Discussion on Revelation 12

JesusServant · Jan 23, 2003

I posted this in another forum area, thought it was also well suited for this area as well.  I would love to hear other opinions and help with a couple of questions...

(Revelation 12:1) And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Most translations replace 'wonder' with 'sign'.  Nevertheless, this is obviously, and agreed by probably all theologians that this CANNOT be an actually woman and every bit of Revelation 12 is symbolic of actual events and NOT literal.  Note that Israel was made up of twelve tribes and these twelve tribes of Israel (even though 10 were lost when Babylon conquered Israel) are mentioned throughout several passages of Revelation.  Also, another note, I believe the moon symbolizes night/darkness that will be trampled under foot by the light (symbolized by the clothing of sun).

(Revelation 12:2) And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

Bad times were upon Israel like never before and almost all of Israel was awaiting the coming of the promised Messiah.

(Revelation 12:3) And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Another sign, but this one is apparently not in a positive light.  It is symbolizing something more ghastly and evil.  Everyone, I hope, can agree that the dragon is that 'serpant of old', satan.

(Revelation 12:4) And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Since this is symbolic we have to look no further than the begining of Revelation to find out what 'stars' are referring to. (Revelation 1:20) The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.  Remember, this is Jesus talking here, I'll take His word for it, apparently 'stars' represent angels and 'candlesticks' represent the churches.  I love the symbolism here.  Candlesticks hold candles which give off light.  We, as Christians, are the candles and we are to be 'a light on a hill' for non-believers to see and the church is what holds us and keeps us.

Apparently, Revelation 12:4 is also referring to how satan brought down one third of the angels in heaven with him.  These are the fallen angels that many Christians speak of and they follow satan.  Satan knew, from "(Genesis 3:15) And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."  that the child that Israel would bring forth would bruise his head so he was set out to stop him.  Did satan not use Herod to try and kill Jesus as a baby?(Revelation 12:5) And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne.

All throughout the old testament we can find who the "man child" is and He WILL rule the nations with a rod of iron.  Israel DID bring forth this manchild, not a church because no Christian church existed when Jesus was born, so this cannot be a church that brought forth the manchild.

(Revelation 12:6) And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days.

I'm not positive on this one, but I'm sure someone could explain it better than I.  The timeframe throws me off, do the passages change from Israel to Mary for a moment and speak of the flight into Egypt?

(Revelation 12:7) And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

(Revelation 12:8) And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

(Revelation 12:9) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

(Revelation 12:10) And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

12:7 - 12:10 are self explanatory.

(Revelation 12:11) And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

(Revelation 12:12) Therefore rejoice, [ye] heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

"They overcame 'him'".  Him is obviously still referring to satan and Jesus' blood and the testimony of the saints gave power to cast satan down from heaven to earth.  So apparently, not only did Jesus conquer sin and pay its debt on earth, He somehow (hard for me to understand) did much more and gave power to cast satan and his angels out of heaven for good.

(Revelation 12:13) And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man [child].

Israel and Jews.

(Revelation 12:14) And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Many theories on this one, I'd love to hear some theories on this one, I'm not positive.  Has this happened or is this speaking of the first half of the Great Tribulation?

(Revelation 12:15) And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

(Revelation 12:16) And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

(Revelation 12:17) And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Okay, is it me, or does 12:17 HAVE to refer to the Great Tribulation.  The remnant of her seed is the Jews, and all who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ (Christians).  Satan will make a final attempt to wipe out Israel once and for all.

Thoughts?  Alternate theories and views through scripture?

EDIT: I had put 'Jerusalem' where I meant to put 'Israel'

ZiSunka · Jan 23, 2003

(Revelation 12:14) And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Many theories on this one, I'd love to hear some theories on this one, I'm not positive. Has this happened or is this speaking of the first half of the Great Tribulation?

This is something yet to happen. Remember that te woman is Israel, not Mary or anyother woman.

Things get so bad during the tribulation period that the remaining faithful Jews fly out into the wilderness (literally, fly on wings, not just flee. That's something that couldn't happen until the invention of the airplane. The Wright Brothers were part of God's plan and didn't even know it!), meaning that they go out to a place of refuge for 3-1/2 years.

JesusServant · Jan 23, 2003

Originally posted by lambslove
This is something yet to happen. Remember that te woman is Israel, not Mary or anyother woman.

