Beloved Ellen

JohnMarsten · Jun 6, 2012

mmksparbud said:
You have to have some understanding of the way people talk at any point in history and in context with the area. At that time, everything was done by God. If it rained and flooded, it was of God. If lightening struck your son dead, it's an acgt of God----they still say "acts of God" in insurance forms--Remember Joseph? He told his brothers, you meant it for evil, but God meant it for good---So--did God tell the brothers to attack Joseph, or to throw him in the pit?? Did he force them to sell him as a slave, or did He provide the slavers to be there at the right time to provide a way to get Josph to Egypt knowing what would happen? Does that mean He approves of slavery? God uses our choices to take us to the next step, but we have to choose wether to take that step towards Him, or away from Him. He takes the fruit of Satans leading and makes apple pie for His followers--hmmm---I think I like that!! It's like my other favorite saying--God takes the shattered peices of our broken lives and makes a beautiful mosiac.--Poetic, ain't it?
God doesn't force people to say things exactly as He says things--He uses the language of that individual at the time. A rapper might be given the same message as EGW--but they will not be worded the same when they write it down!! But the general idea would end up the same.

So you are implying that we cannot really understand the bible...

no seriously, I understand that when the bible books were written down things were quite different, people had no cell phones for example, communication and logistics werent as developed as they are today, sure thing...

I guess this is the reason why those grape juice theories have come up and plain bible text became null and void...

God does not lead people into sin... well, what is sin?

Sin is everything that goes against the will of God, and if it was Gods will for samson to get that philistine woman that it would have been sin for samson not to do it...

God said thou shalt not murder, and yet he made the israelites kill thousands of people back in the day... quite some slaughter I guess... and yet, have they sinned? they were following God's commands eventually...

God is the sovereign Lord, He can do whatever He wants... this is His greatness...

Stryder06 · Jun 6, 2012

JohnMarsten said:
Well, that surely makes egw a necessity...

She's a "necessity" only because God gave her something for the end time church, not because the bible is impossible to understand without her.

you never know what the plan is, so many people have been martyred, died horribles deaths etc. was this God's plan for them? and besides he killed quite a few guys when he died

He killed quite a few guys when he was alive. And no, it was never God's plan for any of His people to die or be martyred. It happens because of sin. God allows it because it fulfills a purpose, but that wasn't how He wanted it to be.

what does the bible teach on it?

On what? We know what the bible says, but do we know what the bible means?

think about ruth

What does Ruth have to do with anything?

An agent of the devil? well, I dont judge anyone... I just discuss specific cases of being right or wrong...

You actually are judging her. She said that her messages came from God. If you say they're not, you're claiming that she is a liar. Don't forget, this wasn't some random woman giving her two cents about the scripture. This was a woman who said she was called by God to deliver a message to His people. So yeah, you're going to have to make up your mind about that.

would you say that all other denoms, sects etc, were founded by agents of the devil? like LDS, JWs, and what have you

I was waiting for this question. Way to dodge...

First, Ellen didn't found a denomination, so that's an irrelevant point. Second, anyone...ANYONE, who is LYING to God's people, spreading false doctrine, not out of ignorance, but to deceive, is an agent of Satan. I know that's a hard pill to swallow, but that's the way it is. God says if you're not for Him you're against Him, and if you aren't gathering with Him, you're scattering abroad.

I know it's easy to say Ellen was wrong and claim she speaks against the bible, but why are you so shy to follow that logic to it's end? Anyone who speaks the way she did, claiming dreams and visions like she did, has passed the line of ignorance and is either wholly being used by God, or wholly being used by Satan.

JohnMarsten · Jun 6, 2012

Stryder06 said:
She's a "necessity" only because God gave her something for the end time church, not because the bible is impossible to understand without her.

So what is this special something for the end time church that we cannot make do without...???

[/quote]
He killed quite a few guys when he was alive. And no, it was never God's plan for any of His people to die or be martyred. It happens because of sin. God allows it because it fulfills a purpose, but that wasn't how He wanted it to be.[/quote]

Well, I believe that God is able to intervene at any given time, even the hair on your head is numbered...

