Can Human beings limit God?

Yekcidmij · Sep 1, 2009

probinson said:
But not until all of the first generation had died in the wilderness. Thus, even though it was God's plan for those people to enter into the Promised Land, believing the "evil report" kept them from seeing God's plan for their lives fulfilled.

Again, I haven't been talking about specific plans God does or doesn't have for individuals. I think the bible speaks very little to that. God's plan seemed to be to put Israel into the promised land, and indeed that did occur. I think it's virtually irrelevant as to which generation it was. I think part of this has to do with the collectivist mindset that is represented in the ancient near east, and much of the world today. The second generation of the exodus people entering Canaan was still God fulfilling His promise to Israel. The promises were to Israel, as a whole, not to ONE generation of Israelites.

Perhaps if that 1st generation had been faithful they would have personally experienced the promises. But that matters little with regards to the plan to enter Canaan. That plan was accomplished.

Another example, let's say I'm a WWII regiment commander and I promise my regiment that we are going to take Berlin. When my regiment arrives in Berlin and captures it let's say that we have had 98% casualties since we began. The plan has still been accomplished though those who initially heard my words didn't see the fulfillment of them.

probinson · Sep 1, 2009

Yekcidmij said:
Again, I haven't been talking about specific plans God does or doesn't have for individuals. I think the bible speaks very little to that. God's plan seemed to be to put Israel into the promised land, and indeed that did occur. I think it's virtually irrelevant as to which generation it was. I think part of this has to do with the collectivist mindset that is represented in the ancient near east, and much of the world today. The second generation of the exodus people entering Canaan was still God fulfilling His promise to Israel. The promises were to Israel, as a whole, not to ONE generation of Israelites.

Perhaps if that 1st generation had been faithful they would have personally experienced the promises. But that matters little with regards to the plan to enter Canaan. That plan was accomplished.

The question of the OP is, can human beings limit God? The answer, I believe, is yes and no. In our own lives, we can limit God, and the example of that one generation of Israelites shows that. That generation did not follow God's plan, and therefore, they limited what God wanted to do for them. Their choice to believe the "evil report" caused them to NEVER see God's will for them fulfilled.

Now on a greater scale, can we "limit" God? No. For example, we can't prevent Jesus' return by our actions/inactions. God is not willing that any should perish, but that won't prevent His will to return.

IOW, I believe that there are certain things that ARE going to happen, regardless of what we say or do, but I also believe that we can, by our choices/actions/inactions, limit what God wants to do in our lives, and potentially, the lives of others.

Yekcidmij · Sep 1, 2009

probinson said:
The question of the OP is, can human beings limit God? The answer, I believe, is yes and no. In our own lives, we can limit God, and the example of that one generation of Israelites shows that. That generation did not follow God's plan, and therefore, they limited what God wanted to do for them. Their choice to believe the "evil report" caused them to NEVER see God's will for them fulfilled.

Now on a greater scale, can we "limit" God? No. For example, we can't prevent Jesus' return by our actions/inactions. God is not willing that any should perish, but that won't prevent His will to return.

IOW, I believe that there are certain things that ARE going to happen, regardless of what we say or do, but I also believe that we can, by our choices/actions/inactions, limit what God wants to do in our lives, and potentially, the lives of others.

I have no quarrell with any of that necessarily.

MrBojangles · Sep 1, 2009

Only two people of that former group entered. Joshua and Caleb. They were the two who believed God, gave a good report, and so entered in.
NONE of those who rebelled against the promise entered. They all died in the wilderness.
But this was in the plan of God. If they rebell against my promise, they will die in the wilderness... if they believe, they will enter in.
Same way today.
Those who take hold of the promises enter in and eat the good of the land. Those who rebell against God and His promises die in the wilderness.
Happens every day.

msbojingles · Sep 1, 2009

MrBojangles said:
Only two people of that former group entered. Joshua and Caleb. They were the two who believed God, gave a good report, and so entered in.
NONE of those who rebelled against the promise entered. They all died in the wilderness.
But this was in the plan of God. If they rebell against my promise, they will die in the wilderness... if they believe, they will enter in.
Same way today.
Those who take hold of the promises enter in and eat the good of the land. Those who rebell against God and His promises die in the wilderness.
Happens every day.

