Homosexuality

[Hisbygrace]

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[addo]

These verses are a part of the Levitical holiness code and have nothing to do with Christians who are not under the law but under Grace.

So what ... ? Is there no Law anymore? Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. (Romans 3:31). And what else does the Holy Spirit say? What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. (Romans 6:15) What is sin? ...for sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4) So... shall we break (or transgress) the Law because we are not under the Law but under grace? **God forbid**(Romans 6:15)

Now let's even image that what you say is true. There is under the New Covenant a passage that says that homosexual sex is 'vile affection': For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. (Romans 1:26-27) Note that it speaks here of both lesbians and male homosexuals. So even though the Law would be 'done away' and we wouldn't have to follow commandments like those against homosexuality and bestiality, there is still in the New Covenant a place where homosexuality (practicing homosexual sex, to be more accurate) is condemned.

Thirdly, Christians are released from observance of OT laws under the new covenant... but methinks someone is less interested in actually attempting to understand any other point of view, and more interested in calling people liars.

Please give me proof that Christians are not to observe laws like these. Read the book of Romans.

What do you mean when you use the word "homosexuality"? I suspect that what you mean by it may be somewhat different to what TheUnwanted and/or I would mean by it. It might help if we could all come to a common understanding of what homosexuality is - then we could see for certain whether or not the Bible actually has anything at all to say about it (for example, whether it actually is offensive to God's holiness).

Erotic acts being practiced between too humans of the same sex. This would include sexual intercourse and other things similar.

 

[addo]

I just remembered a verse:

But if ye believe not his [Moses'] writings, how shall ye believe My words? ~John 5:47
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If you do not believe what Moses wrote, that homosexuality is wrong and that sex between two persons of the same sex is detestable, as he said (Leviticus 18:22), how are you going to believe the words of Jesus?

 

[David Brider]

Great idea! Didn't we already try this before? I think it is the physical manifestation of physical attraction, that when we see someone lustfully attractive and begin to fantasise, our worship (primary mind) is directed to carnality (ie the creation rather than creator).

Mm. I don't think I'd really call that (when it's directed at someone of the same gender as oneself) homosexuality per se, any more than I'd call it heterosexuality per se when it's directed at someone of the opposite gender to oneself. Rather, it's an aspect of sexuality for some people, and then most likely in certain circumstances. For most people - as far as I can tell - sexual orientation, whether hetero-, homo-, bi-, or whaever, manifests itself as what I can best describe as a background state. We only notice our sexual orientation if we meet, or see, someone to whom we're attracted. I guess for people with a high sex drive and/or desire for gratification it could be more of a problem, but that applies across the spectrum of sexual orientations.

David.

 

[David Brider]

David Brider,
Where scripture is unclear and on matters of church practice, they do, but they cant disagree with what is clear in scripture, what you are claiming is disagreement is in fact unbelief, which isn’t Christian.

It's not unbelief - it's just different belief. You see a handful of verses that might be about same-gender sex and believe they're saying "homosexuality is a sin."

I see the same handful of verses that might be about same-gender sex and believe that if you're right, and they actually are about same-gender sex (which I'm not 100% convinced by) and if they have universal application (again, not 100% convinced) then they say that same-gender sex is a sin (well, some of them do; others - such as the Romans 1 passage and the account of the destruction of Sodom - don't, but get lumped in with the ones that do)

But on the other hand, if you're wrong about either the verses in question being about same-gender sex (Leviticus 18:22, for example, is nowhere near as clearcut as is sometimes made out) or about them having universal application (which is the problem with reading any of the Bible - how much of it has application solely to the people to whom it was originally written, and how much of it has wider application to us living nearly a couple of millennia at least after it was written), then maybe they don't mean that same-gender sex is a sin.

Either way, they don't talk about homosexuality per se, so they're not actually saying "homosexuality is a sin."

What it describes as wicked and detestable in the Bible.

The Bible describes a number of things as wicked and detestable. What in particular do you have in mind as applying to homosexuality?

what are you meaning if not men in sexual relations with men instead of women?

By homosexuality? I'm meaning a sexual orientation which leads people to experience romantic and physical attractions to people of the same gender as themselves.

That can lead them to enter sexual relations with people of the same gender as themselves. But doesn't necessarily.