[/quote]
On what? We know what the bible says, but do we know what the bible means?[/quote]

Can we know it without EGW?

[/quote]
What does Ruth have to do with anything? [/quote]

She was not a member of God's designated people, that means that whoever married her committed sin, is that right?

[/quote]
You actually are judging her. She said that her messages came from God. If you say they're not, you're claiming that she is a liar. Don't forget, this wasn't some random woman giving her two cents about the scripture. This was a woman who said she was called by God to deliver a message to His people. So yeah, you're going to have to make up your mind about that.
[/quote]

I also that she wasnt really healthy in the mental department, anything is possible here, - does a false prophecy make somebody an agent of the devil?

I was waiting for this question. Way to dodge...[/quote]

First, Ellen didn't found a denomination, so that's an irrelevant point. Second, anyone...ANYONE, who is LYING to God's people, spreading false doctrine, not out of ignorance, but to deceive, is an agent of Satan. I know that's a hard pill to swallow, but that's the way it is. God says if you're not for Him you're against Him, and if you aren't gathering with Him, you're scattering abroad.
I know it's easy to say Ellen was wrong and claim she speaks against the bible, but why are you so shy to follow that logic to it's end? Anyone who speaks the way she did, claiming dreams and visions like she did, has passed the line of ignorance and is either wholly being used by God, or wholly being used by Satan.[/quote]

First I dont believe in 'wholly' but lets not dive into this realm, but then you didnt answer my question, so was the founder of LDS (Joseph Smith) a satanic agent?

BobRyan · Jun 6, 2012

BobRyan said:
BobRyan said:

The Bible says "not to be unequally yoked" -- Samson is in direct violation of that law.

Ezra forces the marriages with non-Jews in the OT to be broken claiming that they are all against God Word. Ezra 9, and 10. Nehemiah also declares this to be sin - a direct transgression against God in Nehemiah 13.

In David's day he numbers the people - in direct violation against God. David's own commander in charge of the army argues against it because even HE knows it is sin. But the Bible says it is of the Lord for He was seeking cause against Israel.

There is a plague to punish that sin - that kills 70,000 in Israel. David intercedes with God saying that it is HE who has sinned and that God should not punish Israel for HIS sin. A guilt and sin offering is made and the plague ends.

You are arguing this whole point as if these cases where the Bible says either "an evil spirit from the Lord" (in the case of king Saul) or "this thing was of the Lord" is able to cancel out the sin that is associated when evil men are tempted or moved to do something wrong.

The Bible never excuses their sins - not even in these cases.

There is a difference between the sovereign acts of God knowing the end from the beginning and the will of God stating that no man should ever sin or transgress His law. Yet He used wicked evil kings to punish Israel - was he excusing those evil kings of their sins and idol worship, and murders?

--================================

We also have the point that the Bible tells us that Ruth was the servant of God and Delilah was the servant of evil. So even if they were both Jews - it would be "unequally yoked" to marry Delilah.

It is just like the story of 1Sam 28 where we are told that Samuel is speaking -- but the context is a seance conducted by a witch - something God condemned. This tells us that in fact it is not really Samuel speaking - but the familiar spirit of a witch. We are informed by the context as to the real meaning because the text itself says God was forbidding communion with the dead AND God was forbidding any prophet to speak to Saul (much less to jump at the beck and call of a witch) and that God had condemned the witches to death. Thus we can know that even given the 1Sam 28 story - prayers to the dead are not valid, that conjuring dead saints is not something witches can really do etc, and that this is not what is going on in 1Sam 28.

Click to expand...

JohnMarsten said:

however, I cannot find a text in the bible that states that it was the Lord's doing, to make saul visit a witch. \ the bible just states what he did

So from what I understand, we use reasoning in order to declare the word of God null

Click to expand...

Not at all.

I am pointing out that if you want to eisegete the 1Sam 28 text about witches (or the example of Solomon, or David numbering the people) by ignoring the context then there are a lot of other places you will need to go - so as to get odd views of the Bible in the same manner. It does not end by simply tossing context out in one place as you may be supposing for a solution.

Turns out that context is key in all the examples I give above.

