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Many people wish that the Bible condemned homosexuality but it doesn't. What it does do is condemn certain homosexual acts done in aggression by heterosexual men. (Genesis chapters 18 & 19) It condemns certain sexual acts that were committed by the nations that God was going to destroy and then hand over to the pre-Exodus Jews of whom had not committed.(Leviticus chapters 18 & 20)
We discussed the extremely close relationship of David and Jonathan: I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me; thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women.
We discussed the men and women of (Rom. 1:22-32) who many believe started out heterosexual but during the course of their deciding to practice sex with others of the same gender, became homosexual. We discussed the Koine Greek word arsenokoites found in (1Cor.6:9) & (1Tim.1:10) which many translate male-bedders. Many people believe this word to have been lifted from Leviticus 18:22. If so, it had no bearing on the pre-Exodus Jews nor then does it have any bearing on us today.
So here we are. Still looking for the Bible to condemn something it just does not.
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And that is why onemorequestion's implication that, if the gay and gay-accepting Christians are wrong in their interpretaion they are heretics is wrong. It is closer to the difference between accepting and rejecting infant baptism.
I believe that I have, in my posting history, if not necessarily all in a single post, dealt with the whole of Scripture. If you'll tell me just what sort things it is you have not seen, I'll try to provide you with my perspective on the issue.
BTW, I consider my opinion to be "gay-accepting" and not necessarily always strongly "pro-gay." So even if you come to accept my position as a legitimate Christian position, you may feel that no one has defended a truly "pro-gay" position. The main difference is that I allow for the possibility that a fully "pro-gay" position is wrong, but the principle of Romans 14 tells me that if the issue does not affect me personally, then it's none of my business. When it does not directly affect us, we are only to get involved in three cases: when we are specifically invited to share our experiences and our opinions (for example on a forum like this, or if someone comes to us for advice and counsel), when an innocent third party is being harmed, or if we are in positions of leadership in the church and/or the community and it is a formal matter of discipline. Every single instance from the New Testament that people have tried to use to counter all of the "do not judge" passages either involves one of these three situations, or the offending party is sinning against the person involved -- that is doing tangible harm to them.
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As do many liberal orgs.
While it is effortless to dismantle the liberal view and positions and showing them as having no foundation in scripture, the family tree of Jesus has some pretty unsavory branches. Just looking at Bathsheba, a great grandmother of Jesus (and Joseph and Mary), and one can see that Jesus should have never been born. A stoned to death adulterous woman usually doesn't have offspring if the adultery occured before the babies.
We are left with a dilemma: Are the liberals truly inventing a heretical neo-Christianity, or are they erring on the side of mercy?
From the view of it, the answer may be, that they are using mercy as an indoctrination tactic/technique.
Each and every one of them will stand before Jesus on their judgment day and will they have the position that they supported everyone to come into the Church, but allowed Jesus to judge them? Or will they be shrinking back knowing they wilfully supported sin and sinners and sinning?
What about we conservatives? Are we keeping people from the Body of Christ? But then again, where is the direct message that anyone is not welcomed in a conservative Church. They very usage of the word conservative, would show the Gospel preached the way the Apostles did it.
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That says volumes about other kinds of people that claim they are Christians, but whose doctrines say otherwise.
In a scratch the surface kind of way. You dig deeper and it gets worse.
The holiness of marriage and proper Christian behavior is tantamount to a solid walk. A solid walk leads others to a saving knowledge of Christ. Gay theology leads to pride parades. Pride is also denounced in scripture.
Same gender sexual behavior is not minor. It is antithetical to Christian holiness.
That is why I offered the seperation of denominations. Gay ones and non gay ones. I don't see anything wrong with that.
Gay marriage is not about bowling teams. It is about sex within a marriage. A marriage that is antithetical to Christian marriage. It is an altogether different religious doctrine. One not found validated within the history of Apostolic Christian doctrine.
There is no way you can pro-gay Romans unless you edit out Chapters one and two. 14 is not about practicing immorality as a questionable doctrine.
