my coworkers. I’ve spoken with my father that’s been in the business for 30+ years and he simply stated he’s surprised that we didn’t record the full 10 hours as that is what his guys would’ve done. Any suggestions?
 
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Elevator man

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Edit: I have until the end of the day to decide on how many hours I put down. Upon checking the union website, it appears the supervisor filled out our OJT sheets with the 8 hours for the day, which makes me wonder if this isn’t some kind of trap.
 
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Pekka

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If the client pays for 10 hours and client wants you out at 6 hours while willing to pay you for 10 hours it kind of justifies some of it.

Can you talk this with your supervisors? Or maybe you can request some secondary duties there that you can do while there is nothing to do at the main site? Something to do at office locations etc.
 
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Larniavc

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Edit: I have until the end of the day to decide on how many hours I put down. Upon checking the union website, it appears the supervisor filled out our OJT sheets with the 8 hours for the day, which makes me wonder if this isn’t some kind of trap.
I’d go with what the super put it down as. He carries the can, after all. You can always just say he said it would be fine.

It’s a bit Machiavellian to be a trap.
 
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Elevator man

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If the client pays for 10 hours and client wants you out at 6 hours while willing to pay you for 10 hours it kind of justifies some of it.

Can you talk this with your supervisors? Or maybe you can request some secondary duties there that you can do while there is nothing to do at the main site? Something to do at office locations etc.
I’d agree with you, but I have no idea how billing works. The supervisor is off site, I report to the foreman, but I do have the supervisors number, problem is: they are somehow related. It’s a union job, can’t do anything office related or off site for this employer.
 
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Elevator man

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I’d go with what the super put it down as. He carries the can, after all. You can always just say he said it would be fine.

It’s a bit Machiavellian to be a trap.
Yes, but the foreman does have a relative that gets tossed around job to job that I’m sure would love to get on this job as it’s long term. So in a way, Machiavellianism could be at play? I guess i forgot to add the part about the unbelievably large amount of nepotism in my industry. I’ve been truly blessed to be working on a job site 1 mile from my home for the past 5-1/2 months.
 
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Larniavc

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Yes, but the foreman does have a relative that gets tossed around job to job that I’m sure would love to get on this job as it’s long term. So in a way, Machiavellianism could be at play? I guess i forgot to add the part about the unbelievably large amount of nepotism in my industry. I’ve been truly blessed to be working on a job site 1 mile from my home for the past 5-1/2 months.
I don’t know much about American employment law but isn’t it true that American employers can just sack people if they want to; no excuse needed?
 
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Elevator man

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I don’t know much about American employment law but isn’t it true that American employers can just sack people if they want to; no excuse needed?
It depends on the state, if there is a contract, and if you are union or non-union. I’m sure there are others as well, some people aren’t easily replaceable.
 
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My office does the same thing on the day before Thanksgiving, and it is a common practice in most of the jobs I have held. I get paid for 8 hours even though I am only working a 'half' day. And if I take it off I have to spend 8 hours of PTO.

This is not that unusual to me, but I can see how it is not common in the construction industry.
 
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rjs330

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Ttis really depends on the general contractor. When he said he wanted everyone off the job by 2 pm did that he wasn't paying everyone for 10 hours? Or did it mean he was giving everyone a short term benefit by leaving early and still paying everyone the 10 hours? I don't think we can really answer your question without more information. What was the contractors intent? If his intent was to have everyone done by 2 and only pay you up to 2 then putting down more hours is time theft. Same goes for leaving at noon and then putting in for 8 hours. UNLESS the contractor okays it. They are the ones paying your wages. They set the standard not the employee. If he's good with paying 8 hours even though people work 5-6 hours then that's just fine. He's giving you a benefit. Good for him!

But if he's expecting to pay only for actual hours work then claiming more is time theft and it's dishonest. As a Christian we should be honest in our dealings with others. So I guess long answer short, what was his intent? I'd try and find that out.
 
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rjs330

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I don’t know much about American employment law but isn’t it true that American employers can just sack people if they want to; no excuse needed?
Most of the time yes if they are not in a union it don't have a contract. Most employers won't do that though cause they need the workers. The worker can also claim unemployment for being fired for no reason.
 
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I always claim only the hours I worked. I really appreciate the fact you are questioning others claiming more hours and justifying it in myriad ways. My bible says always use honest scales and balances in our dealings. If they pay you for more hours than you reported, that is up to them. Yet it is up to each individual to be honest in their dealings. If people become dishonest simply because they believe others benefit from the behavior, they likely do not read a bible or want to know God. I applaud your contemplating the matter and not merely following the crowd. Good luck my friend. You are blessed to have work so close to your home. Peace
 
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Tropical Wilds

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Pardon the question that I have, but this is I believe the only place I’ll find good solid advice at this time. Please keep in mind while reading the question below, that the result of my actions can have an effect on others at work as well as my own well being.