Your idea that paying attention to context makes the Bible null and void - does not follow.

in Christ,

Bob

JohnMarsten · Jun 6, 2012

BobRyan said:
BobRyan said:

Not at all.

I am pointing out that if you want to eisegete the 1Sam 28 text about witches (or the example of Solomon, or David numbering the people) by ignoring the context then there are a lot of other places you will need to go - so as to get odd views of the Bible in the same manner. It does not end by simply tossing context out in one place as you may be supposing for a solution.

Turns out that context is key in all the examples I give above.

Your idea that paying attention to context makes the Bible null and void - does not follow.

in Christ,

Bob

Click to expand...

4 But his father and his mother knew not that it was of the Lord, that he sought an occasion against the Philistines: for at that time the Philistines had dominion over Israel.

it says that the parents didnt know it was of the Lord...

so what was of the Lord? His not intervening with the decision because of a greater goal?

if we believe EGW, we must come to the conclusion that it wasnt of the Lord...

Stryder06 · Jun 6, 2012

JohnMarsten said:
So what is this special something for the end time church that we cannot make do without...???

Health reform and the sacredness of God's law for starters.

Well, I believe that God is able to intervene at any given time, even the hair on your head is numbered...

You've lost me here...

Can we know it without EGW?

I'm pretty sure this has been pointed out to you already. Even your argument about what she said in regards to Samson was something I had already understood without having read what she said.

She was not a member of God's designated people, that means that whoever married her committed sin, is that right?

We covered this already. She converted - "Your people will be my people, and your God will be my God..."

I also that she wasnt really healthy in the mental department, anything is possible here, - does a false prophecy make somebody an agent of the devil?

How do you know she wasn't "healthy in the mental department"? Given she's written more books then most people will read in a lifetime, that's a bit of a stretch. And a false prophecy doesn't make someone an agent of Satan (some people get caught up in a false sense of zeal, which is not unforgivable). Intentionally lying to people and deceiving them however would make you an agent of the adversary. And given that Ellen was quite clear that either she was for God or against Him; that her messages were from God or not, you can't say otherwise. You simply have to choose. Friend or Foe. There is no in-between here.

First I dont believe in 'wholly' but lets not dive into this realm, but then you didnt answer my question, so was the founder of LDS (Joseph Smith) a satanic agent?

Don't know much about Joseph Smith. But it's quite possible.

mmksparbud · Jun 6, 2012

Johnboy---you are starting to worry me---you either didn't read what I said--and asked--or you're ignoring the questions. Sooooo----I asked some questions--I'm not just flapping my gums here--errr---fingers, that is. You are also ignoring what others said. Ok--I'll try again. God doesn't send someone to rob a bank so that they can pay their tithe---God will not send a man to have a homosexual relationship with an aids infected man so that God can show His glory and heal both of them!! God is not telling anyone to smoke so they can get lung cancer and then the elders can come and anoint him and--glory be--God has removed the cancer. It wasn't God's will for Samson to marry a Philistine woman so that Samson could then kill a bunch of Philistines---but it was God's will that whatever Samson did, God would work it out so that His will will still be done. We have free will---Samson could have decided, No--I won't marry someone that God does not approve of--God would have done things in a different way then. It was of God for Samson to free the Isrealites from the Philistines. Why are you soooooooo determined to make God into someone He isn't??? God did not tell David to have sex with a married woman, kill her husband so he could marry her and so then God could give them Solomon!!! Yah--God said to kill some people, He even said to kill the women and children (that really bothered me for a long time!)--but sometimes people have become so sinful that God has had to wipe them out. As in the flood, as in Sodom and Gomorrah, as when Elijah ahd Jezabel's priests killed, as when He told Saul to kill everybody (oh, heck, can't remember their names right now) anyway, the king was spared and because His instructions were not followed, years later He had to deal with Haamon, a descendent of the one they didn't kill. So poor Esther had to then step in. And no, God didn't tell Esther to marry a heathen King, she was forced to follow the orders of the king of the land, God knew what was going to happen so He allowed the marriage in order to save the Jews. As He allowed the marriage of Samson so He could use that to deal with the Philistines. BUT GOD DID NOT TELL THEM TO SIN IN ORDER TO FULFILL HIS PLAN--WE'LL NEVER KNOW WHAT OTHER PLAN WOULD HAVE BEEN PUT IN MOTION HAD SAMSON DONE THE RIGHT THING. He also did not have Samson go to Delila so she could seduce him into spilling the secrete of his strength so that Samson could be blinded, so that Samson would bring down the temple. How far are you going to carry this thing??!!!

asiyreh · Jun 6, 2012

Well this has has gone a little off topic hehe. I must say I've enjoyed it though. My pastor showed me a number of scriptures today which answered my original question, not least of all this one.