Dood.

Love the name.

Jedi.Kep · Sep 8, 2009

lismore said:
Can Human beings limit God? If people do not obey, are his plans thwarted?

Or are God's plans inevitable?

This is the best example I can come up with. I pray for a better one, but hopefully this explains my thoughts.

Consider Chess. God is the chessmaster. If anyone has ever played against a chessmaster will tell you, they are thinking 15+ moves ahead of you. You don't play them, they play you. A good chessmaster can get you to move exactly where he wants you to so he can get you into checkmate, and most times, we don't even realize He is doing it.

The goal is checkmate. We could call it God's plan for our life. God knows how to manuver the pieces to get you there in checkmate/God's plan for your life. But here's the catch. You can still move whatever piece you want to.

I can move the pawn, the knight, the Queen, etc. But God is always planning to get you into checkmate/His plan for your life. We may make all kinds of moves to avoid it, or we can arrive at it by moving different pieces, but the end result will still be the same. God will put us into checkmate/ His plan for our lives.

We can wilingly play, or we can refuse to play. When we refuse to play, we limit God. When we make an illegal move, we limit God's plan, because we have to back up and replay by the right rules. Either way, the board, pawns, and rules are all God's. If we play by His rules, we will be blessed! I want God's plan for my life and I do my best to get into checkmate as early as I can. I'm told that the shortest way to check mate can be made in three to five moves. That's where I want to be.

Anyway, yes, we can limit God's plan for our lives. I've done it. God had a plan for me and I hindered His plan for my life by my ungodly choices of the past. My bad. His plan is still the same and I'm on the right path now. He just has to get things lined up right again. This time, I won't miss it.

Blessings to you.

NaLuvena · Sep 8, 2009

lismore said:
Can Human beings limit God? If people do not obey, are his plans thwarted?

Or are God's plans inevitable?

I'd say that God's plans are inevitable. We may think that we are thwarting God at times, but when we look closely, we see that this is because we simply misunderstood God's plan.

The example used here is personal disobedience - sin. Now when God gives us a choice, He has allowed in His plan for us to choose, and He has willed to go along with our choice. In other words, the choice is ours, and so are the consequences of the choices we make. Everyone who made the choice not to obey God and enter Canaanin the exodus from Egypt, died.

Choice and consequence.

IMO, this can't be used as an example that one has thwarted God's plan, because THIS IS PART of God's plan.

Jesus said:

John 6:39

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

I'd like to see someone thwart that one.

We end up thinking we have thwarted God's plan, because we misunderstand God's plan. Joseph told his brother that their selling him was intended (by them) for evil, but God allowed it for good.

If God's plans could be thwarted by us, then IMO, He would not be worthy of my worship. He would not be the God He claims to be here:

Proverbs 16:9

In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.

Proverbs 19:21

Many are the plans in a man's heart, but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails.

Proverbs 21:30

There is no wisdom, no insight, no plan that can succeed against the LORD.

One of the reasons why I believe in God, Jesus and the Spirit, is because despite all my failings and efforts to the contrary, He has kept me and has guaranteed my salvation. For this I give Him glory.

Trish1947 · Sep 8, 2009

In regards to entering the promised land. I sort of look at it this way. It appears that God did not need them in particular to fulfill His plans. God has no problems at all in waiting for another generation to arise to give His blessings too. He wasn't at any time unwilling to bless them, they were the ones that were unwilling to receive it because of fear and unbelief. So I don't see how His plans in themselves get thwarted, and unrealized. He just passes them along to others that are willing.

goldenboy · Feb 5, 2010

lismore said:
Can Human beings limit God? If people do not obey, are his plans thwarted?

Or are God's plans inevitable?

We can, indeed, limit God.
"And Jesus could there do no might miracles, because of their unbelief." Matthew 8?
Also, I want to say Psalm 78, but, David pointed out that the Exodus losers, Israeli, that is, 'limited the Holy One of Israel." Not a good thing to do.

Best wishes,
goldenboy

Yekcidmij · Feb 5, 2010

goldenboy said:
We can, indeed, limit God.
"And Jesus could there do no might miracles, because of their unbelief." Matthew 8?
Also, I want to say Psalm 78, but, David pointed out that the Exodus losers, Israeli, that is, 'limited the Holy One of Israel." Not a good thing to do.

