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What is "The Great tribulation"?

Spiritual Jew

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The day of the Lord (when God's wrath is poured out) begins when the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood. The rapture will take place "anytime" between now and then.
You apparently misunderstood the question. I'll try again. Can you tell me why the rapture would need to occur before the 1335 day great tribulation you believe in? Nothing you said indicates the reason why that would need to happen. Do you think God is incapable of protecting His own people from His wrath? I understand the need for the rapture to occur before the final wrath comes down upon the entire earth when Christ returns, but why would it need to happen any time before that? That's really the question I'm getting at here.
 
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Douggg

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So, in your view, the last trumpet is the last of two trumpets. That's a completely unconvincing argument. But, at least you finally indicated in what sense you think it's the LAST trumpet. Not sure why you couldn't have said this in the first place when I asked that question.
Can you find another trumpet of a group of people being called to meet God?
 
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Douggg

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You apparently misunderstood the question. I'll try again. Can you tell me why the rapture would need to occur before the 1335 day great tribulation you believe in?
Your question presumes before the great tribulation begins, instead of the beginning of the day of the Lord.

The day of the Lord begins and then a little later the great tribulation begins. The rapture window is in the shaded area in blue.



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Douggg

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Do you think God is incapable of protecting His own people from His wrath? I understand the need for the rapture to occur before the final wrath comes down upon the entire earth when Christ returns, but why would it need to happen any time before that? That's really the question I'm getting at here.
Do you think the rapture is in verses 10-11?

1Thessalonians5:

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Can you find another trumpet of a group of people being called to meet God?
Why would I want to?

You think the last trumpet is the last of only two trumpets. And that is supposed to somehow be a convincing argument? It's clear to me that a reference to the last trumpet implies more than just one other preceding trumpet. I also think acting like the the church being caught up to meet the Lord in the air is somehow a comparable event to when Moses (and only Moses) climbed up a mountain to meet God is rather farfetched as well.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Your question presumes before the great tribulation begins, instead of the beginning of the day of the Lord.

The day of the Lord begins and then a little later the great tribulation begins. The rapture window is in the shaded area in blue.
If you don't want to answer the question then just say so. That would be much better than pretending to answer the question while not coming anywhere near actually answering the question.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Why can you not answer straightforward questions with straightforward answers? It makes you look really bad when you dodge questions like this. Answering a question with a question? Come on. Answer mine first. It's only fair. (I do have an answer to yours, but I refuse to answer it until you answer my question first).

Again, do you think God is incapable of protecting His own people from His wrath? I understand the need for the rapture to occur before the final wrath comes down upon the entire earth when Christ returns, but why would it need to happen any time before that?
 
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Douggg

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Again, do you think God is incapable of protecting His own people from His wrath?
You are making up your own criteria. There will be a large number of believers martyred during the great tribulation. Is that because God is incapable of protecting His own people? So, answer your own question.

The rapture is not an issue of God's capability, as you are trying to make it out to be.

Do you think the rapture is in verses 10-11?

1Thessalonians5:

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
 
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Douggg

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I also think acting like the the church being caught up to meet the Lord in the air is somehow a comparable event to when Moses (and only Moses) climbed up a mountain to meet God is rather farfetched as well.
Go back and read those verses in Exodus 19:10-17, it was not just Moses involved.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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You are making up your own criteria. There will be a large number of believers martyred during the great tribulation. Is that because God is incapable of protecting His own people? So, answer your own question.
Doug, are you even trying to understand what I'm saying? I'm not getting the impression that you're putting any effort into it. Do you think believers being martyred is the same as God's wrath? Clearly, it's not, right? So, I wasn't talking about that. My question was in relation to God's wrath, not in relation to believers being martyred.

The rapture is not an issue of God's capability, as you are trying to make it out to be.
What do you mean by that?

Yes, I do. What is the reason for your question? Is God incapable of protecting us from His wrath while we're on the earth? Like I said before, I can understand needing to be removed from the earth before His final wrath comes down, as Paul described earlier in 1 Thess 5:2-3 and as described in 2 Peter 3:10-12, but why any time before that?
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Go back and read those verses in Exodus 30:10-17, it was not just Moses involved.
You are not reading my posts carefully. Slow down and take your time while reading other people's posts. That way you can avoid embarrassing yourself with your responses that show you did not read the posts carefully.

I said that Moses was the only one to go up the mountain. You are comparing that to the entire church being caught up to meet Christ in the air. The rest of the people were down at the base of the mountain, but only Moses went up the mountain. So, that's why I said you're comparing the church being caught up in the air to Moses climbing a mountain, which I don't think is a valid comparison.

Also, let's not forget that you're claiming that the last trumpet is the last of only two trumpets. And you somehow think that's a convincing argument. I don't think even other people who have similar overall views to yours would agree with you on that.
 
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Douggg

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My question was in relation to God's wrath, not in relation to believers being martyred.
Your question is in relation to God's ability and to protection of God's people during the time when God's wrath is poured out onto the world.

Your question was not in relation to the rapture.

I was pointing out to you that during the time when God's wrath is poured out onto the world, there would be a large number of martyred believers - which is not because that God is incapable. The rapture will have happened before then.

Yes, I do. What is the reason for your question? Is God incapable of protecting us from His wrath while we're on the earth? Like I said before, I can understand needing to be removed from the earth before His final wrath comes down, as is described in 2 Peter 3:10-12, but why any time before that?