Acts 18:26 - So he began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Aquila and Priscilla heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately.

Seems almost providential at the moment lol.

John I think you've got the judgments of God a little skewed here.

1. We don't know what exactly was going on in these nations, however there are certain suggestions of human sacrifice, strange practices involving animals and children and the like... I'm sure I don't need to outline all the finer details.

2. God always offers a strong clear warning and mercy to those who will repent before judgement. God told Jonah to offer mercy to the Assyrians, Jonah actually didn't want to give them the opportunity, so you can imagine how disgusted even he must have been with this society. However those who want mercy always get it through repentance, Rahab at Jerico, Ruth from the Moabites. Didn't God say he would save Sodom for the sake of 10 righteous men?

3. He often gives long periods of grace before judgement, the Amalekites we're given hundreds of years, the pre flood people, over a hundred years and God has told us, the pre flooders walked all day long in corruption with nothing but sin on their minds. Imagine the complete debauchery of these people. i'm pretty sure I remember something about how God held the Jews from the Canaanites because they hadn't yet reached complete abandonment of morality but eventually they got to a stage were God was completely disgusted and bam.

Also ask yourself what you'd think about a God that wouldn't judge complete moral corruption of the types outlined above. What would this place be like if he hadn't stepped in over time and removed a few sections of peps from the earth. Wouldn't be a place I'd want to live in.

Also never forget that God sacrificed himself in the form of the completely innocent Christ, for you and any of these ^ people up there that accepted his grace.

David Conklin · Jun 6, 2012

>How to we explain the whole Ellen White thing in the light of -
1 Timothy 2 : 11-13

First of all, you go all the way to the end of the chapter which is verse 15.

Secondly, what do you do abnout the 10 female prophets in the Bible?

David Conklin · Jun 6, 2012

>First, Ellen didn't found a denomination, so that's an irrelevant point.

Thank you!

ricker · Jun 6, 2012

David Conklin said:
>How to we explain the whole Ellen White thing in the light of -
1 Timothy 2 : 11-13

First of all, you go all the way to the end of the chapter which is verse 15.

Secondly, what do you do abnout the 10 female prophets in the Bible?

I don't understand why you SDA's have a woman prophet, but don't ordain them. Get with the program! The Timothy passage made literal sense at the time, but is now dated by a few hundred years.

BobRyan · Jun 6, 2012

The Bible says "not to be unequally yoked" -- Samson is in direct violation of that law.

Ezra forces the marriages with non-Jews in the OT to be broken claiming that they are all against God Word. Ezra 9, and 10. Nehemiah also declares this to be sin - a direct transgression against God in Nehemiah 13.

In David's day he numbers the people - in direct violation against God. David's own commander in charge of the army argues against it because even HE knows it is sin. But the Bible says it is of the Lord for He was seeking cause against Israel.

There is a plague to punish that sin - that kills 70,000 in Israel. David intercedes with God saying that it is HE who has sinned and that God should not punish Israel for HIS sin. A guilt and sin offering is made and the plague ends.

You are arguing this whole point as if these cases where the Bible says either "an evil spirit from the Lord" (in the case of king Saul) or "this thing was of the Lord" is able to cancel out the sin that is associated when evil men are tempted or moved to do something wrong.

The Bible never excuses their sins - not even in these cases.

There is a difference between the sovereign acts of God knowing the end from the beginning and the will of God stating that no man should ever sin or transgress His law. Yet He used wicked evil kings to punish Israel - was he excusing those evil kings of their sins and idol worship, and murders?