I have been working for a large construction contractor for the last 6 months. This isn’t just a job for me, it’s really a dream come true due to the benefits, and I believe God placed me where I am for more than one reason. Let me explain why: I spent the first 12 years of my adult life abusing alcohol and drugs, addicted to everything sinful after being raised in a Bible believing church, and finally through the help of a Bible based halfway house, I was able to kick the bad habits and even found myself preaching the Gospel to troubled young men like myself. That was over 4 years ago, I maintained 100% sobriety since, and am hoping to fix a whole lot more with the help of my new-ish job (under 6 months since hired).

Considering a large percentage of construction workers have addiction problems, I figured I couldn’t have found a better place to share my experiences and how I personally conquered my addictions. Although my church attendance has been spotted lately, I still find myself reading the Bible and praying regularly, I’ve even found those around me asking for advice, and I’m speaking of people that typically wouldn’t take advice from a new guy on the job. I can’t say I’ve been the best representative of Christ, but I’m doing the best I can given the circumstances (let’s just say my journeyman I was placed with has the number of the beast, in house address numbers, on his work cart).

I’m going to try to simplify this the best I can as there are many factors. I found myself helping the foreman move some materials towards the middle of the day, the day before Thanksgiving. He had stated that the general contractor wanted everyone off the job at 2pm and he wasn’t all that excited about sticking around anyways given the holiday weekend. He stated that he had spoken with one of our coworkers, whom had said he didn’t see why we couldn’t just put the full 10 hours on our timesheets given it wasn’t our fault we were being kicked off the job. He just kind of blankly stared at me after informing me of his conversation, and I suggested that if I was in his position I wouldn’t do it as it could not only put his job at risk, but those around him as well (we are responsible for inputting our own hours on an app at the end of the day). He stated that he’d make sure we all put down the same hours, and I responded with a short story about a guy that I used to work with that always wanted to go home early with a full days pay, and his response was “there’s always that one guy.”

At lunchtime, myself and about 4 other coworkers met at the common area where we eat. As I put away my tools, his exact words were: “Go home Mike, we’re all leaving. Just, you know, put down 8 hours.” He sure did look uneasy when he told me how many hours to put down, but I just said okay and hurried out the door as most anyone would the day before a holiday. Let me finish by saying we started at 7, worked until 12ish, and were told to get off the job by 2pm by the general contractor, which would put us at 7 hours max if we skipped lunch.

After reading this, most anyone could assume that if our supervisor found out we were kicked off site at 2pm, it sure would be obvious we were stealing time. Without this job, I’d probably end up homeless, my son wouldn’t receive the much needed benefits he is about to get in 2 weeks when my probationary period is up, and I’d have a hard time explaining why I was fired to potential employers. For all I know, the foreman discussed this with the supervisor, but that part wasn’t discussed with me.

Any suggestions on what to do? I’ve considered putting down 6 hours, which is roughly what we worked that day, but I find myself somewhat disgruntled at the fact that I rely on these hours to pay my bills and getting kicked off the job early is a big no in my opinion, and at the same time my personal honesty policy is kicking in, but I don’t want to indirectly blow the whistle on my coworkers. I’ve spoken with my father that’s been in the business for 30+ years and he simply stated he’s surprised that we didn’t record the full 10 hours as that is what his guys would’ve done. Any suggestions?

Depends on your employer.

Anywhere I’ve worked, if the workplace is closing early during a time that’s not covered under holiday pay, we made up the hours elsewhere if we wanted a full paycheck. Occasionally, if the holiday fell on a weird day, we’d be told to work the partial day and if we worked more than X hours, we’d be paid a full day. If the workplace closed due to an emergency or act of God, we were paid our scheduled shift.

If they closed early due to the holiday, I’d check with your union rep on what to put down. If you can’t, I say put the time down you worked, 6 hours and change, unless you were specifically told you are being paid 8 hours if you work over a certain number of hours. It doesn’t necessarily rat out your co-workers and could easily mean you left early that day because of the holiday. Since time theft is an instantly fireable offense, it seems stupid to put yourself in that position over two hours.

And no, I don’t think anybody should put down 10 unless they’re told to specifically by someone very high up.
 
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Tropical Wilds

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I don’t know much about American employment law but isn’t it true that American employers can just sack people if they want to; no excuse needed?
Yes and no.