Best wishes,
goldenboy

I think that Jesus' rejection at Nazareth didn't mean that he couldn't do miracles, as if he lacked the ability, but that he couldn't do any mighty works because of their hostility.

Matt 13:57-58 And they took offense at him. But Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor except in his own country and in his own house." And he did not do many mighty works there, because of their unbelief.

Mark 6:4-5 And Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor, except in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house." And he could do no mighty work there, except that he laid his hands upon a few sick people and healed them.

First, and most important, is to realize that this passage is NOT about Jesus' ability to heal or not. The point of the passage is Jesus' rejection by the home crowd, so pulling things out of the passage that the author was not intending to communicate is speculative from the start and any further speculation beyond the authors point shouldn't fail to account for the main point of the passage. Secondly, it's important to realize that this story of Jesus' rejection by the home crowd occurs in all 3 synoptic gospels, so any adequate exegesis or theory will account for all three retellings of the story.

Notably, Luke 4 tells of Jesus' rejection at Nazareth, but says nothing about Jesus' lack of healing there. Luke's version is important because Luke doesn't seem to care about Jesus' healing/not-healing in Nazareth. For him, the point of the story (in keeping with the point of Matthew and Mark) is Jesus' rejection by the village. In Luke's version we also have additional information about Jesus' encounters with the village, because in Luke, the people aren't just openly offended or merely hostile to Jesus, they try to kill him!

Matthew and Mark are very similiar. The point is still, like Luke, Jesus' rejection by the Nazareth village. Regarding Jesus' healings/not-healings in Nazareth, Matthew phrases things differently than Mark. Matthew says that Jesus did not do many works there because of the people's "unbelief". Mark, on the other hand, says that Jesus could do no might work there because of their unbelief. What Mark DOESNT say is that He didn't have the ability to do mighty works, in fact, Mark reports Jesus healing people in Nazareth!

So what's going on here? The point is that the people in Nazareth were rejecting Jesus. That is the authors intent in the passage. He didn't do many things there, not because of their lack of mental assent to his message, but because of their open hostility toward him. If Jesus had done many mighty works there, they would have probably killed him as Luke says they were ready to do after Jesus insults them in the synagogue. This doesn't speak to Jesus' ability, or lack thereof, because of the metal state of the people (as if their mental states had a causal affect on the power God has), but it speaks toward Jesus' wisdom, discretion, and His ultimate goals. Jesus didn't do anything in Nazareth because of lack of loyalty of Jesus' hometown toward him and their open hostility.

In the broader context of the gospel stories, it certainly doesn't appear that the people of Nazareth limited God's power at all since He accomplished exactly what He intended to from the start. Had the people of Nazareth really limited God's power, then the cross would not have occured. In the gospel stories, for the people of Nazareth to limit God's power (and his demonstration of it), they would have killed Jesus, thrown him in prison, submitted to him, or something else that somehow stopped the cross from occuring.

To say that the Nazareth people limited God's power due to their lack of belief is to read into this passage something that Matthew, Mark, and Luke were not interested in communicating at all.

Blade · Feb 8, 2010

lismore said:
Can Human beings limit God? If people do not obey, are his plans thwarted?

Or are God's plans inevitable?

real easy.. if God has His way we would ALL be saved. So yes we can very easy. But if your a child you believe EVERYTHING!

JimB · Feb 9, 2010

lismore said:
Can Human beings limit God? If people do not obey, are his plans thwarted?

*****

Nope. Nothing can limit God. We are privileged to be included in Gods plans but they will be accomplished with or without us. I can go along with God or I can stay behind but whatever miniscule efforts I exert either way in no way diminishes or advances Gods purposes.

An elephant and a flea crossed a bridge. The flea looked back and said to the elephant, "Man did we ever shake that bridge."

~Jim

Ever notice how society honors its present conformists and its past troublemakers?

probinson · Feb 9, 2010

JimB said:
Nope. Nothing can limit God.

Psalm 78:41 (KJV)
Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel.