--================================

We also have the point that the Bible tells us that Ruth was the servant of God and Delilah was the servant of evil. So even if they were both Jews - it would be "unequally yoked" to marry Delilah.

It is just like the story of 1Sam 28 where we are told that Samuel is speaking -- but the context is a seance conducted by a witch - something God condemned. This tells us that in fact it is not really Samuel speaking - but the familiar spirit of a witch. We are informed by the context as to the real meaning because the text itself says God was forbidding communion with the dead AND God was forbidding any prophet to speak to Saul (much less to jump at the beck and call of a witch) and that God had condemned the witches to death. Thus we can know that even given the 1Sam 28 story - prayers to the dead are not valid, that conjuring dead saints is not something witches can really do etc, and that this is not what is going on in 1Sam 28.

JohnMarsten said:
4 But his father and his mother knew not that it was of the Lord, that he sought an occasion against the Philistines: for at that time the Philistines had dominion over Israel.

it says that the parents didnt know it was of the Lord...

And so on with other examples already listed.

Ignoring context -- The text says that "Samuel said" in 1Sam 28.

Ignoring context -- The "text says" that "it was of the Lord"

2 Samuel 24 "24 Now again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel, and it incited David against them to say, “ Go, number Israel and Judah.” 2 The king said to Joab the commander of the army who was with him, “Go about now through all the tribes of Israel, from Dan to Beersheba, and register the people, that I may know the number of the people.” 3 But Joab said to the king, “ Now may the Lord your God add to the people a hundred times as many as they are, while the eyes of my lord the king still see; but why does my lord the king delight in this thing?

So David said to the Lord, “ I have sinned greatly in what I have done. But now, O Lord, please take away the iniquity of Your servant, for I have acted very foolishly....

17 Then David spoke to the Lord when he saw the angel who was striking down the people, and said, “Behold, it is I who have sinned, and it is I who have done wrong; but these sheep, what have they done? Please let Your hand be against me and against my father’s house.”

Game over.

1Chron 21

21 Then Satan stood up against Israel and moved David to number Israel.

in Christ,

Bob

Stryder06 · Jun 7, 2012

ricker said:
I don't understand why you SDA's have a woman prophet, but don't ordain them. Get with the program! The Timothy passage made literal sense at the time, but is now dated by a few hundred years.

I'm certain Deborah was never crowned Queen despite being a prophet. God calls both men and women to certain positions. Some are particular to one or the other, while some are shared between the two.

David Conklin · Jun 8, 2012

>"BECAUSE they didnt it was caused by the Lord Himself, for He searched for an opportunity to cause some trouble to the Philistines...

this is plain bible teaching!"

If it was so plain then why didn't you show the biblical support for it?

David Conklin · Jun 8, 2012

Originally Posted by David Conklin
>How to we explain the whole Ellen White thing in the light of -
1 Timothy 2 : 11-13

First of all, you go all the way to the end of the chapter which is verse 15.

Secondly, what do you do abnout the 10 female prophets in the Bible?

I don't understand why you SDA's have a woman prophet, but don't ordain them. Get with the program! The Timothy passage made literal sense at the time, but is now dated by a few hundred years.

Interesting remarks that are non sequitur.

BTW, one does not ordain prophets. They are chosen by God.

JohnMarsten · Jun 9, 2012

David Conklin said:
>"BECAUSE they didnt it was caused by the Lord Himself, for He searched for an opportunity to cause some trouble to the Philistines...

this is plain bible teaching!"

If it was so plain then why didn't you show the biblical support for it?

I did!

go search the thread...

ricker · Jun 10, 2012

David Conklin ]Interesting remarks that are non sequitur.

BTW, one does not ordain prophets. They are chosen by God'

Does 1 Timothy 2 say anything about ordination??

12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet

Is that the way you all treat Ellen?

Stryder06 · Jun 11, 2012

ricker said:
Does 1 Timothy 2 say anything about ordination??

12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet

Is that the way you all treat Ellen?

Text must be taken in context. Did not Paul say that God gave some to be prophets? Didn't God say that "your sons and daughters will prophesy..."?

Isn't a prophet a messenger of God?

