Beloved Ellen

[Stryder06]

yes, a prophet is a messenger of God...!

... your sons and daughters... yes... the thing here is that the gift of prophecy seems to be exclusively given to egw... the NT gives the impression as if this gift was readily available in the church...

SO! if Paul speaks about the gift of prophecy, then why dont we get any prophecies? where have they gone? I mean if there were indeed prophets, then what kind of prophecies did they utter? I mean, we only have those epistles from Paul... so IMHO these kind of prophets might have been local prophets who helped out their local brethren... there might have even been a few prophets in each congregation...

now I understand that this whole thread was in regard to a womans authority and her as a teacher which was not allowed by Paul...

so when we have a prophet , who seems to be a messenger, then we can assume that Paul isnt speaking about teaching and authority but rather as messengers... probably... so there could be a difference between a prophet (prophetess) and teachers or people with authority over doctrinal issues...

one way or the other egw, as I have alreadys stated, claimed to have been more than a prophet...

the idea behind egw doesnt seem to be so bad at first... she is called the lesser light that leads to the greater light...

but how can we understand the concept behind those two lights...

generally speaking I dont think it means that egw will bring people to the bible... as if they had never heard of it before and egw made them aware that such a book exists... moreover it cannot mean that she is the lesser god that brings people to the greater One... that would be foolishness...

so what is it?

In reality people might have already been familar with the bible in some way... so I guess the idea is that egw will bring people to a greater understanding (not to be confused with the greater light) of bible matters... I have even known a guy who told me that he even doesnt read the bible... its boring to him... he reads books, not only egw, but all kinds of SDA authors... and then after he has read he just double checks if it is really so... and I think this the reality behind egw... AUTHORITY not only over doctrinal issues but general interpretation of the bible... and even understanding God...like which things are abominations to him (women wearing trousers for e.g.).

And as it is frequently stated she is the messenger for present time... so people cannot know what God really want from us, if they dont heed her councel, her teaching (which is of course said to be inspired by God)... so without her, there cant really be proper spiritual living... as it is only her who knows whats going on or what should be going on and what shouldnt...

Personally, I have witnessed and personally experienced many, many wrongs done to people, especially by parents which have resulted in serious consequences... but that is another issue that I wouldnt wanna discuss here, as it doesnt proove anything...

so in the end I would say, Yes, her writings claim to be authoritive on scripture and not only...

So would you say your understanding of the Bible surpasses Sr White's?

 

[Stryder06]

That's not necessarily true. Keep in mind that prophets can still state their opinion on matters, and thus they can sometimes err in their assessment of things. It doesn't make them false prophets because they err in this way, but shows that they are still human.

Take Nathan, for example, he assumed David had God's favor to do what was in his heart concerning building a temple for God. But Nathan later discovered that it wasn't God's will for David to build the temple, but for his son to build it. See 2 Samuel 7:1-17

There are other examples in the Bible, but this should be enough to show that a prophet could err in his or her judgment, and still maintain the office of a prophet. It's what they do after they have been shown to be in error that is the deciding factor of whom they are really serving. If they continue to speak falsehood, then they are not from God, but if they repent, and take measures to correct what they have done wrong, then we should not hold their mistake against them.

Now, when they say, "Thus says Yahweh," then that is something entirely different. For in speaking in this way, they are essentially saying that God gave them a specific message to convey to His people. If that message proves to be contrary to the truth, then we can be sure that the person who said it is not a true prophet. See Deuteronomy 13:1-5.

Indeed, there is a difference between stating an opinion or a belief, and declaring that God said something that He didn't say.

True enough. Prophet's are still human and as such still have the ability to speak for themselves, and even be wrong about a thing or two. This however isn't what we look at when it comes to Sr White. I wish it were, but sadly it isn't.

 

[ricker]

Text must be taken in context. Did not Paul say that God gave some to be prophets? Didn't God say that "your sons and daughters will prophesy..."?

Isn't a prophet a messenger of God?

Funny thing is that the whole controversy over Ellen is because of this one question. If she can be proven false, then one need not heed her council. If she is a true however, then one can't deny her council lest they find themselves denying council from God.

1 Corinthians 14 39 Therefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues.

I don't mind you following the teachings of Ellen White. I just find it curious you don't ordain women ministers, as I think is proper for Christians to do.

Again, where does 1 Timothy 2 say anything about ordination? Where do you get the distinction that it is OK for a certain woman to be an authority, in fact the authority, in scriptural interpretation, but not allow any women to be ordained? I don't see that in the Timothy text.

 

[JohnMarsten]

So would you say your understanding of the Bible surpasses Sr White's?

That was never the point...

read my posts again and you may come to a deeper understanding of what I mean...

 

[Stryder06]

That was never the point...

read my posts again and you may come to a deeper understanding of what I mean...

It actually is the point. If you say someone is wrong on a subject, you are implying that your understanding is correct, and thus is superior to theirs. You are constantly saying how Ellen is wrong because her explanation of what the scripture says is contrary to what is written. I'm asking you then, since this is typically your stance, if you believe that your understanding is superior to hers.