Would you say that the verses you refer to have anything to say to a homosexual who isn't in a relationship with someone of the same gender as himself? Or to a homosexual who is in a relationship with someone of the same gender as himself, but they're not sexually active?

David.

 

[Skipton]

David Brider,

It's not unbelief - it's just different belief.

No its not, its unbelief, the Bible refers to unbelief, help me overcome my unbelief.

I see the same handful of verses that might be about same-gender sex and believe that if you're right, and they actually are about same-gender sex (which I'm not 100% convinced by) and if they have universal application (again, not 100% convinced) then they say that same-gender sex is a sin (well, some of them do; others - such as the Romans 1 passage and the account of the destruction of Sodom - don't, but get lumped in with the ones that do)

Lies. The passages describe men with men instead of women, that’s same gender sex, it isnt acase of might, it is. Don’t lie.

But on the other hand, if you're wrong

I can only be wrong if the Bible is wrong.

The Bible describes a number of things as wicked and detestable. What in particular do you have in mind as applying to homosexuality?

The Bible describes men with men instead of the natural function with women as error, that’s homosexual. What did you have in mind as homosexual if not men with men and women with women? I thoink we have been through this and you are lying.

By homosexuality?

what do you think we are discussing?

I'm meaning a sexual orientation which leads people to experience romantic and physical attractions to people of the same gender as themselves.

If it includes men having sexual relations with men then it is sin and error.

Would you say that the verses you refer to have anything to say to a homosexual who isn't in a relationship with someone of the same gender as himself? Or to a homosexual who is in a relationship with someone of the same gender as himself, but they're not sexually active?

I would try and witness Christ to a homosexual, once they accept Christ they know same sex relations are error and sin.

 

[laureenoluv8]

I can't answer your question fully, but let me remind you that Jesus loves everybody, and He knows that you and everybody else in the world commit sin. If you inherit that personal relationship with Jesus...just ask Him in prayer for help. Ask Him to open a new door. With patience, trust, and faith, the Holy Spirit will do that for you. And remember, Jesus will never leave you no matter what happens.

John 5:24 says "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life."

So just ask Jesus. Let Him lead you in the path He's chosen for You. Keep your focus on Him and don't give up. Honestly this is a topic in which we cannot give you a good full answer. Many of the responses are opinions, and if I were you, I'd be feeling a bit puzzled right now.

I'll be praying for you. Feel free to send me a message if you have any other questions

(i may not be able to answer all of them but I'm willing to listen/help)

 

[Gemini_X]

There is nothing wrong with being homosexual, bisexual, transgendered, or any other orientation that is not heterosexual. I believe that if you are happy with who you are it shouldn't matter whether your gay or straight or anything in between. In my oppinion people need to learn that there is no right and wrong when it comes to love and who we love. If you aren't hurting anyone, how can love be a sin? It shouldn't matter whether it's between a man and a woman, two men, or two woman. Love is love and no one has the right to pick and choose which is wrong and sinful.

Also, sexual orientation is NOT a choice. I know this from personal experience. My whole life I just assumed that I was heterosexual, and then in grade 10 [nearly 5 years ago] I came slowly to the realization that I was also attracted to girls. As of right now I am a happy, healthy bi/pansexual girl, and my greatest wish is that everyone coud be as comfortable with who they are - no matter who that is - as I am.

My las point relates to the one above. Since sexual orientation is not a choice, homosexuality and the like cannot be cured. The mind is a very powerful thing, and if you are subjected to something often enough, you will believe it is the truth. If you are told over and over again that you are wrong because of who you are, eventually you will believe it, but no one and nothing can ever really change you. In other words, so-called "straight camps" and the like don't really work.

So I say, love who you love, be who you are, and don't be ashamed of it.

[Note: by "love" I mean all different sorts of love: romantic love, sexual love, etc].

 

[Dionysiou]

There is nothing wrong with being homosexual, bisexual, transgendered, or any other orientation that is not heterosexual. I believe that if you are happy with who you are it shouldn't matter whether your gay or straight or anything in between. In my oppinion people need to learn that there is no right and wrong when it comes to love and who we love. If you aren't hurting anyone, how can love be a sin? It shouldn't matter whether it's between a man and a woman, two men, or two woman. Love is love and no one has the right to pick and choose which is wrong and sinful.