Things get so bad during the tribulation period that the remaining faithful Jews fly out into the wilderness (literally, fly on wings, not just flee. That's something that couldn't happen until the invention of the airplane. The Wright Brothers were part of God's plan and didn't even know it!), meaning that they go out to a place of refuge for 3-1/2 years.

I agree this is the part of Rev 12 that begins discussing the future, it cannot be Mary.  None of 12 can be Mary, or all of it doesn't make sense, just a part.  Catholics, I think, believe Rev 12 is talking about Mary, and if any catholics care to chime in and correct me, please feel free, I'm not positive.

I think Revelation 12 is proof enough that Babylon is not Israel.  Why have two symbolisms for Israel in John's Revelation?

Check this out...

I believe that the wings of the great eagle is the U.S.  We will help Israel survive this last onslaught on them.  And everyone knows the U.S. is represented by the Eagle.  Maybe they'll fly to safety to the U.S. after a nuclear or biological assault?

Brain Damage · Jan 24, 2003

(Revelation 12:4) And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born

I believe that women with the twelve stars...moon under her feet.. etc..etc is none other than Israel , however , I believe it has dual overtones...we must not forget that Herod tried to kill the man child .

DeafPosttrib · Jan 24, 2003

I agree that Revelation chapter 12 is symbolic.

'Woman' is Isreal, yes that is correct.

Also, we are Israel.

Israel is Church
Church is Israel.

I am not Replacement Theology.

We are part of Abraham's seed - Gal. 3:28-29.

Both Jews and Gentiles who believe in Christ, we are all ONE in Christ - Christ's seed - Gal. 2:16.

Woman represents Christ's wife as Bride of Rev. 21:9.

Dragon, the old seprent - Satan is persecute against the Church.

We shall flee into the wilderness from the persecution for 3 1/2 years.

Revelation chapter 12 covers whole history from the beginning to the end of the world.

The war in heaven already happened thousands years ago. I believe during the time of Lucifer was rebel against God, 1/3 angels followed Lucifer. They were kicked out of the heaven must be before or during creation time.

Bible teaches us, that we are wife of Chirst. That why woman represents Church.

You have to understand that book of Revelation have lot of figuratives and symbols. Not all are literal. We have to interpreting them very carefully, what these are talking about.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

JesusServant · Jan 24, 2003

Originally posted by Brain Damage
(Revelation 12:4) And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born

I believe that women with the twelve stars...moon under her feet.. etc..etc is none other than Israel , however , I believe it has dual overtones...we must not forget that Herod tried to kill the man child .

Right but who had control of Herod?  Could satan not be powerful enough to be manipulating Herod?  I think Herod was probably one of the worst benedict Arnold types of all time.  Talk about a "sell out"

JesusServant · Jan 24, 2003

Originally posted by DeafPosttrib
I agree that Revelation chapter 12 is symbolic.

'Woman' is Isreal, yes that is correct.

Also, we are Israel.

Israel is Church
Church is Israel.

Well, not quite... as Paul stated several times, in Romans and in the epistles...

Church is the Body of Christ.  The Body of Christ is Church.

I am not Replacement Theology.

?

We are part of Abraham's seed - Gal. 3:28-29.

Both Jews and Gentiles who believe in Christ, we are all ONE in Christ - Christ's seed - Gal. 2:16.

Woman represents Christ's wife as Bride of Rev. 21:9.

Dragon, the old seprent - Satan is persecute against the Church.

We shall flee into the wilderness from the persecution for 3 1/2 years.

Revelation chapter 12 covers whole history from the beginning to the end of the world.

The war in heaven already happened thousands years ago. I believe during the time of Lucifer was rebel against God, 1/3 angels followed Lucifer. They were kicked out of the heaven must be before or during creation time.

Okay, this is something we should definitely discuss...

Notice in Revelation 12 why satan and a third of the angels were thrown down to earth...

 (Revelation 12:11) And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

From 12:11 we learn that satan wasn't cast down because God spoke it and it was so.  We also cannot say that satan was cast down because Michael and the other two-thirds of the angels were so powerful that they overcame satan and his angels.  It DOES say that the very reason that satan was overcome was by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony.  So the question remains on when satan was cast down.  Was he cast down after the blood of Jesus (Lamb) was shed or was he cast down prior to Jesus' blood being shed?  Apparently 12:11 doesn't make much sense if satan was cast down before the blood of the Lamb came to be because it was by that very blood that they "overcame him."