A perfect justification for my position about gay Churches and non gay Churches.
I'll bet you're not kidding. I could not in all good conscience, work with a group like that. Now, I will say, that I do not know if the Lord works through these kinds of places, but I can only hope that truth gets through to that kind of group.
Universalism is anything but compatible with the Gospel and Apostolic testimony.
A lot of it is going in another direction.
Welcoming is always the case. Affirming of gay behavior isn't.
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Although I would use less condemning language, I agree that the two doctrines are only the most noticeable of the differences. There are others, as I implicitly acknowledged by the phrase "most notably."
I'm not entirely sure I know what you mean by "gay theology." In fact, I'm not totally convinced you know precisely what you mean by "gay theology."
Are there people who consider themselves Christians, but for whom being out and proud gays is more important than following Christ? I'm sure there are, but there are just as many, if not more, Christians who are trying to follow Jesus, and who happen to be gay, and believe they can find grace in both.
But there is not a single Scriptural passage that definitively makes that claim. Of the five passages that directly speak of sins involving sex between males (seven if you insist on claiming Genesis 19 and Jude), every single one of them would be just as much a sin if the partner (or in the case of Sodom, the victim) were female.
If a church splits because it is becoming too large for the pastoral staff to effectively minister to all the individual members' needs and the congregation chooses to divide based on a minor doctrinal difference before a minor irritation becomes a major annoyance,and the daughter church can still fellowship with the parent church, that is a good thing. If a church splits because one group within the church refuses to fellowship with another group, that is a bad thing. It's hard to read nuance in the written word, but your suggestion "feels" like it is based more on the second reason than the first.
Judaism, from about the third century BC, has strongly discouraged male-male sex. But, for the most part, it was as a hedge or fence around the Levitical "man-lying" command, not as an interpretation of it. Just as the aspect of the dietary laws that mandate separate meals and separate dishes for meat and dairy are a fence around the command not to boil a kid in its mother's milk.
In Christian tradition, the demonization of gay activity can be traced to Augustine of Hippo who in his youth indulged in all sorts of hedonism, including wanton sex, with both men and women, but when he became a Christian rejected all sex to the point where he simply abandoned his common-law wife and his children, and Clement of Alexandria, who also rejected all sex, and much of vanity, with curious exceptions and much confusion whether a particular act was forbidden sex or prideful vanity.
But I don't "pro-gay" Romans 14. I read it as accepting of the person, not glorifying the act. Even if you think the person is wrong in his determination that he can do (or not do) something and still glorify God, it is not our right to judge him.
And Chapters 1 and 2 are not in opposition to that doctrine; they are its basis: no matter how black we see another person's sins, no matter how much the Bible condemns the action, we are no better. Our sins are just as black, and we have no standing to judge others.
Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
Romans 2:1-3
Romans 2:1-3
As I said, it depends on the circumstances and reason for the separation.
Although the Unitarian-Universalist church has shared the spotlight in this endeavor, I was actually referring to the United Church of Christ, which is a mainstream Christian denomination
Again we touch on good splits and bad splits. Splitting because of animosity is not good.
Yet you said you could never work with the MCC because they accept gays. Accepting gays as persons is welcoming. What did you mean by welcoming?
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razeontherock
Well-Known Member
That claim is not only not supported, but really stretches the imagination. I believe all you're showing is a lack of understanding human nature.
You act as if you're writing a National Geographic documentary, but not one of your points stands up to scrutiny.
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Stinker2 said:
Are you kidding? Don't MANY of the stories from the Bible stretch the imagination!? My goodness! What Stinker2 suggests is not only feasible but it's also highly likely that aggression (rape) or otherwise extreme religious taboos are what the Bible condemns and not homosexuality per se. Even if the Bible does frown on two men sexually relating to one another (not women you will notice) we could quite clearly put this down to the unreasonable, unrealistic patriarchal culture of the day. Then was then, now is now. And, living in 'the now' and not 'the then' is not necessarily 'a sin'.