In short, why should I go with your explanation of what the scripture says instead of hers?

 

[Stryder06]

1 Corinthians 14 39 Therefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues.

I don't mind you following the teachings of Ellen White. I just find it curious you don't ordain women ministers, as I think is proper for Christians to do.

Again, where does 1 Timothy 2 say anything about ordination? Where do you get the distinction that it is OK for a certain woman to be an authority, in fact the authority, in scriptural interpretation, but not allow any women to be ordained? I don't see that in the Timothy text.

Women having authority and women being pastors are two separate things. I don't actually use 1 Tim to justify women NOT being Pastors. I've looked strictly to the examples in the bible. God called 12 men to be His disciples. Those disciples are only seen ever ordaining other men to follow their footsteps.

I don't think there's anything wrong with a woman being used by God. Her messages aren't authoritative in their own power. They are authoritative because they are from God.

 

[JohnMarsten]

It actually is the point. If you say someone is wrong on a subject, you are implying that your understanding is correct, and thus is superior to theirs. You are constantly saying how Ellen is wrong because her explanation of what the scripture says is contrary to what is written. I'm asking you then, since this is typically your stance, if you believe that your understanding is superior to hers.

In short, why should I go with your explanation of what the scripture says instead of hers?

Stryder... you must really have a limited black/white understanding of things... its sounds like the pope is wrong so egw has to be right...

I never implied that my understanding is superior... you know, my understanding is rather open minded and not closed...

 

[Stryder06]

Stryder... you must really have a limited black/white understanding of things... its sounds like the pope is wrong so egw has to be right...

Black and white is where we need to be. Shades of grey are the reason for confusion. Ex:

God said
In the day ye eat of it, ye shall surely die - Black & White

Satan said
Ye shall not surely die - Grey area.

Now we're in a mess because Eve's mind was "open" to considering the possibility that God was wrong.

I never implied that my understanding is superior... you know, my understanding is rather open minded and not closed...

Which is not a good thing. Open minded to a fault even. And again, it may not be your intention, but you are saying that your understanding is superior. And that's not a jab at you, that's just the way it works. If person A claims that person B is wrong in regards to a matter, person A must have a superior understanding to person B. If not, then how can person A know that person B is wrong?

 

[JohnMarsten]

Black and white is where we need to be. Shades of grey are the reason for confusion. Ex:

God said
In the day ye eat of it, ye shall surely die - Black & White

Satan said
Ye shall not surely die - Grey area.

Now we're in a mess because Eve's mind was "open" to considering the possibility that God was wrong.



Which is not a good thing. Open minded to a fault even. And again, it may not be your intention, but you are saying that your understanding is superior. And that's not a jab at you, that's just the way it works. If person A claims that person B is wrong in regards to a matter, person A must have a superior understanding to person B. If not, then how can person A know that person B is wrong?

No, I just take into account that there might be a person C out there who might actually be right

 

[Stryder06]

No, I just take into account that there might be a person C out there who might actually be right

Indeed. And someone could be wrong. And to consider person A is "Actually right", that means that person B is totally wrong, and has an inferior understanding.

 

[OntheDL]

Ok so here's the last problem I mentioned in the other thread.

Ahhhammmmm ahhammm hmmhmamm

*Looks around nervously

Ahhammm

Ok there's no real easy way to say this so I'm just going to say it.

How to we explain the whole Ellen White thing in the light of -
1 Timothy 2 : 11-13

Hi Asiyreh,

1 Tim 2:11-15 talks about the role of women in the church in general.

Women are in a support role and should not be in the leadership position. Because Paul explains that man(Adam) was the spiritual leader of the family.

However this does not mean God can not use a woman as an instrument to speak to His people. God even used a donkey once. This is God's prerogative.

Here Acts 2 quotes Joel:

16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

When I first came to the SDA church, I didn't know who Ellen White was and didn't really want to know what she wrote.

However as I studied more of the SDA beliefs with the bible, I came to appreciate the fact that Ellen White's writings reveal in a greater clarity and detail of the person of Jesus and His plan for His last day's church.

I always say to people who are new to SDA beliefs: take the grocery store approach: take what you need and come back later for more when you need it.

Hope this helps,

 

[mmksparbud]

Hi Asiyreh,

1 Tim 2:11-15 talks about the role of women in the church in general.

Women are in a support role and should not be in the leadership position. Because Paul explains that man(Adam) was the spiritual leader of the family.

However this does not mean God can not use a woman as an instrument to speak to His people. God even used a donkey once. This is God's prerogative.

Here Acts 2 quotes Joel:

16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

When I first came to the SDA church, I didn't know who Ellen White was and didn't really want to know what she wrote.

However as I studied more of the SDA beliefs with the bible, I came to appreciate the fact that Ellen White's writings reveal in a greater clarity and detail of the person of Jesus and His plan for His last day's church.

I always say to people who are new to SDA beliefs: take the grocery store approach: take what you need and come back later for more when you need it.

Hope this helps,

There is also the 15 items or less aisle!!