You keep coming back to the same issue of questioning God's capability, and not acknowledging that during the time of God's wrath that there will be a large number of believers martyred.

It doesn't say "final" wrath in 1Thessalonians5:9-11. In that passage, it is indicating the rapture is before the time of God's wrath beginning.
 
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Douggg

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I said that Moses was the only one to go up the mountain. You are comparing that to the entire church being caught up to meet Christ in the air. The rest of the people were down at the base of the mountain, but only Moses went up the mountain. So, that's why I said you're comparing the church being caught up in the air to Moses climbing a mountain, which I don't think is a valid comparison.
...and I am pointing out in Exodus 19, it was the entire camp that was called to meet God, and hear Him speak for themselves, assembled by the sounding of a trumpet.

There was the sounding of a trumpet and the voice of God, and the presence of God.

In the rapture, there will be sound of a trump and the voice of the archangel (Jesus) - come up hither.

You are comparing that to the entire church being caught up to meet Christ in the air.

No, I am not comparing Moses climbing up the mountain, as a comparison to the rapture of meeting the Lord in the air.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Your question is in relation to God's ability and to protection of God's people during the time when God's wrath is poured out onto the world.

Your question was not in relation to the rapture.
It's related to the rapture in the sense that I'm asking why it would be necessary to for the rapture to occur before any of God's wrath is poured out. As I said before, I can understand the need for it to happen before the final wrath of God is poured out upon the entire earth by way of fire coming down on the entire earth when Christ returns (2 Peter 3:10-12), but I don't see any reason why it would need to happen before that. God could protect His people from any wrath that occurs before that while we're still on the earth.

I was pointing out to you that during the time when God's wrath is poured out onto the world, there would be a large number of martyred believers - which is not because that God is incapable. The rapture will have happened before then.
There's no reason to think that God should protect believers from being martyred. He can if He wants, but it's not something we should expect Him to do. Believers have been martyred ever since Abel was killed by his brother Cain. But, when it comes to His wrath, we know it's never intended for believers. So, we should expect that believers would be protected from His wrath. And my point is that the only time when we would need to be taken off the earth to be protected from His wrath is when His final wrath comes down at the return of Christ (as described in 1 Thess 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12) and not any time before that.

You keep coming back to the same issue of questioning God's capability, and not acknowledging that during the time of God's wrath that there will be a large number of believers martyred.
What do the martyred believers have to do with what I'm talking about? Nothing. I'm talking about God's wrath. Stop trying to change the subject.

It doesn't say "final" wrath in 1Thessalonians5:9-11. In that passage, it is indicating the rapture is before the time of God's wrath beginning.
You need to look at the context. What wrath did Paul reference previously in that letter?

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

This is the wrath that Paul referred to that the rapture will precede. It doesn't have to say "final" wrath in 1 Thess 5:9 because the context shows that it was the final wrath of God that he had in mind.

Peter wrote about the same wrath and made it quite clear that it will come down on the entire earth.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

This is the wrath that the rapture precedes. Nowhere does scripture teach that the rapture precedes any other wrath besides this wrath that will come down on the entire earth on the day Christ returns.
 
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Douggg

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Also, let's not forget that you're claiming that the last trumpet is the last of only two trumpets. And you somehow think that's a convincing argument. I don't think even other people who have similar overall views to yours would agree with you on that.
But you can't find another place in the bible of the sounding of a trumpet to assemble, gather, people to meet God.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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No, I am not comparing Moses climbing up the mountain, as a comparison to the rapture of meeting the Lord in the air.
Oh, so you're comparing a bunch of people going to the base of a mountain to people being caught up into the air as if those events are basically the same thing. I see. And that's supposed to be convincing somehow?

And, again, you're saying the last trumpet is the last of only two trumpets. I'm amazed that you would think that anyone would be convinced by your arguments.
 
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Douggg

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1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

This is the wrath that Paul referred to that the rapture will precede. It doesn't have to say "final" wrath in 1 Thess 5:9 because the context shows that it was the final wrath of God that he had in mind.

No, not "final" wrath in context, but in context of God's wrath beginning.

Up to the beginning of God's wrath, the world will be saying peace and safety. Saying peace and safety because the world will be thinking it has entered the messianic age. But it will be a false messianic age.



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Spiritual Jew

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But you can't find another place in the bible of the sounding of a trumpet to assemble, gather, people to meet God.
So what? You should be wishing there was another place where that could be found because you're left with the notion that the last trumpet is the last of only two trumpets, which I find to be ridiculous.

I can find another place in scripture where prophetic trumpets sound with there being more than just two of them (obviously, there's seven of them). And one of those seven trumpets (the seventh and last one) describes believers being rewarded at that time. Just like what will happen at the last trumpet. I think only doctrinal bias could prevent someone from discerning that the last trumpet and the seventh trumpet of Revelation are the same.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.....18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

What could the reward be that is given to "thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great" at the seventh trumpet? Could it be the inheritance of the kingdom of God and the receiving of immortal bodies that Paul said will happen at the last trumpet? Yes, I believe so.
 
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Douggg

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And, again, you're saying the last trumpet is the last of only two trumpets. I'm amazed that you would think that anyone would be convinced by your arguments.
Again, you cannot find another trumpet gathering of a group to meet God.

Paul, a Jew, was relating to the call to meet God, according to that experience by his ancestors at Mt. Sinai.

Somehow two gatherings to meet God, at the sound of a trumpet, is not good enough for you. Yet, Jesus was the second man.

1Corinthians15:
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
 
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