Stinker2 said:
I keep hearing this but I'm still waiting to hear/see someone efficiently scrutinize the 'clobber' texts that have been presented with 'new light' a number of times on this forum, notably by OllieFranz and BeanieBoy. They're up for grabs if anyone would like to tackle them.
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Let's not get a persecution complex now shall we? Jesus would not be proud of how most Christians behave in his name.
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I hope noone bothers repeating themselves and the pro gay support crew disperses.Probably wont happen as some conservatives here love wasting their time typing words that arent comprehended.Just because people dont want to change their way doesnt mean you are unloving by leaving them to it.Pearls before piggies.Time to shake the dust.
Its obvious reading the bible to you and others has the same effect as reading a fairytale.I dont hate gays as i have a gay sibling whom i love dearly.I really dont like the lifestyle and i know what the ultimate result for gays will be.Hope to see you and others come to your senses.one day.
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Before you (patronizingly) shake the dust from those who 'won't listen to you' just bear in mind that NO ONE is the all-knowing oracle they may believe themselves to be. We read from the same Bible. We come up with different interpretations of the same scriptures. Perhaps that's the way it's meant to be as opposed to someone believing (whether with sincerity or not) that THEY SOLELY are correct. I don't believe that the texts YOU believe to condemn homosexuality are doing any such thing. And, I have good reason to arrive at that belief. You appear to be from 'the old school' in regard to traditional Christian beliefs that are, as far as you are concerned, set into stone. That's fine. But don't expect everyone else to stagnate in tradition as 'new light' might appear to them. I don't know everything. Nor do you. There are still things to learn. And that might even include (gasp) learning new things from the Bible.
I believe that some of it, even much of it, perhaps, is based on legend and/or allegory. YOU, however, are the one - for reason of patronizing - who used the term 'fairy story' which is quite different.
I don't believe that I've ever accused anyone on this forum of hating homosexuals so I'm not sure why you brought that up. That said, I believe that people DO hate homosexuals and use the Bible with which to express their hatred.
There is no reason at all that you should not love your sibling, whether gay or straight. You say that YOU don't like the lifestyle ...of your sibling? At least you're being honest by admitting that it's YOU who doesn't like homosexuality. Why didn't you say that from the start instead of using the Bible to support your dislike?
As for YOU knowing what the ultimate result for gays will be ...YOU are playing God, my friend!
Lastly, after 22 years as a Christian ...I finally HAVE come to my senses. I don't think you realize, however, what a patronizing (yet again) thing that was to say. Again, YOU don't know it all.
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addo
Senior Member
I believe you are wrong. It is our matter, because we are part of the body of Christ and when one member of His body suffers all the body suffers with it and when one member is happy all the body rejoices with it. If he is part of His body, then when He sins He makes the whole body suffer, especially the head.
Also, we are not making any judgment. The Scriptures are. And even if we were, what would make our judgment bad? Did not Jesus say to judge [... righteous judgment] (John 7:24)? Is our judgment on homosexual acts unrighteous?
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Of course we are to be concerned with our brothers and to comfort the afflicted. But are we really called to afflict the comfortable?
Maybe you can convince yourself of that, but if you examine the Scriptures, there is a big difference between how Jesus and His disciples approached ministering to sinners and the approach that many modern Christians take.
Straightening up, Jesus said to her, "Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?"
She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on sin no more."
John 8:10-11
She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on sin no more."
John 8:10-11
But many conservative Christians, despite many of them making the claim that they do, don't restrict their condemnation of gays to "homosexual acts." Even in the absence of any evidence of "homosexual acts," the mere admission of a homosexual orientation or of not conforming to social gender role stereotypes is enough to draw down condemnation. So they are clearly judging the person, not the act.
And the New Testament consistently declares that no man but One is authorized to judge a person's sins. No one else has the moral authority to judge others, because all are just as sinful.
"He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."
John 8:7b
Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
Romans 2:1-3
No one else has been given the authority to judge others and their sins.John 8:7b
Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
Romans 2:1-3
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
John 5:19-27
And yet He has chosen not to judge anyone until the final judgment, in order to allow for every chance to save every one of His lost sheep.For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
John 5:19-27
Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man. And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
John 8:15-16
How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
Matthew 18:12-13
Which is why judging others is a serious breach of trust. John 8:15-16
How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
Matthew 18:12-13
Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge. There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?