Also, sexual orientation is NOT a choice. I know this from personal experience. My whole life I just assumed that I was heterosexual, and then in grade 10 [nearly 5 years ago] I came slowly to the realization that I was also attracted to girls. As of right now I am a happy, healthy bi/pansexual girl, and my greatest wish is that everyone coud be as comfortable with who they are - no matter who that is - as I am.

My las point relates to the one above. Since sexual orientation is not a choice, homosexuality and the like cannot be cured. The mind is a very powerful thing, and if you are subjected to something often enough, you will believe it is the truth. If you are told over and over again that you are wrong because of who you are, eventually you will believe it, but no one and nothing can ever really change you. In other words, so-called "straight camps" and the like don't really work.

So I say, love who you love, be who you are, and don't be ashamed of it.

[Note: by "love" I mean all different sorts of love: romantic love, sexual love, etc].

yes thats all very nice and everything for an agnostic. But the bible says otherwise, so you cant love whatever you want, not sexually anyway. i mean i cant go loving an animal, thats just wrong. also shame isnt necessarily a bad thing, it can be a good indicator. Some people are just confused though.

 

[Phinehas2]

Gemini X
Thanks for your post. Of course many people do not believe homosexuality is ordered, or natural, and as Christians we don’t either.
Most Christians do however accept the sincerity of your views, something that is not always recognised.

 

[addo]

There is nothing wrong with being homosexual, bisexual, transgendered, or any other orientation that is not heterosexual.

It is truly wrong because it is not normal. But since I don't believe there have been many successful attempts at converting homosexuals to heterosexuality, then there is nothing you can do about it. So being one, since I assume is not a choice, is not a sin. By being one I mean being open to the temptations to have sex with other people of the same sex, etc. Think about it this way: you are also open to a lot of temptations in this world, like smocking, committing adultery, blaspheming god, insulting, etc. but just because you are tempted doesn't mean you are committing a sin. And it is the same for homosexuals: just because they are tempted to to erotic stuff with other people of the same sex doesn't mean they are committing a sin. But they are committing a sin when they obey these temptations and do what is not permitted. But remember: "Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." (James 1:12 KJV)

I believe that if you are happy with who you are it shouldn't matter whether your gay or straight or anything in between.

It should matter. Many people are happy with being sinners in general. But there is a better way which leads to life.

In my oppinion people need to learn that there is no right and wrong when it comes to love and who we love.

Yes, there is. People love the world. People love Satan. Some people love lying. Some people love committing fornication. Other people love insulting. Other people love mocking at others (using sarcasm, irony, etc.). There is right and wrong in love.

If you aren't hurting anyone, how can love be a sin?

If by 'love' you mean sex, and in this case, between homosexuals, then I have news for you: gay sex has many health risks. Thus you are hurting yourself.

Also, you are hurting the body, if you are part of the Church. Paul said:"And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular." (1 Corinthians 12:26-27 KJV) If you were a Christian and started sinning you are suffering the disease of sin (Jesus is called the Doctor of sins, and God said in the Old Testament many times that He wanted to cure them).

Also, you are also hurt God (emotionally, I believe).

It shouldn't matter whether it's between a man and a woman, two men, or two woman. Love is love and no one has the right to pick and choose which is wrong and sinful.

God has the right, and He told us what is right and what is wrong in love. He has the right to choose what is wrong and sinful, in case you didn't know.

Also, sexual orientation is NOT a choice.

But acting upon this sexual orientation is a choice. Being gay is not sin, since it is not a choice. Acting gay is a sin for it is a choice. You cannot control your attraction but you can control whether you have sex with another person of the same sex.

I know this from personal experience. My whole life I just assumed that I was heterosexual, and then in grade 10 [nearly 5 years ago] I came slowly to the realization that I was also attracted to girls. As of right now I am a happy, healthy bi/pansexual girl, and my greatest wish is that everyone coud be as comfortable with who they are - no matter who that is - as I am.

Sure. What you describes is not sin. It would be sin if you were having sex with people of the same sex (or other erotic things).

So I say, love who you love, be who you are, and don't be ashamed of it.

This doesn't work. We could say: love the world, be a sinner and don't be ashamed of it. And this isn't true. We are not to love the world. We are to be holy, and there are things to be ashamed of. Remember that a shameless being has no limits, so shame in most cases is a good thing.