Also, if satan was cast down before creation of man, then how did the story in the book of Job even occur?  Job existed and yet we see in the book of Job that satan could walk around on earth AND enter the council of God and speak with God.  Obviously he hadn't been 'banned' (for lack of a better word) from Heaven just yet.

Bible teaches us, that we are wife of Chirst. That why woman represents Church.

Actually the woman represents Israel, I think that's very clear.  The Church did NOT give birth to Jesus, Jesus gave birth to the Church.

You have to understand that book of Revelation have lot of figuratives and symbols. Not all are literal. We have to interpreting them very carefully, what these are talking about.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

Of course some things are 'figuratives and symbols', I think everyone in the thread so far is agreeing that Revelation 12 is using symbolic language to describe actual events.

JesusServant · Jan 27, 2003

Anyone have any other views on Revelation 12?

Specifically, anyone have any other ideas on the "wings of the eagle" passage and what it could be alluding to?

Theresa · Jan 27, 2003

The Woman being Mary is also supported by previous verses, namely "God's temple in heaven was opened, and the Covenant Box was seen there. Then there was flashes of lightning, rumblings and peals of thunder, an earthquake and heavy hail....." and then, what?.......

......"then a great and mysterious sight appeared in the sky. There was a woman, whose dress was the sun and who had the moon under her feet...."

Keep in mind, the Ark of the Covenant hadn't been seen for hundreds of years. Imagine John's shock at seeing it in the sky and what does he see when it's opened? A Woman. Keep in mind that within the Ark of the Covenant there was the Word of God written in stone, the manna, and the priestly rod of Aaron. Within Mary's womb she carried, the Word of God made flesh, the Bread of Life and the Eternal High Priest.

The Woman is the one whom Christ called "Woman" and is also the "Woman" who is mentioned in Genesis, the only other place where all three characters are depicted. In Genesis we have the serpent, the Woman and her seed in Revelations 12 we have the Woman, the child and the dragon. The Woman is depicted as mostly Mary but as the Church on one level. Mary was the first Christian, she gave birth to the Son who's body is the Church.

This is just in response to those who say that the "Woman" can't possibly be Mary.

Theresa

JesusServant · Jan 27, 2003

Originally posted by Theresa
The Woman being Mary is also supported by previous verses, namely "God's temple in heaven was opened, and the Covenant Box was seen there. Then there was flashes of lightning, rumblings and peals of thunder, an earthquake and heavy hail....." and then, what?.......

......"then a great and mysterious sight appeared in the sky. There was a woman, whose dress was the sun and who had the moon under her feet...."

Keep in mind, the Ark of the Covenant hadn't been seen for hundreds of years. Imagine John's shock at seeing it in the sky and what does he see when it's opened? A Woman. Keep in mind that within the Ark of the Covenant there was the Word of God written in stone, the manna, and the priestly rod of Aaron. Within Mary's womb she carried, the Word of God made flesh, the Bread of Life and the Eternal High Priest.

The Woman is the one whom Christ called "Woman" and is also the "Woman" who is mentioned in Genesis, the only other place where all three characters are depicted. In Genesis we have the serpent, the Woman and her seed in Revelations 12 we have the Woman, the child and the dragon. The Woman is depicted as mostly Mary but as the Church on one level. Mary was the first Christian, she gave birth to the Son who's body is the Church.

This is just in response to those who say that the "Woman" can't possibly be Mary.

Theresa

If it was Mary then you must interpret the goings-on as literal.  Therefor, when did this flood come after Mary and the earth open up and swallowed it?  When interpreting scripture, we have to remember that we can't jump back and forth between literal interpretation and symbolic interpretation at a whim.  Satan never came after Mary, he came after Jesus.  But, satan does come after Israel time and time again.

Also, why did Mary trevail at birth and "pain to be delivered".  Mary wasn't in pain to be "delivered" in the physcial sense, but joined Israel in needing to be delivered as a whole from oppression and spiritual wickedness.

OT:  Mary was the first Christian?  That's odd.  The word Christian didn't even exist until many decades after Mary was deceased.

Wonder · Jan 27, 2003

The way I see it is the U.S. is the woman and we are being kept in the wilderness..It can't be the Jews because they hold no testamony to Jesus. He has gathered His house here in the U.S. and it is here the war will be fought...A man child shall soon be born! YES!

Brain Damage · Jan 28, 2003

Originally posted by JesusServant
Anyone have any other views on Revelation 12?