James 4:11-12
James 4:11-12
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How fascinating that you would say something like that, when the gay position is that they are being harmed and they are just poor pitiful innoncents just tying to get by.
I know, I've been to gay pride parades.
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man, I've seen some scripture twisting before, but this is a new level of absurdity. If you have gay sex with someone, you're gay.In fact, that's the way gays sell it.
Fast forward to Europe and the USA. My how time flies and the past is repeated.
To make that relationship a homosexual one must ignore the entire context of scripture.
Which homosexuals say is impossible. You are simply "born gay." Otherwise, preaching against homosexuality is simply trying to save straight people from a life of sin in homosexuality. I believe that the LGBT orgs would still charge that as a hate crime.
"male" "bedders?" In the 1800's that was defined as homosexuality.
Here we are watching the ignoring of reality via liberal theological machinations.
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If you want to be forced to interact with atheists and gays, log onto a Christian website.
They are comprehended. You can take that to the bank.
True, true and true.
That's very accurate. Though, as anyone can see, fairy tales have more authority in liberalism.
Jesus dealt with all of that too.
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oi_antz
Opposed to Untruth.
Hey did you know they dropped the gay bomb:
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These particular comments show us how wicked "the figurative Soddom and Egypt (Revelation 11:8)" is getting:
The gay bomb is so volatile because if any person is honest with themselves, they would know that once in a while there is a person of the same sex that they notice for lust or personality, and if permitted and exercised, these thoughts can grow into physical manifestations of homosexuality. Due to this, I think homosexuality is the most potent stumbling block the enemy could devise in it's present attempt to mislead the world into the hands of the anti-Christ, or to lead the world away from Christ.
I just can't get over how much of a war is going on over this issue, there must really be some heavy weight on the opposing forces here
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I am more than sure you know what I mean by gay theology. I have proven beyond doubt that I know its precepts and doctrines well.
Two wrongs make only two wrongs. Gay pride is worldly, plain and simple.
Not intending a pun here, but you are trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. Homosexual relationships do not fit the Biblical testimony. There is not a single word or sentence or chapter that can show any support for homosexuality thought or acted upon.
Do you think rewriting Christianity is a minor irritation? Gay theology invents a new religion based on, something Christian-like.
You'ld rather they stay and look like they are supporting the Sodomites taking positions of power and leadership? Every day in a heretical Church is a bad witness to the lost.
It is better to split. The Anglicans north and south going their seperate ways is a good thing for the truth. The Africans are doing what is right.
The Torah was compiled long before the third century BC. Same gender sexual coupling was a no no even then.
"Ridding Sodomites from the land became a good thing for Israelite Kings to do:
I thought it was about cheeseburgers?
Jesus, Peter, Jude and Paul lived before Augustine.
To LGBT's and "Q's" it is one and the same thing. It's truly odd that you cannot see that.
How then does Jesus expect us to know who to treat as pagans and tax collectors when they do not change their ways? That has judgment written all over it.
I reject that gay and liberal theological position on its face. Your assertion means that there can be no preaching and calling people to repentance at all. Think about what you are saying?
The celebration of gay marriage is a good reason to split from a Church. Gay theological fruit does not come from the right tree.
It's got problems obviously. The people in Jude's Church are making their demands known now in the UCC.
I must disagree once again. To avoid further animosity is a very good reason to split.
Welcoming does not mean affirming behavior.
In liberal/gay theology repentance is a hate crime. In orthodox Christian reality, repentance is key to membership in the Church.
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Hmm, let's see - gays are a minority who are heavily discriminated against. Christians are the majority with a very long, evil history and are the discriminators. And yet, you guys are the ones with the persecution complex.
I don't know what pride parades have to do with Christians, but I was more so referring to the "conservative/fundie" Church. A mere relic of what Jesus once taught.
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