[Note: by "love" I mean all different sorts of love: romantic love, sexual love, etc].

But I go by this short definition of love: "Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres." (1 Corinthians 13:4-7 NIV) love ≠ sex. I love God but I don't have sex with Him. I love my parents but I don't have sex with them. I can love animals without practicing bestiality with them. Etc. So love isn't sex.

 

[Gemini_X]

@Dionysiou: I know the Bible says otherwise, I've been told that many times before, and I accept that. However, I didn't say it was right to love "whatever." The word I used was "who" or "whoever." There's a big difference. "Who" means people, "what" means something non-human. So yes, I stand by my belief that everyone has the right to love who they love.

@Phinehas2: I know that Christians don't see homosexuality as ordered or natural, and I accept and respect that. I was simply stating my belief, that love is love, and it shouldn't matter who you love as long as you're not hurting anyone. And I also know that most Christians accept my views even if they don't agree with them, as I accept your views that I don't agree with.

 

[Gemini_X]

It is truly wrong because it is not normal.

In my oppinion homosexuality is just as normal as heterosexuality. Just because homosexuals are a minority doesn't make them abnormal. That would be like saying people of different skin colour are abnormal.

Yes, there is. People love the world. People love Satan. Some people love lying. Some people love committing fornication. Other people love insulting. Other people love mocking at others (using sarcasm, irony, etc.). There is right and wrong in love.

People love all manner of things, I know this. The love I was talking about though, is the love you feel for someone special to you, whether it's a friend, a family member, a boy/girlfriend, a wife, or a husband. In that love I believe there is not right and wrong.

If by 'love' you mean sex, and in this case, between homosexuals, then I have news for you: gay sex has many health risks. Thus you are hurting yourself.

Any unsafe sex has health risks, not just gay sex. In fact, lesbians have the lowest AIDs rate of any sexual orientation, and in third world countries, AIDs is spread primarily through hetersexual sex. So the health risks have nothing really do to with the sexual orientation, and everything to to with whether or not the sex is safe: in other words, the people engaged in the sexual activities are using protection.

But acting upon this sexual orientation is a choice. Being gay is not sin, since it is not a choice. Acting gay is a sin for it is a choice. You cannot control your attraction but you can control whether you have sex with another person of the same sex.

Thank you for saying that being gay is not a choice. And yes, maybe acting out the temptations is a sin, and if I was Christian I would believe that, but isn't acting out any temptation a sin?

This doesn't work. We could say: love the world, be a sinner and don't be ashamed of it. And this isn't true. We are not to love the world. We are to be holy, and there are things to be ashamed of. Remember that a shameless being has no limits, so shame in most cases is a good thing.

What I was talking about, was don't be ashamed of who you are attracted to, don't be ashamed of who you love. Shame is good when we've done something wrong, but love is not wrong.

But I go by this short definition of love: "Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres." (1 Corinthians 13:4-7 NIV) love ≠ sex. I love God but I don't have sex with Him. I love my parents but I don't have sex with them. I can love animals without practicing bestiality with them. Etc. So love isn't sex.

I know that love does not equal sex. But love, romantic love, can lead to sex between two consenting partners. And like I said, I was talking about all different kinds of love: romantic love, sexual love/desire [aka lust I suppose so maybe it shouldn't be on this list], love for your family, love for your friends, love for what you believe in.

 

[Phinehas2]

Gemini X

@Phinehas2: I know that Christians don't see homosexuality as ordered or natural, and I accept and respect that. I was simply stating my belief, that love is love, and it shouldn't matter who you love as long as you're not hurting anyone. And I also know that most Christians accept my views even if they don't agree with them, as I accept your views that I don't agree with.

Thanks for your response, and its good that we recognise that we have different worldviews.
But I would like to continue on the point Addo made, that many people see all kinds of things as loving which others would not see as loving.
For the Christian pov, we see God’s love through Jesus Christ, a loving sacrificial and costly love. Our joy is not found in us, but in the truth of Jesus Christ and His teaching, Christ taught, when we hold to His teaching we will know the truth and the truth will set us free.
So our benchmark of love is a costly sacrificial one which is God’s purpose. It doesn’t even have the same understanding of hurt either, we see same sex relations as harmful to the individuals involved.