Funny thing is that the whole controversy over Ellen is because of this one question. If she can be proven false, then one need not heed her council. If she is a true however, then one can't deny her council lest they find themselves denying council from God.

JohnMarsten · Jun 11, 2012

Stryder06 said:
Text must be taken in context. Did not Paul say that God gave some to be prophets? Didn't God say that "your sons and daughters will prophesy..."?

Isn't a prophet a messenger of God?

Funny thing is that the whole controversy over Ellen is because of this one question. If she can be proven false, then one need not heed her council. If she is a true however, then one can't deny her council lest they find themselves denying council from God.

yes, a prophet is a messenger of God...!

... your sons and daughters... yes... the thing here is that the gift of prophecy seems to be exclusively given to egw... the NT gives the impression as if this gift was readily available in the church...

SO! if Paul speaks about the gift of prophecy, then why dont we get any prophecies? where have they gone? I mean if there were indeed prophets, then what kind of prophecies did they utter? I mean, we only have those epistles from Paul... so IMHO these kind of prophets might have been local prophets who helped out their local brethren... there might have even been a few prophets in each congregation...

now I understand that this whole thread was in regard to a womans authority and her as a teacher which was not allowed by Paul...

so when we have a prophet , who seems to be a messenger, then we can assume that Paul isnt speaking about teaching and authority but rather as messengers... probably... so there could be a difference between a prophet (prophetess) and teachers or people with authority over doctrinal issues...

one way or the other egw, as I have alreadys stated, claimed to have been more than a prophet...

the idea behind egw doesnt seem to be so bad at first... she is called the lesser light that leads to the greater light...

but how can we understand the concept behind those two lights...

generally speaking I dont think it means that egw will bring people to the bible... as if they had never heard of it before and egw made them aware that such a book exists... moreover it cannot mean that she is the lesser god that brings people to the greater One... that would be foolishness...

so what is it?

In reality people might have already been familar with the bible in some way... so I guess the idea is that egw will bring people to a greater understanding (not to be confused with the greater light) of bible matters... I have even known a guy who told me that he even doesnt read the bible... its boring to him... he reads books, not only egw, but all kinds of SDA authors... and then after he has read he just double checks if it is really so... and I think this the reality behind egw... AUTHORITY not only over doctrinal issues but general interpretation of the bible... and even understanding God...like which things are abominations to him (women wearing trousers for e.g.).

And as it is frequently stated she is the messenger for present time... so people cannot know what God really want from us, if they dont heed her councel, her teaching (which is of course said to be inspired by God)... so without her, there cant really be proper spiritual living... as it is only her who knows whats going on or what should be going on and what shouldnt...

Personally, I have witnessed and personally experienced many, many wrongs done to people, especially by parents which have resulted in serious consequences... but that is another issue that I wouldnt wanna discuss here, as it doesnt proove anything...

so in the end I would say, Yes, her writings claim to be authoritive on scripture and not only...

cesty · Jun 11, 2012

Stryder06 said:
If she can be proven false, then one need not heed her council. If she is a true however, then one can't deny her council lest they find themselves denying council from God.

That's not necessarily true. Keep in mind that prophets can still state their opinion on matters, and thus they can sometimes err in their assessment of things. It doesn't make them false prophets because they err in this way, but shows that they are still human.

Take Nathan, for example, he assumed David had God's favor to do what was in his heart concerning building a temple for God. But Nathan later discovered that it wasn't God's will for David to build the temple, but for his son to build it. See 2 Samuel 7:1-17

There are other examples in the Bible, but this should be enough to show that a prophet could err in his or her judgment, and still maintain the office of a prophet. It's what they do after they have been shown to be in error that is the deciding factor of whom they are really serving. If they continue to speak falsehood, then they are not from God, but if they repent, and take measures to correct what they have done wrong, then we should not hold their mistake against them.

Now, when they say, "Thus says Yahweh," then that is something entirely different. For in speaking in this way, they are essentially saying that God gave them a specific message to convey to His people. If that message proves to be contrary to the truth, then we can be sure that the person who said it is not a true prophet. See Deuteronomy 13:1-5.

Indeed, there is a difference between stating an opinion or a belief, and declaring that God said something that He didn't say.

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