Some states, yes, you can terminate people at will, but there are stipulations and the practicality of executing it is difficult. Since at will still means you can’t fire people for protected reasons, most employers still document heavikybbefore firing.
 
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Divide

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Pardon the question that I have, but this is I believe the only place I’ll find good solid advice at this time. Please keep in mind while reading the question below, that the result of my actions can have an effect on others at work as well as my own well being.

I have been working for a large construction contractor for the last 6 months. This isn’t just a job for me, it’s really a dream come true due to the benefits, and I believe God placed me where I am for more than one reason. Let me explain why: I spent the first 12 years of my adult life abusing alcohol and drugs, addicted to everything sinful after being raised in a Bible believing church, and finally through the help of a Bible based halfway house, I was able to kick the bad habits and even found myself preaching the Gospel to troubled young men like myself. That was over 4 years ago, I maintained 100% sobriety since, and am hoping to fix a whole lot more with the help of my new-ish job (under 6 months since hired).

Considering a large percentage of construction workers have addiction problems, I figured I couldn’t have found a better place to share my experiences and how I personally conquered my addictions. Although my church attendance has been spotted lately, I still find myself reading the Bible and praying regularly, I’ve even found those around me asking for advice, and I’m speaking of people that typically wouldn’t take advice from a new guy on the job. I can’t say I’ve been the best representative of Christ, but I’m doing the best I can given the circumstances (let’s just say my journeyman I was placed with has the number of the beast, in house address numbers, on his work cart).

I’m going to try to simplify this the best I can as there are many factors. I found myself helping the foreman move some materials towards the middle of the day, the day before Thanksgiving. He had stated that the general contractor wanted everyone off the job at 2pm and he wasn’t all that excited about sticking around anyways given the holiday weekend. He stated that he had spoken with one of our coworkers, whom had said he didn’t see why we couldn’t just put the full 10 hours on our timesheets given it wasn’t our fault we were being kicked off the job. He just kind of blankly stared at me after informing me of his conversation, and I suggested that if I was in his position I wouldn’t do it as it could not only put his job at risk, but those around him as well (we are responsible for inputting our own hours on an app at the end of the day). He stated that he’d make sure we all put down the same hours, and I responded with a short story about a guy that I used to work with that always wanted to go home early with a full days pay, and his response was “there’s always that one guy.”

At lunchtime, myself and about 4 other coworkers met at the common area where we eat. As I put away my tools, his exact words were: “Go home Mike, we’re all leaving. Just, you know, put down 8 hours.” He sure did look uneasy when he told me how many hours to put down, but I just said okay and hurried out the door as most anyone would the day before a holiday. Let me finish by saying we started at 7, worked until 12ish, and were told to get off the job by 2pm by the general contractor, which would put us at 7 hours max if we skipped lunch.

After reading this, most anyone could assume that if our supervisor found out we were kicked off site at 2pm, it sure would be obvious we were stealing time. Without this job, I’d probably end up homeless, my son wouldn’t receive the much needed benefits he is about to get in 2 weeks when my probationary period is up, and I’d have a hard time explaining why I was fired to potential employers. For all I know, the foreman discussed this with the supervisor, but that part wasn’t discussed with me.

Any suggestions on what to do? I’ve considered putting down 6 hours, which is roughly what we worked that day, but I find myself somewhat disgruntled at the fact that I rely on these hours to pay my bills and getting kicked off the job early is a big no in my opinion, and at the same time my personal honesty policy is kicking in, but I don’t want to indirectly blow the whistle on my coworkers. I’ve spoken with my father that’s been in the business for 30+ years and he simply stated he’s surprised that we didn’t record the full 10 hours as that is what his guys would’ve done. Any suggestions?

I've been in in the trades since the mid 80's and went above the board for myself in 1994. Anyway, I agree with your dad. You were sent out there for a days work. So a white shirt booted you off the job site early. Ok. His perogitive, but that doesnt affect your hours. It shouldnt. I quit from more than one outfit who liked to play games with my hours.

If they're smart they wont bite the hand that feeds them. If they do, move on. I was looking for a job when I found this one. I never had to lie to get a job. I dont have to steal to get ahead. Even a bad business is better than a good job.
(My dad's business & life advice to me...)
 
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Divide

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I havent googled it lately, but it used to be that 96% of the people work for someone else. That means 4% of people are in business for themselves!

There's a lot of new kids in business I keep seeing. We've set the Billion dollar heating industry on it's side with our new heater that heats your whole house in 3 minutes!!! How many watts is it?
200 watts of super hot power! Those guys wont last long, lol.

But like they say, even a bad business is better than a good job, And you're in the trades! You'll never be out of work.
 
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