Specifically, anyone have any other ideas on the "wings of the eagle" passage and what it could be alluding to?

Hi JS .  I did a search on bible gateway and some very interesting things pertaining to "eagles wings and/or "wings of an eagle" came up .

Could it mean something similar to..............

 

Exodus 19
3 Then Moses went up to God, and the LORD called to him from the mountain and said, "This is what you are to say to the house of Jacob and what you are to tell the people of Israel: 4 'You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles' wings and brought you to myself. 5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine,

Or there are 8 to 10 more results :

http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?search=wing+of+an+eagle&SearchType=AND&version=NKJV&restrict=&StartRestrict=&EndRestrict=&rpp=25&language=english&searchpage=0&x=14&y=2

Evee · Jan 28, 2003

Hi wonder,  I never ever thought of this , this way.

 I have tried to figure this out but haven't so far. Evee

JesusServant · Jan 28, 2003

Originally posted by Brain Damage
 

Hi JS .  I did a search on bible gateway and some very interesting things pertaining to "eagles wings and/or "wings of an eagle" came up .

Could it mean something similar to..............

 

Exodus 19
3 Then Moses went up to God, and the LORD called to him from the mountain and said, "This is what you are to say to the house of Jacob and what you are to tell the people of Israel: 4 'You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles' wings and brought you to myself. 5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine,

Or there are 8 to 10 more results :

http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?search=wing+of+an+eagle&SearchType=AND&version=NKJV&restrict=&StartRestrict=&EndRestrict=&rpp=25&language=english&searchpage=0&x=14&y=2

Thanks for the research Brain, I'll check out the others as well.  Thanks also for pointing out that 'eagle's wings' is elsewhere in the Bible, something I could have done a search for on e-sword :/  Anyways, do you get from that that the eagle's wings just refer to God's help and/or God's flight from oppression for His people?  If so, then this is further alluding to some type of rapture or protection in the Great Tribulation.

Wonder · Jan 28, 2003

Deafposttrib quote:
They were kicked out of the heaven must be before or during creation time.

They weren't "kicked out of heaven" they were: (Revelation 12:4) And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth.
We were side swiped! After the Messiah arose.

Theresa · Jan 28, 2003

"If it was Mary then you must interpret the goings-on as literal.  Therefor, when did this flood come after Mary and the earth open up and swallowed it?  When interpreting scripture, we have to remember that we can't jump back and forth between literal interpretation and symbolic interpretation at a whim.  Satan never came after Mary, he came after Jesus.  But, satan does come after Israel time and time again. "

If it was Mary, we don't have to interpret the goings-on as literal.  The son or seed is literally Jesus, the dragon or serpent is literally "that ancient serpent, called the Devil, or Satan". Satan came after Mary and her seed.  Last time I checked the Church didn't give birth to Christ.  The bride doesn't give birth to the husband, so from what I have encountered, the primary meaning has to be Mary and other understandings need to flow from this primary understanding.   She is the personfication of the Church by her role as mother to Christ and Christ has given her the role as a type of Mother to all Christians (Eve is known as the mother of all humans, Mary is known as the mother of all Christians, "the woman of John's vision is mother not only to the 'male child' but also to 'the rest of her offspring' further identified as 'those who keep the commandments fo God and bear testimony to Jesus'.  Her offspring, then, are all those who have new life in Jesus Christ.'(1)) (and you know that I don't mean she is God and created them).  If you take all of the Catholic teachings of Mary you come to the understanding that from all of human history, Mary is the only perfect creature.  She is the only fully human being without sin.  That means that she is forshadowed along with the one who made her sinless, which is Christ.  Consider the following verse.   The first Adam failed to guard the garden and the serpent got in.  The second Adam didn't fail, and he prevented the Serpent from getting into his mother's heart, the New Eve. The serpent or dragon is not figurative, nor is the child or the seed. 

"And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring  and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel." Gen 3:15

"Have all women, or men for that matter had total seperation/rejection between them and Satan?  Obviously not, but the woman was sinless unto this event.  There has been sparing between the devil and mankind ever since.  Total enmity would occur when another sinless woman came along; a mother whose own Son would refer to her as "woman" as a recognition of her siness nature."

"OT:  Mary was the first Christian?  That's odd.  The word Christian didn't even exist until many decades after Mary was deceased."

Just because "Christian" wasn't a word until later doesn't mean that she can't be called that after the word was known. 