Yekcidmij · Feb 9, 2010

probinson said:
Psalm 78:41 (KJV)
Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel.

tavah there does not mean "limited". It means something more like "offended" (see Brown-Driver-Briggs), which actually makes more sense in the literary context. The passage recalls the wilderness experience of the Hebrew. In this passage, the Hebrew aren't "limiting" Him, they are ticking Him off; they are rebelling, insulting, being unfaithful, and forgetting what He had done for them. The result was not that they "limited" Him; the result was that He lashed out at them:

78:59 God heard and was angry;
he completely rejected Israel.
78:60 He abandoned the sanctuary at Shiloh,.....
78:61 He allowed the symbol of his strong presence to be captured;.....
78:62 He delivered his people over to the sword,....
78:63 Fire consumed their young men,
and their virgins remained unmarried.
78:64 Their priests fell by the sword,
but their widows did not weep.
78:65 But then the Lord awoke from his sleep;
he was like a warrior in a drunken rage.
78:66 He drove his enemies back;
he made them a permanent target for insults.
78:67 He rejected the tent of Joseph;
he did not choose the tribe of Ephraim.

They didn't limit Him; they made Him mad; they offended Him. The result was not that His power was limited, but that He turned His power against them.

This goes well with the parallelism that occurs in vs 41 as well:

78:41 They challenged God,
and offended the Holy One of Israel.

The parallelism indicates, as well as the literary context, that they are ticking Him off, not 'limiting' Him.

(cf: NASB, NIV, NRSV, ESV, NET)

hislegacy · Feb 9, 2010

Matthew 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

What?! God wanted to do something and was limited, (could not gather them), in doing so by the peoples will?!

Mark 6:1 Then He went out from there and came to His own country, and His disciples followed Him. 2 And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue. And many hearing Him were astonished, saying, Where did this Man get these things? And what wisdom is this which is given to Him, that such mighty works are performed by His hands! 3 Is this not the carpenter, the Son of Mary, and brother of James, Joses, Judas, and Simon? And are not His sisters here with us? So they were offended at Him.
4 But Jesus said to them, A prophet is not without honor except in his own country, among his own relatives, and in his own house. 5 Now He could do no mighty work there, except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them. 6 And He marveled because of their unbelief. Then He went about the villages in a circuit, teaching.

How interesting - Jesus COULD, was not able to, do no mighty works. Sounds like He was limited.

probinson · Feb 9, 2010

Yekcidmij said:
tavah there does not mean "limited". It means something more like "offended" (see Brown-Driver-Briggs), which actually makes more sense in the literary context. The passage recalls the wilderness experience of the Hebrew. In this passage, the Hebrew aren't "limiting" Him, they are ticking Him off; they are rebelling, insulting, being unfaithful, and forgetting what He had done for them. The result was not that they "limited" Him; the result was that He lashed out at them:

But they limited, for themselves, what God wanted for them. God wanted them to walk into the Promised Land, but by choosing to believe the "evil report", they "limited" what He had for them.

This is not to say that the ultimate plan of God can be "limited", but we most certainly can "limit" God in our lives, and that is what this passage shows us.

JimB · Feb 10, 2010

JimB said:
Nope. Nothing can limit God.

probinson said:
Psalm 78:41 (KJV)
Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel.

Really? Every other translation I have read (other than your preferred KJV translation) has “provoked” or “vexed” God, not “limited” God. Check me out on this HERE.

~Jim

Ever notice how society honors its present conformists and its past troublemakers?

The Penitent Man · Feb 10, 2010

Human beings cannot limit God. But they like to think they can.

Denying Him is a very popular way of limiting Him.

JimB · Feb 10, 2010

God has limited himself but we cannot limit him. God has granted freewill to us and allowed our will to trump his. For example, it is God’s will that all come to repentance but allows eternal life only to those who do. Though it is God’s will that every human come to Christ, they will not. God knew this from the foundation of the world and has allowed it. Thus, God has limited his will to our freewill regarding repentance and salvation. Our freewill is also in his will.

~Jim

Ever notice how society honors its present conformists and its past troublemakers?

Jedi.Kep · Feb 10, 2010

Can Human beings limit God?

Absolutely.

If people do not obey, are his plans thwarted?

Absolutely in some cases. Not in others.

Or are God's plans inevitable?

That depends on which plans are being talked about.

Can Human beings limit God?

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