 

[addo]

In my oppinion homosexuality is just as normal as heterosexuality. Just because homosexuals are a minority doesn't make them abnormal. That would be like saying people of different skin colour are abnormal.

It is not abnormal because it is a minority. Sin is not normal and it's basically everywhere (in this world).

People love all manner of things, I know this. The love I was talking about though, is the love you feel for someone special to you, whether it's a friend, a family member, a boy/girlfriend, a wife, or a husband. In that love I believe there is not right and wrong.

Homosexuals also have the right to the love you describe above. But love between friends, family members, boyfriends, etc. is a type of love, and this type of love isn't romantic love; this love is care for one another, no envy no boast and no pride; it always forgives, hopes and perseveres; it seeks the other one's good and is not easily angered; it is patient, etc. This kind of love is a 'universal' love that is permitted to all people. But romantic love is the love found withing a marriage, and marriage is between man and woman. Romantic love is only found is (romantic) relationships, and these relationships, if they endure, will bring marriage. And marriage is between a man and a woman.

Any unsafe sex has health risks, not just gay sex.

Therefore you admit that gay sex does have health risks, thus when you have gay sex you are hurting yourself. And I didn't say otherwise. But pointing out other dangers doesn't eliminate the dangerousness of a thing. Taking drugs is bad, but pointing out how bad alcohol and smoking is isn't going to make drugs less dangerous. So yes, it is true that other types of sex are unhealthy, but that doesn't mean gay sex isn't too.

In fact, lesbians have the lowest AIDs rate of any sexual orientation,

Are we talking about lesbians only or homosexuality in general?

and in third world countries, AIDs is spread primarily through hetersexual sex.

That's because they do not obey a commandment of God that says: "Thou shalt not commit adultery" (Exodus 20:15) in the same way other people disobey what God says about homosexual acts (Leviticus 18:22; Romans 1:26-27; etc.). There is a fence called "marriage" that was put there for a reason and as someone said once: don’t tear down a fence until you know why it was put up. And the commandments against homosexuality (and against all of the rest of the sins, by the way) are also "fences" (restrictions) that were put there for a reason.

So the health risks have nothing really do to with the sexual orientation, and everything to to with whether or not the sex is safe: in other words, the people engaged in the sexual activities are using protection.

What do you mean by "protection"? Condoms?

Thank you for saying that being gay is not a choice. And yes, maybe acting out the temptations is a sin, and if I was Christian I would believe that, but isn't acting out any temptation a sin?

On any temptation to sin. But being attracted to a person of the same sex and being tempted to sin is not a sin in itself, but loosing your control and doing what is not permitted is sin and you are going to be accountable for that, because it was a choice.

So yes, it is. But just because acting on other temptations are sin as well doesn't make acting upon the temptations of homosexuality not a sin. So what then? Because there are other temptations in which we can fall that lead to sin ... does that mean that falling into the tempations of homosexuality isn't a sin? This is a rhetorical question. No answer needed.

What I was talking about, was don't be ashamed of who you are attracted to, don't be ashamed of who you love. Shame is good when we've done something wrong, but love is not wrong.

In this context, as long as love isn't a 'romantic' love (with the same sex person).

Now I remember something Paul said: "Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." (Romans 13:10). But I don't think Paul had sex or other romantic things in mind when he said love. Because if he had romantic things in mind, then a man who is married having sex or doing other romantic stuff with his neighbor (and not his wife), for example, he'd not be doing a sin, but we know that he is doind is a sin, and it is called "adultery".

I know that love does not equal sex. But love, romantic love, can lead to sex between two consenting partners. And like I said, I was talking about all different kinds of love: romantic love, sexual love/desire [aka lust I suppose so maybe it shouldn't be on this list], love for your family, love for your friends, love for what you believe in.

Perhaps, for we are called to love everyone. But Jesus said that above all, we are to love God the most, and this is no exception. We are called to love all men (and women), but we are called to love God even more. And Jesus, who didn't speak from Himself but from the Father (John 8:28), said: "If ye love me, keep my commandments" (John 14:15 KJV) and it is also written: "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous" (1 John 5:3 KJV). And Jesus, who is the word of God (John 1:14), is against homosexual practices. If you love God as you should you obey His commandments, and His commandments are against homosexual practices. Remember that "...he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever" (1 John 2:17 KJV) and that His commandments are not grievous (1 John 5:30.
___

Are you a Christian?

