Reve 16 and Great Hail question

Greetings. How do other Christians here view this event in Reve 16:21. Is the hailstones falling from Heaven literal or is it symbolic. This is the only place in the NT that uses this word though it is used a number of times in the OT. Please just keep this on the topic of the "hailstones". Thanks

Reve 16:21 And Hail/calaza <5464>great as talent-weight is descending out of the Heaven upon the Men, and blaspheme the God the Men out of the blow of the Hail/calazhV <5464> , that great is the blow of it/her, tremendous. [LXX # 5464 used in Ezekiel 38:22]

Textus Rec.) Revelation 16:21 kai calaza megalh wV talantiaia katabainei ek tou ouranou epi touV anqrwpouV kai eblasfhmhsan oi anqrwpoi ton qeon ek thV plhghV thV calazhV oti megalh estin h plhgh authV sfodra

5464. chalaza khal'-ad-zah probably from 5465; hail:--hail. Used 4 times Reve 8:7, 11:19, Reve 16:21 [2 times]
5465. chalao khal-ah'-o from the base of 5490; to lower (as into a void):--let down, strike.
========================
Some links:

Revelation 8 Commentary- Plagued by Trumpets

IBSS - The Bible - Revelation
100 lb. Hailstones
Revelation 16:21 tells how huge hailstones fell from heaven weighing a talent which is about 100 pounds. Josephus describes 100 lb. white stones coming from Roman catapults down on the Jews in Jerusalem (Jewish Wars, Book 5.6.3).

https://www.kennethgentry.com/catalog/apocalypse.htm
The prophecy of the talent weight hailstones has found a similar fulfillment in the siege of Jerusalem, according to the preterist. Josephus states of the catapults of the Roman tenth legion: "the stones that were cast, were of the weight of a talent, and were carried two furlongs and further.... As for the Jews, they at first watched the coming of the stone, for it was a white color" (Wars 5:6:3). These stones not only had the weight required by John, but were the same color as hail.
The Babylon of Revelation is Referring to Jerusalem

Great hail weighing one talent is said to fall upon men there (Revelation 16:21).
Josephus tells of the Roman catapults being used to cast whitewashed boulders over the walls of Jerusalem and they each weighed one talent.

Go to 1 minute mark for catapaults
The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

As a consequence, the legions were able to build their redoubts almost without any trouble; soon, their catapults started to throw heavy stones into the city. Under cover of this artillery fire, the Roman soldiers could start to bash the northern wall with their battering-rams.
====================

I believe they are litteral.

Stryder06 said:

I believe they are litteral.

Click to expand...

Thanks you for your response.
Can you elaborate on why you view them as literal hailstones from Heaven? Thanks

I regret that I don't presently have the time to research this more,
but I did recall that in the NT, when God spoke some heard thunder and others His words. Of clouds in the OT and NT, there is a spiritual understanding to those mentioned. In sum, the physical manifestations described in the scriptures are often not "just" a matter of weather.

Thekla said:

I regret that I don't presently have the time to research this more,
but I did recall that in the NT, when God spoke some heard thunder and others His words. Of clouds in the OT and NT, there is a spiritual understanding to those mentioned. In sum, the physical manifestations described in the scriptures are often not "just" a matter of weather.

Click to expand...

Thank you Thekla.
Here is something else interesting and why I view "armegeddon/gog-magog" as one and the same event
The word used for hail in Revelation is only used in Ezekiel 38 according to the LXX and it was by looking at the LXX that really brought the Jewish/Hebrew book of Revelation to life. This is pretty fascinating

Reve 16:21 And Hail/calaza <5464>great as talent-weight is descending out of the Heaven upon the Men, and blaspheme the God the Men out of the blow of the Hail/calazhV <5464> , that great is the blow of it/her, tremendous. [# 5464 used in Ezekiel 38:22]

Ezekiel 38:22 "And I am judeged him in plague and in blood and downpour overflowing and stones of hail/417 'elgabiysh/# 5464 xalazhv of fire and sulphur I shall rain on him and all troops of him and on peoples many ones who with him