She was the first one to say "yes" to him.  To live her full life for him.  To walk to the cross with him.  She was the first Christian and she gave birth to the Christ and the Christ gave her to John to be his mother and for John to be her son and John is a personification of all of Christ's beloved disciples.  "When Jesus then saw His mother, and  the disciple whom He loved standing nearby, He said to His mother, " Woman, behold, your son!" 
  Then He said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother!" From that hour the disciple took her into  his own household. "John 19:26,27
 

St.Michael, also in this chapter, is known as our greatest defender,

"St.Michael the Archangel,'

defend us in battle,

be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil;

May God rubuke him, we humbly pray

And do thou, O Prince of the heavenly host,

By the power of God, thrust into hell,

Satan and all evil spirits,

Who wander throught the world

seeking the ruin of souls.  Amen. 

This prayer was penned by Pope Leo XIII after a vision where he is said to have overheard a conversation between Jesus and Satan where Satan asked for time and power to destroy Christ's Church, and Christ gave him more time and more power to try. 
 

I would think that the Devil has been pursuing Jesus and Mary and all Christians since Calvary.  "This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world. " 1 John 4:3 

 

Anyways, I just don't want you to discount the interpretation as Mary too quickly. :angel:

Mary and the Eucharist are my favorite subjects.
 

Theresa

 

 

JesusServant · Jan 28, 2003

Originally posted by Theresa
If it was Mary, we don't have to interpret the goings-on as literal.  The son or seed is literally Jesus, the dragon or serpent is literally "that ancient serpent, called the Devil, or Satan". Satan came after Mary and her seed.  Last time I checked the Church didn't give birth to Christ.  The bride doesn't give birth to the husband, so from what I have encountered, the primary meaning has to be Mary and other understandings need to flow from this primary understanding.   She is the personfication of the Church by her role as mother to Christ and Christ has given her the role as a type of Mother to all Christians (Eve is known as the mother of all humans, Mary is known as the mother of all Christians, "the woman of John's vision is mother not only to the 'male child' but also to 'the rest of her offspring' further identified as 'those who keep the commandments fo God and bear testimony to Jesus'.  Her offspring, then, are all those who have new life in Jesus Christ.'(1)) (and you know that I don't mean she is God and created them).  If you take all of the Catholic teachings of Mary you come to the understanding that from all of human history, Mary is the only perfect creature.  She is the only fully human being without sin.  That means that she is forshadowed along with the one who made her sinless, which is Christ.  Consider the following verse.   The first Adam failed to guard the garden and the serpent got in.  The second Adam didn't fail, and he prevented the Serpent from getting into his mother's heart, the New Eve. The serpent or dragon is not figurative, nor is the child or the seed. 

"And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring  and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel." Gen 3:15

"Have all women, or men for that matter had total seperation/rejection between them and Satan?  Obviously not, but the woman was sinless unto this event.  There has been sparing between the devil and mankind ever since.  Total enmity would occur when another sinless woman came along; a mother whose own Son would refer to her as "woman" as a recognition of her siness nature."

Just because "Christian" wasn't a word until later doesn't mean that she can't be called that after the word was known.  She was the first one to say "yes" to him.  To live her full life for him.  To walk to the cross with him.  She was the first Christian and she gave birth to the Christ and the Christ gave her to John to be his mother and for John to be her son and John is a personification of all of Christ's beloved disciples.  "When Jesus then saw His mother, and  the disciple whom He loved standing nearby, He said to His mother, " Woman, behold, your son!" 
  Then He said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother!" From that hour the disciple took her into  his own household. "John 19:26,27
 

St.Michael, also in this chapter, is known as our greatest defender,

"St.Michael the Archangel,'

defend us in battle,

be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil;

May God rubuke him, we humbly pray

And do thou, O Prince of the heavenly host,

By the power of God, thrust into hell,

Satan and all evil spirits,

Who wander throught the world

seeking the ruin of souls.  Amen. 

This prayer was penned by Pope Leo XIII after a vision where he is said to have overheard a conversation between Jesus and Satan where Satan asked for time and power to destroy Christ's Church, and Christ gave him more time and more power to try. 
 

I would think that the Devil has been pursuing Jesus and Mary and all Christians since Calvary.  "This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world. " 1 John 4:3 

 

Anyways, I just don't want you to discount the interpretation as Mary too quickly. Mary and the Eucharist are my favorite subjects.
 