 

[Gemini_X]

@Phinehas2 and @addo: Thank you both for your responses. I would answer them, but I'm not really supposed to be posting in this thread, due to the fact that I am not Christian. Hopefully I didn't offend anyone [I don't think I did], and if I did I'm sorry.

 

[onemorequestion]

But in my view, I am gay and im content to be gay. I couldnt be a christian if that means i cant actually be intimate with another man

Here it is in black and white from a gay person.

So, why not start and support a Gay Christian Denomination?

Like Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses, recognize that your theology differs SO wildly from orthodox/historical/Bible-based Christian theology, that you will openly declare what you stand for, and why, and allow people to join or oppose OPENLY.

That way, "the world" can see that there is a difference between Christians and them.

 

[Jase]

That way, "the world" can see that there is a difference between Christians and them.

The "world" already sees the difference between Christians and "them" and the Christians are not the more positively viewed of the two.

 

[OllieFranz]

Here it is in black and white from a gay person.

So, why not start and support a Gay Christian Denomination?

Like Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses, recognize that your theology differs SO wildly from orthodox/historical/Bible-based Christian theology, that you will openly declare what you stand for, and why, and allow people to join or oppose OPENLY.

That way, "the world" can see that there is a difference between Christians and them.

Actually, both JW and and LDS are considered by their members to be Biblical Christianity. But I understand what you mean, though. They both differ from the Christian theology of the mainstream in several areas that involve core beliefs attested to in the creeds, most notably in the doctrine of salvation and the doctrine of the Trinity.

The gay and gay-accepting Christians that post in this forum, however, are in agreement with the mainstream on those issues. And, in fact, on every issue expressed in the creeds. They do not differ from any mainstream Christian on any essential doctrine, and no more on non-essential teachings than any two mainstream Christians differ from one another.

Paul tells us (in Romans 14, among other places) that there will be differences in the minor teachings, including whether or not a given practice is sin. If one Christian has doubts whether a given food can be eaten, or a given ritual can be ignored because the Hebrew scriptures have taught centuries of Jews that the food must be avoided, or the ritual performed, Paul tells us not to place a stumbling block before them. So, in the spirit of that teaching, I want to assure you that no one insists that you must engage in "gay sex" or force you to watch it in approval. (Or to watch it at all, for that matter).

But in those same passages, Paul tells us not to "despise" or to judge those who believe that the Law of the Spirit allows them freedom in this area. In another letter, Paul warns those who claim this freedom that "All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable." But here in Romans 14, Paul tells us that if they believe that they can do these things "unto the Lord," then it becomes a matter between them and the Lord, and none of our business. They have to answer to Jesus in the Judgment, not to us in the here and now.

BTW, there is a denomination that was founded on the principle of acceptance of gays -- the MCC. There is also a denomination that has encouraged its member churches to be welcoming, to invite people, even gay people, to come know the Lord, rather than to chase them away as unrepentant and irredeemable -- the UCC. And the Anglican Union is moving in that direction. And in many other denominations, individual church congregations have decided to be more welcoming.

 

[razeontherock]

JW and and LDS both differ from the Christian theology of the mainstream in several areas that involve core beliefs attested to in the creeds, most notably in the doctrine of salvation and the doctrine of the Trinity.

Even though this is off topic, they differ primarily in who they say Jesus is.

The gay and gay-accepting Christians that post in this forum, however, are in agreement with the mainstream on those issues.
But in those same passages, Paul tells us not to "despise" or to judge those who believe that the Law of the Spirit allows them freedom in this area.

Perhaps this is the best way of defining this issue in our day:

there's no such thing as "not accepting" homosexuals. Clearly they exist, Jesus shed the same blood for them as for anybody else, and shooing them away from Salvation places their guilt and blood upon our hands.

That is quite distinct from saying "the Law of the Spirit allows them freedom in this area." I keep trying to get the pro-gay side to put the Scriptural basis for this in one place, but nobody has stepped up to do that yet. I see a little snip here and there, some of which seems to have merit, but never anything that deals with the whole of Scripture. It shouldn't be that hard, there's not much Scripture on it.