[LXX] Ezeki 38:22 kai krinw auton qanatw kai aimati kai uetw katakluzonti kai liqoiv xalazhv kai pur kai qeion brecw ep' auton kai epi pantav touv met' autou kai ep' eqnh polla met' autou

although here's one:

Psalm 17:12*
"from the radiance of His presence the clouds went by; hail (xalaza) and coals of fire"

* Masoretic #ing, in the LXX its 18:12

(interesting, "halal" or its equivalent means blessing in Turkish (?), Hebrew and Greek use )

Thekla said:

although here's one:

Psalm 17:12*
"from the radiance of His presence the clouds went by; hail (xalaza) and coals of fire"

* Masoretic #ing, in the LXX its 18:12

(interesting, "halal" or its equivalent means blessing in Turkish (?), Hebrew and Greek use )

Click to expand...

Thanks again. So how do you view that "hail" as I would like everyone that responds to vote first?

LittleLambofJesus said:

Thanks again. So how do you view that "hail"?

Click to expand...

That the presence of the glory of God is "painful" for those who have turned from Him. Not unlike the Israelites being unable to bear the glory shining on the face of Moses.

This is not to say that the hail is not a real manifestation, just as the voice of God is experienced by some as "just thunder".

Thekla said:

That the presence of the glory of God is "painful" for those who have turned from Him. Not unlike the Israelites being unable to bear the glory shining on the face of Moses.

This is not to say that the hail is not a real manifestation, just as the voice of God is experienced by some as "just thunder".

Click to expand...

So what would your vote be based on that

I would like to ask those here not to respond unless you vote first. Thanks

LittleLambofJesus said:

So what would your vote be based on that

Click to expand...

Sorry for what follows, if it seems "dense"

but the symbolic "includes" the literal (symbolic sort of means that the "part shows forth the whole, as a visible of the whole"). The hail is a physical showing of the spiritual, and the two are not separate. The particular manifestation of hail "shows" a truth about the spiritual that it "interprenetrates with" (ie, it is not water, or oil, or thunder, etc).

So my vote is it is symbol and therefore both literal and spiritual.

Sorry for that mess
(I voted "other")

Thekla said:

Sorry for what follows, if it seems "dense"

but the symbolic "includes" the literal (symbolic sort of means that the "part shows forth the whole, as a visible of the whole"). The hail is a physical showing of the spiritual, and the two are not separate. The particular manifestation of hail "shows" a truth about the spiritual that it "interprenetrates with" (ie, it is not water, or oil, or thunder, etc).

So my vote is it is symbol and therefore both literal and spiritual.

Sorry for that mess
(I voted "other")

Click to expand...

Thank you Thekla and you are not "dense" in my view neither is your post a "mess".

Please bear with me while I introduce some information from a book which for many of you is extra-biblical. Even if you do not esteem The Book of Enoch, canonical, (as is done by Ethiopian Orthodoxy), nevertheless, since it is demonstrable that The Book of Enoch was written before the Christian era, therefore parallels between it and the New Testament have significance, do they not?

Revelation 16:21 parallels the following passage from Enoch's book:

Enoch 88:1-3, reads, "And I saw one of those four [Archangels] who had come forth first, and he seized that first star [Azazel] which had fallen from the heaven, and bound it hand and foot and cast it into an abyss: now that abyss was narrow and deep, and horrible and dark.

"And one of them drew a sword, and gave it to those elephants and camels and asses [Nephilim]: then they began to smite each other, and the whole earth quaked because of them.

"And as I was beholding in the vision, lo, one of those four who had come forth stoned them from heaven, and gathered and took all the great stars whose privy members were like those of horses, and bound them all hand and foot, and cast them in an abyss of the earth."