Theresa 
 

I appreciate your time and energy in this post Theresa.  If I am wrong about any views I have on Bible scripture I would love to be corrected, but this is an area that I am very stern on because I have come to it by process of elimination not by being told it by someone else (not that that is your sole reason) or that I just want to believe it because that makes me cool in some way

While most of what you said is great and all, it doesn't answer the questions that I posed.  When did the earth swallow up a flood that came after Mary?  Why would Mary "trevail to be delivered"? That doesn't make sense and isn't backed up by scripture. 

Let me pose a question Theresa, has everything in Revelation 12 happened?  Or is some of it yet to come?

Theresa · Jan 28, 2003

"While most of what you said is great and all, it doesn't answer the questions that I posed. When did the earth swallow up a flood that came after Mary? Why would Mary "trevail to be delivered"? That doesn't make sense and isn't backed up by scripture.

Let me pose a question Theresa, has everything in Revelation 12 happened? Or is some of it yet to come?"

Is the Devil in heaven??

Wow, I'm confused. First things first.

When did the earth swallow up the flood that came after Mary?
I don't know.

Why would Mary travail to be delivered?

"Elsewhere in the New Testament, Saint Paul uses the pain of childbirth as a metaphor for spiritual suffering, for suffering in general, or for the longing of hte world as it waits for ultimate fuflilment.....it could represent the spiritual sufferings that were the price of Mary's motherhood.'

"Then Simeon blessed them and said to Mary, his mother: "This child is destined to cause the falling and rising of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be spoken against, so that the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed. And a sword will pierce your own soul too." Luke 2:34,35

"My dear children, for whom I am again in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you," Gal 4:19

We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Romans 8:22

I'm not feeling well. I'll finish later.
Theresa

JesusServant · Jan 28, 2003

Originally posted by Theresa
Is the Devil in heaven??

Wow, I'm confused. First things first.

When did the earth swallow up the flood that came after Mary?
I don't know.

Why would Mary travail to be delivered?

"Elsewhere in the New Testament, Saint Paul uses the pain of childbirth as a metaphor for spiritual suffering, for suffering in general, or for the longing of hte world as it waits for ultimate fuflilment.....it could represent the spiritual sufferings that were the price of Mary's motherhood.'

"Then Simeon blessed them and said to Mary, his mother: "This child is destined to cause the falling and rising of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be spoken against, so that the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed. And a sword will pierce your own soul too." Luke 2:34,35

"My dear children, for whom I am again in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you," Gal 4:19

We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Romans 8:22

I'm not feeling well. I'll finish later.
Theresa

I'm sorry you're not feeling well Theresa, I said a quick prayer for you, God bless!

You are making my point for me though, Israel trevailed to be delivered not just Mary but all of Israel and God's people at that time.

To your question, "Is the Devil in heaven?"  Obviously by Revelation 12 he is not.  I'm not saying he is.  There is a point in Revelation 12 in which hasn't been fulfilled whether it's interpreted that the symbolic woman represents a woman, Mary, or the symbolic woman represents Israel.  The Bible even states that the woman of Revelation 12 is a sign/wonder so why would a sign of a woman be a woman?

(Rev 12:14) And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

(Rev 12:15) And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

(Rev 12:16) And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

(Rev 12:17) And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Each scripture here has something that we cannot answer if it has happened.

There is a reason you don't know when the earth swallowed up the flood after the woman.  It hasn't happened, and if this the woman is Mary, it cannot happen, so it cannot be Mary.

Satan has been trying to erradicate Jews for ages and is still at it today. 

Also, in 12:17 there is a war made with the remnant of her seed.  This remnant is in the Bible and it is the remnant of the 12 tribes of Judah.  This war has not taken place yet.  I imagine that Hitler's attrocity is merely a taste of what is to come in the future war against Jews and Christians. (12:17 - "to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God {the Jews}, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ {Christians}). 

Brain Damage · Jan 29, 2003

Originally posted by JesusServant
Thanks for the research Brain, I'll check out the others as well.  Thanks also for pointing out that 'eagle's wings' is elsewhere in the Bible, something I could have done a search for on e-sword :/  Anyways, do you get from that that the eagle's wings just refer to God's help and/or God's flight from oppression for His people?  If so, then this is further alluding to some type of rapture or protection in the Great Tribulation.

 

Hi JS ,  I'm not sure...so here's a link to the blue letter bible with commentries , I must read this myself .

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/popup/1043827906-835.html#12

Discussion on Revelation 12

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