[brackets indicate text added by me for clarification]

So that you don't have to read the entire book, I'll summarize the context. The "four who come forth" in the passage above are four of seven Archangels (Uriel, Raphael, Gabriel and Michael) who are involved in handing out God's judgments on earth prior to the flood of Noah's day. Prior to the flood of Noah's day, per Enoch's book, there is a period of earthly tribulation, (the "whole earth quaked" in the passage above), during which the seven Archangels pour out God's wrath upon the earth. Before this 120-year tribulation[sup]*[/sup] period, the ring-leader of the sinning angels, ("that first star" in the passage above), is bound and imprisoned in the Abyss.

The 120-year tribulation period is characterized mainly by internecine warfare between the various groups of offspring, (the "elephants and camels and asses" in the passage above), which came from the unions of sinning angels with human wives. While this civil war is on-going, one of the Archangels is said to help the process along by "ston[ing] them from heaven" in the passage above.

It is the contention of the New Testament that life upon earth during the period before the return of Christ will be like that of the period before the flood of Noah's day. John's mention of "hailstones from heaven" echoes the words of the Book of Enoch in this way.

Personally, I believe the stoning from heaven past and the hailstones from heaven future are both actual events in space and time.

[sup]*[/sup]Per the Books of Enoch and Jubilees

*snip* quote summa: ...........It is the contention of the New Testament that life upon earth during the period before the return of Christ will be like that of the period before the flood of Noah's day. John's mention of "hailstones from heaven" echoes the words of the Book of Enoch in this way.

Personally, I believe the stoning from heaven past and the hailstones from heaven future are both actual events in space and time.

Click to expand...

Interesting perspective as the days of Noah is mentioned in the Gospels by JESUS.
I may make a thread on that sometime in the future........

Matthew 24:38 For as they were in the days, those, to-the before the flood eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage until which day entered Noah into the Ark,
39 and not they know until came the deludge and lifts/takes-up/hren <142> (5656) All. Thus shall be also the parousia <3952> of the Son of the Man. [Luke 17:26, 27]

I believe these to be symbolic. I also believe this is something that happened in the 1st century in the sacking of Jersualem by the Romans. The hailstones described are actually boulders that were thrown from the Roman catapults. Josephus describes the event in detail. The stones were white and also weighed one talent. So, in my opinion, it's an already fulfilled prophecy. The huge white boulders looked like hailstones falling from heaven.

Look lloj . . . no baseball references!

go cards

PujolsNonRoidHomerHitter said:

I believe these to be symbolic. I also believe this is something that happened in the 1st century in the sacking of Jersualem by the Romans. The hailstones described are actually boulders that were thrown from the Roman catapults.
Josephus describes the event in detail. The stones were white and also weighed one talent. So, in my opinion, it's an already fulfilled prophecy. The huge white boulders looked like hailstones falling from heaven.

Look lloj . . . no baseball references!

go cards

Click to expand...

I am of that view also

http://www.davieapostolicchurch.com/studies/destuct/

History records few events more generally interesting than the destruction of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the Jewish state, by the arms of the Romans.

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7164949&page=2
DO NOT WEEP!!!!! The Great City

Luke 19:41 And as He nears being aware the City He laments upon Her 42 saying "that if thou knew and thou even indeed in the day, this, the toward Peace of thee, now yet it was Hid from thy eyes. 43 That shall be arriving days upon thee and thy Enemies shall be casting up a siege-work to thee and shall be encompassing thee and pressing thee every which place. 44 and they shall be leveling thee and the offspring of thee in thee and not they shall be leaving stone upon stone in thee stead which not thou knew the time of the visitation of thee.

Reve 14:8 And another Messenger, second-one follows saying "she falls she falls, Babylon the Great, the out of the wine of the fury of the fornication of her she has given to drink all the nations. [Jeremiah 51:8]

Thanks to all who have contributed so far.
Any others with views on the "hail" in Revelation? Thanks

Hmmm.....not enough votes yet....

Hmm.....this thread seems to have gone "dead" quick

Matt 4:16 The people, the one-sitting in darkness perceived a Light, great.
And/also to-the ones-sitting in part and shadow of death, a Light springs-up to-them. [Isaiah 60:2,3/John 1:4]

I broke the tie.
We win


I take it as symbolic. Hail being a sign of judgement.